It seems like the 7mm-08 can dupe the 6.5 CM ballistic wise and maybe even edge it (haven't looked past 500 yards) . Is it the lighter recoil of the 6.5 or the 30 degree shoulder of the 6.5? Disclaimer: I have no idea what the benefit of a 30 degree shoulder is, maybe less case stretch??

I own both and like both, but I seem to have a greater attachment to the 7-08.

I’m not a gun writer. But the 7mm-08 didn’t have a full scale marketing campaign behind it’s introduction.

6.5CM: Lighter recoil, finer inherent accuracy, less down-range drift with less recoil, more and better factory ammo, and rifles properly twisted out of the box.

I was in my second year of college when the 7-08 appeared, so I should be a candidate for it. I tried, I'm not. I prefer the 6.5 CM.

Good summary, although I like the 7mm-08 and personally prefer it over the 6.5 CM for game larger than deer.

The 150 scenars in .284 will give the 6.5 CM a good fight, no?

7mm-08 started out with factory ammo that sucked. WTG Remington. The CM didn't.

Now the 7mm-08 has some great factory ammo.

What Brad said, plus what Puddle just posted.

The biggest factors haven't been mentioned. Those are the 6.5 creeddmooe was very well marketed and it came about when the internet was mature enough to take advantage of online forums and campaigns. That's a big deal.

Personally I don't have any use for the 6.5 creed. Not to say it's bad or worthless but I just don't own one because I already have an 308win, 30-06, and a 270win. But still it's nice to see the 6.5 become very popular and widespread commercial success. That's a bonus for everyone whether you like the manbun or not.

Because people are coming out of the closet, the 7/08 is less gay.

I thought the 7/08 was pretty dang ghey when it came out and gave it a great big yawn. I've never changed my mind.

Maybe, but doesn't account for everything by a long shot....

Lot's of homo-phoebes on this site... never not revealing.

Whatever man, the cartridge bores the shyt out of me and always has. Plus everybody I've known in the 42 years since it was introduced who held it as a favorite was a great big dorky ass hole so there is that. I'll never own one myself.

[/quote] Whatever man, the cartridge bores the shyt out of me and always has. Plus everybody I've known in the 42 years since it was introduced who held it as a favorite was a great big dorky ass hole so there's another strike. I'll never own one myself.
[/quote]

That's pretty impressive....

Damn... My wife is right... I am a dorky a-hole!

Actually, the 6.5 Creedmoor did NOT get promoted much in 2007, when it appeared, in mainstream magazines and hunting sites on the Internet, because it was designed as a target round, a relatively specialized market.

Instead, it started getting discovered by hunters around 2010, and only after word-of-mouth started getting around did articles and ads specifically directed at hunters start appearing.

But yes, the 6.5 CM has gotten better press than the 7mm-08 did at first, for the reasons stated in previous posts. One biggie was that factory ammo was almost always very accurate--and pretty inexpensive. I've fooled with around eight 6.5 Creedmoors, from the cheapest factory rifles to customs costing 10 times as much, and the WORST accuracy from factory was three shots in an inch at 100 yards. Most shot a lot better.

That's pretty impressive....
[/quote] My prejudices for or against certain cartridges are as valid as any of the cutesy sentimental cartridge musings I hear from the loonies here.

PS. the .257 Roberts bores the living hell out of me too and I won't ever own one because it carries the same name as a stinky little booger eater from my grade school days named Ronnie Roberts. Can't hear the name without thinking of that gross little dork.

Blackheart,

Are you trying to replace Llama Bob?

Maybe it's the people you know, and not the cartridge.

Seriously though, I don't own a 6.5 CM, but I thought I read that the big advantage of the 6.5 CM case over the .308 parent case for the .260 Rem was that the CM case had the same volume but was shorter, so long, pointy bullets would fit in a standard short-action mag. box.

Or did I just mis-remember that?

Plus 1

While I agree, the difference in performance is just not enough for me to justify buying a 6.5 while I have an outstanding 7-08 in a package that I really like.

If I didn't already have the 7-08, & given the attributes of the 6.5 & the ammo available (if I wasn't a handloader), I'd opt for the 6.5 w/o hesitation.

Anybody that thinks a 7-08, for whatever reason, thinks the 7-08 is gay or ghey, or whatever, needs to re-evaluate his gun & shooting knowledge & probably has never done much real hunting.

Much as I love a 270 Win & the 280 Rem, the 7-08 performs just about as well in real life.

And that is a pretty good testament, IMHO.

MM

Didn't the 7mm-08 get its start as a cartridge for Silhouette shooting?

I seem to remember the 7mm-08 slogging along about like the 260 did until Layne Simpson started to champion it.

Funny thing is that I long been a fan of the 7x57, but never got the 7mm-08 bug, but I like both the 6.5x55 and 260 about equally. If somebody had made a stainless 6.5x55 back in 1997 I might never have jumped ship for the 260 and Remington 7SS.

T Don't know who the hell that is but if the cutesy little sentimental musings and boring ballistic gac spouted by loonies in adoring admiration of certain cartridges makes him want to retch we may be related.

No, it didn't make him want to retch, he was an expert and it made him wax poetic and rhapsodically.

Nah, I don't do any real hunting. I just killed six deer, two bucks and four does, in three weeks back in mid Nov. - early Dec., two of them with arrows but it wasn't "real" hunting. One shot apiece. No follow up shots needed but I'm sure I would have done much better if only I'd have used a 7mm-08. Maybe 6 deer with only three shots next year if I were to switch ?

He's been neck and neck with LB for a while now MD. Two peas in a pod if you ask me.

And here's one of those dorky ass holes I spoke of earlier now. Winds blowing like a hurricane here today JG. Good thing you ain't here or you'd have to tie those ears down tight to keep from blowing away. LOL

I would take a 7 MM 08 any day the week twice on Sundays over a 65 cm

I don't know JG. They're both opinionated and more than willing to share, but there's a "technical" difference if you get my meaning.

Is that the best you can do?

When someone resorts to personification of rifle cartridges it makes me laugh, for multiple reasons.

I also love the assertions, with respect to any cartridge, that go along the lines of "well, it's not this" or "well it won't do that". I figure that is the whole point of why it is whatever it is.

I have at least a couple of both, and really like 'em. Truth be know they both are great killers with the right bullets. Anybody with experience with both will tell you that. The only difference is personal preference.

Is that the best you can do ?

I'd like to think I can back up my "opinions" with why I believe what I believe, unlike BH and LB and several others with perpetual diarrhea of the mouth.

Exactly right. Personal preference and one persons preference is as valid as anothers. Truth be told I used a 6.5 CM on two of my deer this year. A 7mm-08 wouldn't have made a bit of difference in the results.

Wheweee. That's impressive. Lets hear it.

If only I'd have used a 7/08 instead. I bet it would have gutted them out and dragged them back to the truck for me too. They both went straight down so it couldn't have done any better there.

They may have gone straight down even harder.

That's much better !

I am really enjoying Mule Deer’s new attitude.

Mule Deer, you sassy!

I like my 7mm/o8. Don’t really consider it
Much of a kicker and it’s good and accurate. Only ever killed deer with it, but that’s most of my centerfire rifles. I wouldn’t turn down a creedmoor though. Can’t we all just like all the different cartridges and get along?

Might bruise more meat if they did. Oh and get this. This is the most amazing and ubelievable part of the whole deal.......


Ready ?



All of my bullets this season were successfully and precisely directed via Leupold !.......


Is that amazing or what ?

I've never owned either. In fact I have never even shot either cartridge, and I have no interest in either at this point in my life. But, the first thing that popped into my mind was the fact that Remington is historically bad at marketing a new cartridge and Hornady seems to be rather good at it. Whether or not that has a thing to do with the way it went down, I dunno...but that's my two cents worth.

I enjoy using a variety of different cartridges and have no problem with anybody else's personal preferences. What will provoke me to drop a comment here and there is when someone says something technically inaccurate or tries to dress up personal bias as a logical argument.

Mine too, 6x36 on a 243 no less. Pigs don't like 95 grain Partitions or 90 grain Accubonds.

Haha. True enough. I have both in the house. And I like them both a lot. They are great performers on game, without much fuss. If I had pick one or the other, I'd go with the 6.5CM. Mostly for the reasons Brad mentioned earlier in the thread.

We took real chances not having SWFA or NightForce aboard !

The 7mm-08 is superior in every possible way.

Because I said so.

And I’ll shank anyone who says otherwise.




P

You are just far too logical, mathman.

I always like seeing what Brad has to say and trust his input. That said, who wants to choose which one goes and which stays? Not this buckaroo. Looks like I NEED a 6.5 creed.

Is the difference in recoil really that noticeable, all other things bring equal?

I try not to listen to anything the chunky little hobbit says and could care less what he thinks about “Reupolds”.

I would even take my 260 rem over the 6.5cm

Truth be told I've had to send a few Leupolds to their repair facility.

I haven't yet and the Vari-XIIc on the other rifle I used to kill two this year is over 20 years old.


Knock on wood.

+1

DF

You eat a lot you poop a lot. I’m happy with my Leupolds.

I own 4 Kimbers and have sent two back. They are all fantastic now. I think the hobbit like Kimbers too, fwiw.

Exactly! Me either. I like most rifles and most chamberings tho, and can't understand the guys who get all bent out of shape over what other guys like or use.

Not much difference. They're basically peas in a pod, IMO. In recoil, ballistics, etc. They both occupy my sweet spot of performance vs recoil.

You should get yourself a 6.5CM. You deserve it.

Hey, by all means pick on the 7mm-08 but leave the fine old .257 Roberts alone. lol

I have had a few Bushnells, a Denver Redfield, a couple old Tascos and a Weaver crap out on me but no Leupolds yet. Scopes work until they don't. Some of those scopes that did crap out were 30+ years old and had always worked fine right up until they didn't.

I like the way you talk, Wrongside. You should talk to my wife for me.

Then again, if I bought another rifle, would she notice?

Hmmmm….

Definitely agree about that sweet spot. Easy on powder, the ears, and hard on deer. In a nice trim package too.

Unfortunately my Nikon Monarch Gold that had been very solid for years has developed a rattle.

I always looked at the 7-08 as another version of the 7x57 Mauser, just slightly not as good. However since I got a Model 7 7-08 it gets all the use the 7x57 did and brass is far easier to make or get. Doesn't hurt that the 7-08 is 2 pounds lighter than my 7x57.

Simple preference?

That's usually not a good sign but you know I had an old Japanese Tasco World Class that developed a rattle and it kept on working fine for years.

My buddy’s Mom dropped her rifle getting out of her tower stand one year. Rifle fell about 10’ and landed on the scope, a Leupold of some variety. She asked me to check the zero for her and I obliged. The picture was still clear and the scope held zero. Can’t complain about that.

2 years ago I was on my first elk hunt with two of my friends and my buddy busted his butt while he has his rifle slung on his shoulder. The scope landed on a rock or something hard and the elevation knob was dented. He was worried about the scope so we checked zero. Still spot on. He can’t get the cover off the elevation turret now, so he says it will just have to stay zeroed like it is.

In this case it is a loose lens and causes groups like buckshot.

I thought you'd say that, being a poetic kind of guy yourself.

Can you get service on those from Nikon anymore ? I have a Nikon I like a great deal and have wondered about that now that they're out of the scope business.

I haven't yet tried to find out. They used to be bitchy about purchase receipts and there's no way in hell I have that from 16+ years ago.

My safe has a Creed, a Swede, a 7-08 and a Roberts, all racked peacefully, sitting side by side among their safe mates.....

Have never heard them fighting. And they don't "snoot" each other about their Brux, Hart and Shilen barrels, equal opportunity and diversity rules.

I will say the Creed is about the most forgiving of the lot, shooting about any and every load combo well.

They all shine when fed what they like, the Creed being the least picky.

But, I like them all, have killed stuff with them all. And the critters they've shot, die.

DF

Nice work, I had no idea New York's bag limits were that liberal.

Only an issue if you get caught....

DF

So a Creed, a Swede, and a Roberts walk into a bar.......

Sorta the same way that Big Green hosed over the .280 Rem. way back when.

I have Creedmoor and 7mm-08’s, both kill great if you put bullets in their engine rooms. Recoil is about the same with bullets of the same weight.

DF

must be winter and most of the hunting seasons are over in America for normal big game animals ? so its my cartridge is better than yours and i killed more deer than you did time on the keyboard ? WTF all these cartridges will kill game and bragging how many animals you killed is childish ,i bet the peta people are listening ? what we need on this site is a post from Big Stick !

That's pretty impressive....
[/quote]

By God, ain't it?

Bigger shoulders, (.462” vice .454” ),
30 degree shoulder angle, for less pressure variance.
OAL fits in a 2.8” magazine better with higher SD ( long ) bullets ,
without poking so much back into the cartridges precious powder space.

What more could you ask ?

I’d like one built on a 3.34” magazine , Sort of a 6.5-280 Improved 30, but with the CM taper & neck-shoulder dimensions.

Not quite a 6.5 Wby RPM , but almost.

Maybe in a 3.5” magazine, Ya Follow

Haven’t you heard? The hobbit doesn’t post in this forum anymore. He and Llama Bob are calling each other names in another forum.

I like the 6.5CM and the 7-08 also. However, when in the field I prefer the Swede, or the .280…..

I was hoping for a little more technical gack.

I have been shooting 139 gr scenars in my 6.5 and am now starting work with 150 gr scenars in my 7-08 Varmint Special.

My 6.5 is a pleasure to shoot and capable of hitting 4" sporting clays at 550 yards.

Comparing drops with the same type of bullet and similar velocities, the 7-08 is quite impressive without the fanfare. Very similar recoil.

The first 7-08 I got my hands on was a birthday present for my then 9 year old son. It is a Browning X Bolt micro medallion that shoots really well. He has killed many whitetails with it and we even shot steel out to 550. He is in med school now but will never sell that rifle since he still enjoys shooting it.

Don’t get me started on the 280 Rem / 7mm Express ! 🤬

I’m thinking of rechambering one , or more to 280 RPM,

243, 250-3000, 260, 6.5 Swede, 7mm08, don't leave room in the safe for the CM.

g

That's bang on.

I read this entire thread just to see if anyone challenged the “inherent accuracy” comment in the third post.

Well it was designed as a target round, as has already been said in this thread. And I think Mule Deer basically confirmed what Brad said.

Two of my three favorite rifles are Ruger Hawkeye Africans. They are chambered in 6.5x55 and 275 Rigby so I have no need nor want the Creed or the 7-08. The other being a CZ. varmint in 204. Besides if I bought a 6.5 Creed I couldn’t chit my buddy about his all the time!

It varies year to year depending on leftover doe tags and a second draw but most years you can shoot at least 5 legally without going for leftover tags from a second draw or any transferred tags if you kill at least two of them with arrows or black powder. We are allowed to transfer two doe tags per season so best case scenario you get 2 archery/black powder tags, one of which is good for either sex, a rifle season buck tag, 2 doe tags good in any season, 2 transferred doe tags good in any season from a wife/dad/kid that doesn't hunt or want them for some reason {lots of wives/girlfriends who don't really hunt get licenses and doe tags for their old man} and 2 more doe tags in the second draw. So yeah, in total you could legally take up to 2 bucks and 7 does per season.

I still have a couple of early boxes of 6.5 Creedmoor from Hornady. Not only was it accurate, but Hornady listed the load data on the box. That allowed hand loaders to dupe the factory ammo. IIRC, they changed that data after a while.I think they reduced the load. Can’t remember the details exactly, but it made it easy for guys with the 120 and 140 A-Max.

I enjoy the high BC in lower grain weights in the 6.5 vs 7. The recoil and shoot ability seem slightly enhanced without detriment to the ability to kill. All this with more factory ammo options & slightly enhanced inherent accuracy? Yep.

I’m glad I live in Texas where we don’t have to worry about all that mess. You buy your license and the tags are on it. You get 5 but each county has its own regulations.

What part of NY do you live/hunt in Blackheart? My mom’s family lived in a little farm town near Cayuga Lake. Pretty country up there.

All true, except the down-range drift part. Ballistically, the 7-08 matches and exceeds the 6.5 CM as distance stretches out.

I'm glad I live here because in 45 years of hunting I've never once paid a dime for a lease/trespass fee and I hunt in several different Counties on both public and private land every season. Once you get used to the system here it's not complicated at all. I have hunted right along the shore of Cayuga lake near the Town of Lansing in the past but not in recent years. I think the last time was 2006. I have several sets of antlers on the wall from there.

No help with Scenars but 150 eldx with Big Game is a killer. Elk deer and antelope.




P

But it's just a modern version of the 7x57.

I have only shot one but in those 20 rounds made me might maybe want to get one in the future,i do have a 7x57.

+1

I’ve never paid for a guide or a lease in TX either, but I understand that I may be the exception and not the rule.

My uncle still has a couple pieces of farm land and lives up there. I guess somebody killed a big one off his place a couple years ago and word got out. The next year he had bow stands all around the perimeter of his 80 acre farm and trespassers to boot.

I do wish we had more public land here, as I do love to wander.

I'm pretty sure with the three words after what you bolded that Brad was essentially saying less down-range drift for a given recoil level while emphasizing that one can get less drift and less recoil with some 6.5mm loads compared to similar 7mm loads.

i think the 6.5 Creed is a very nice desirable round. Wife shoots a 7-08 and I shoot either a 7-08AI or a 243 win, so I think we've got the 6.5 covered. Lately, I've been very happy with the 243 win with a Shilen barrel and 95 grain Nosler BTs. If less is enough, it's really more. I have gathered up a really good supply of both 6mm and 7mm bullets over the years, so it would be a little silly for me to change and start over with dies, bullets, brass, etc, at this stage. Happy hunting to you all.

When it comes to deer/pigs a 243 and a 95 grain Ballistic Tip has been a winner in my camp.

Less drift for a given recoil level is true of the 6.5 CM, but that’s not the same as saying less drift with less recoil. Cherry picking loads isn’t useful when comparing the potential of various cartridges, since almost any outcome can be produced with the right loads. The 6.5 CM can produce slightly less drift with equal recoil when the 7-08 is loaded down, but the 7-08 can produce less drift with a bit more recoil when ballistic performance is maximized for both.

I've been a 260 Rem fan since it was introduced. For a dozen years I used one for deer, coyotes, and prairie dogs. But if I were starting over.....the 1 in 8 twist, cartridge designed for low drag bullets, and excellent factory ammo for the Creedmoor would win me over. I've rebarreled a .260 (see the part about prairie dogs), and if it ever needs another barrel I'll go Creedmoor.....but that probably won't happen as I now own a dedicated varmint rifle. .260 is reserved for deer and coyotes now.

What he said.

Just to be clear, the differences between the 6.5 CM and 7-08 are pretty minor. I’ve owned and shot multiples of each, and they are both about as much bang as you can get for the recoil/powder buck.

Yep, about the same dang thing. I bought a pair of Howa Alpines in 6.5 and 7mm-08 for my kids. The 6.5 has a slight advantage in recoil with equal weight bullets, but for normal hunting ra ges they are effectively the same thing.

Funny as some here knocked the 6.5 Creedmoor at first. Touted the 7-mm08. Now are 6.5 preachers... LOL

Average guy kills critters every year at under 300. And if elk are involved 7mm-08 is the winner. From what I've seen them eldx is the last elk bullet I'd count on. I've killed elk and deer in the 6.5CM .260rem and 7mm-08 with 140gr Partitions. Pert much same same but the -08 punches a bigger hole if that matters to a guy. That lil 6.5 is amazing as [bleep] tho pound fer pound, recoil fer recoil, powder grains fer powder grains.

I do not understand this… what makes that funny?

fyi, I have two 270s, a.257 Roberts and two 7x57s.

My two youngest sons are into 1000 yard shooting. If I were to get into it, I would consider the 7mm/08, 180gn bullet in a fast twist barrel. If I remember correctly, Big Stick posted some ballistic charts awhile back showing the 7mm/08 overtaking the 300 Win Mag at 100-1200 yds. Seems a good bang for the buck.

Few years ago I went in to Sportmans with Intention to buy 7-08 or 6.5 CM. The deciding factor came in when I looked at ammo selection, quantity and $. This was 3 years ago? before the hoarding.
Easy decision, and I reload.

Yep

I recall early in the days of high power metallic silhouette competition, around the late 70s, the 7-08 was all the rage. Driver was enough power to reliably knock over rams at 500 meters, short action length to save weight and less recoil than the .308. The 7-08 seemed to be more inherently accurate than the 7x57, which had not yet been born again.

Never heard any discussion or comment about factory ammo as nearly all of it sucked back then. Silhouette shooting has less buzz these days, but the 7-08 has remained on its own merits.

I'm betting there are loads of hunters who love the 6.5CM who aren't exactly "long range afficionados". There is a great selection of bullets for any and all intentions, it's a light kicker, it's extremely accurate, wide variety of factory ammo,etc. If one would take the blinders off, there is an awful lot to like about the cartridge.

Not I'll pull a "badass" on you guys.......my buddy's have MLD ground, and I cull whitetail does for them evey year (local mexicans love me). Killed almost 70 in the last 3 years with a wide variety of 6.5mm bullets. Moral to the story is there are a wide variety of reliable bullets that kill the crap out of deer sized game. That doesn't include the 100 or so hogs I "tested" bullets on, and they're much tougher than any whitetail IMO/IME.

46.5grs of H4350 and the 150 Scenar shoots excellent from my Tikka 7mm08. I’ve not killed anything with the Scenar except steel but from 100-800yds I’m definitely the weak link.

Good to see you posting here brother. I can't imagine how crazy life has been for you of late.

Just takes one slot.

Bigger safe?

DF

I tried to like the 7-08 for a few years. Remington 700 Mountain Rifle, tried a lot of different combinations of bullets and powder trying to find "that" load. I could get it to group pretty good at 100 yards, but out past 200 yards was a crap shoot once the barrel started warming up.

I've had 5 rifles chambered in 6.5 CM, two of them Howas and three Remington 700's. Every one of those rifles was accurate out to 500 yards, which was as far as I could shoot, and that was with a heated up barrel and a variety of different bullet and powder combinations.

Now, it's probably unfair to compare one rifle to five, and I'm sure that if I tried more rifles in 7-08 I'd find at least one that shot well. But, my experiences with the 6.5 CM have been so good that I see no need to try another 7-08.

Yep. The small-cased 6.5mm rounds are sweethearts for medium game, much like the 7mm-08 and .257Rob. The animals don’t really care about such slight differences, but for some odd reason, hunters often do.

We're all ears/eyes here - care to elaborate?

SKane,

One of the interesting things about the Campfire is how so many members think a vote's taking place. They want to place their vote ASAP, without providing any reason, apparently thinking the 6.5 Creedmoor will be banned if they "win the election."

"The brudder-in-law has XXXXX - says it's the best"

LOL

The reason for starting this thread was to dig into the marketing vs ballistics and to have conversation.

My conclusion: the 6.5 CM has an easy go button with factory ammo and out of the box accuracy with factory rifles. The 7-08 can end up at the same place (and maybe further along) but the shooter has to work a little to get there. Isn't that the fun part?

Edit: like I said. I have both clamberings and love both

This is hilarious.

I gotta admit, a thread arguing a 6.5 Creedmoor against a 7mm-08, could be the definition of rifle looney-ism. They are functionally equivalent (and both outstanding, btw) yet opinions are strong, on both sides, that one is ‘better’.

It does make the campfire a cool place to hang out. It would only be better if same discussion were around a real fire….with a good cigar.

I think you've hit on something JJ. I think people tend to like cartridges that have been accurate for them personally, but the fact is, accuracy has more to do with the rifle and ammo than the cartridge.

Seems like the 6.5 CM has been the beneficiary of a lot of accurate rifles and ammo., as far as people gravitating toward it.

The 7/08 has never been very popular around here, meaning you don't find many rifles chambered for it on gun shop racks nor much selection of ammo on the shelves. What ammo you do see is always higher priced than the equivalent in more popular rounds like .30-06, .308, .270 and............



You guessed it, 6.5 Creedmoor.


Given those facts the Creedmoor is just the more likely and practical choice for most hunters looking for a short action deer rifle/cartridge, particularly if not into reloading, which the vast majority are not.

Ta ,Da

458 Lott rules.Any one who does not use one for hunting deer must be a metro-sexual.Just sayin!!

So now there are two obvious morons. What a surprise. LOL

I have always considered the 7-08 a 270 Win short. I have enough 270's and supplies am not interested in the 7-08. The ones I have played with have found other happy homes.

I had a Bergara HMR in 6.5 Creed. Thinking I would really enjoy getting into the LR shooting. Played around with it, but the LR bug did not stick. It certainly was an easy button.

That easy button is IMO why it is more popular, in addition to the support from Hornady. Over the last decade Hornady has certainly been a better run company than Remington.

I have a Husqvarna 6.5x55 with a 1:9 twist barrel that I really enjoy hunting with. If the rifle was chambered for 6.5 Creed, I would like it just as much.

Jordan,
Just curious, what load are you using in the 7-08 for less drift ? I’ve been using the 156 Berger’s at 2620-2650 fps out of my Barrett 24” barrel 6.5 Creedmoor

I’ve been contemplating a 7-08 also. I assume 180 Berger’s ?

I’ve worked with and been around about a half dozen of each, and precision has been about equivalent between the 6.5 CM and 7-08. One of each has struggled to maintain MOA with 3-shot groups, requiring some load development, and the other five of each chambering have easily achieved MOA for 3 and even 5-shot groups with several loads, with the best loads in a couple 6.5s and a couple 7-08s holding consistent 0.5-0.75 MOA with 5-shot groups.

It’s not a large enough sample size to make any definitive claims about inherent accuracy, but there it is.

IME, they’ve worked very well even on large game. Of course, appropriate bullets have been used.

I’m mostly still using up my supply of 162 AM in 7-08, but I’ve played a little with the 195 Berger at 2475 fps and the 180 ELD at ~2600 fps from 22” barrels. I’m also shooting the 147 ELD at 2650-2700 fps from my 21-26” barrelled 6.5 CMs.

I have both the 6.5 CM and a 7-08. Not much difference on paper or in the field.
Have a 280AI and a 7 Rem Mag also. They all do pretty much the same thing.


Most of the common rounds we use are more alike than they are different.

I hunt in PA so you are pretty good from 223 to 338 as long as you can hit a pie plate at 100 yards for big game.

Man, there’s a lot of people signing up for a shanking.




P

Either "would be a good choice for women, kids or men of small stature"















Been reading and holding my breath for pages.
No one beat me to it!😊😊😊😊

I'm about 6' 2" and the scale just read 224. Do I have to sell my 6.5 now?

Yeah, I'm same height and about 5 pounds less than that, do I need to sell my 7-08 AND my 243 win?

For most practical purposes, claiming a significant difference between the 7mm-08 and 6.5 CM is really splitting hairs, although we love to do just that!

I guess I don't understand the Ill will against any particular rifle cartridge. I love the 6.5 CM and don't own one. Likely never will, but never say never. I don't see anyone anywhere twisting anybody's arm to switch or try different cartridges. And the introduction of a newer cartridge design doesn't take anything away from what older cartridges can and have done.

If you're happy with what you've got, then be happy. I don't care if you shoot a 38-55 or a 7mm Patriot, or a phased plasma rifle. Or, for that matter, even the 30-06.
If you're good with the .243, or the 45-70, and been good for a lifetime, then you're good.

But...
If you're new to rifles, and need something to punch steel or fur and do it well, with no fuss, the 6.5 CM is likely the best avenue to success in it's class.

If you live for the .270 vs 30-06 articles of the 1970s I hope you have some stashed in your old reading pile

Mathman you should be fine, it is the little blokes who seem to need to compensate

ooo la la, where can I get one of them phased plasma rifles? That's gotta be better than all this legacy crap...

Anybody wanna bet that there are more shooters today that been in the game for less than 10 years, than all other shooters combined?

Just a hunch on my part, but I'd put $50 on it with a handshake...

They're on GunBroker.
But the seller only accepts Galactic Credits, and only ships via Universe Parcel Service (the big brown space ship) to your Galactic Weapons Licensee.

I'm 6'7" and 375. And I'll turn 64 on Monday. If I started today, and burned my money, I couldn't do more with another cartridge than I did with a .243 before I was 30.

For the most part, killin' whitetails is not much of a test for bullets.............................

Just sayin'.

MM

I’m 6’3” and 250 but have never liked shooting heavy recoiling rifles. A typical weight 30/06 when shooting off a bench and for more than a few rounds is about as much as I care for. I’ll shoot 12 gauge clays loads up to a couple hundred at a time or a box or two of heavy waterfowl loads no problem but I’m not to crazy about heavy recoiling rifles off a bench. Heavy recoiling handguns bother me less. Maybe biomechanics as I have really large hands and long arms even for my height. My hands tend to swallow up most of handgun frame and my long arms I think act as more of a shock absorber compared to someone with shorter arms. I’ve just never liked heavy recoil directly into my shoulder pocket.

6’0”, 231 but I’m working on getting to the teens.

The lighter the recoil the better I shoot.




P

i agree at my older age now i no longer enjoy bench shooting the bigger cartridges anymore, matter fact i had a Bat action 6.5x 284 Norma bench rifle that i shot well and was in the Master division FTR 600 yd. class but shooting laying down that recoil was starting to be to much so i had it rechambered to a 6.5 Creedmoor . i have been thinking about making this Bat action bench rifle a switch barrel now either a 6 BR or a 25 BR just because then this bench rifle will have even less recoil . > another reason the the 6.5 Creedmoor is more popular is the name Creedmoor it is a neat name plus that name was in the Rocky movies also .

If 6.5 creed is ghey what the hell, I have a 6mm creed. Is that more ghey?

i gotta say this > dike cartridge just a joke.

Maybe not, but it's way better than lip service. You must also have missed the "hogs" part. Just sayin......

You and everyone else on the planet. I never visited with David Tubb and had him reference using a 30-378.

Years ago, I worked with a fellow who lived in a remote part of the county where the residents pretty much did what they wanted to, without worrying about getting caught. This man admitted to killing a deer whenever he wanted fresh meat, which according to him was rather often. Being curious, I asked him what gun he used, and he said a 22 rifle. I told him that I didn't care what he did on his own land, but that he should use a bigger cartridge than that. He quit working with us, and I lost touch with him for several years. When I next saw him, he told me that he'd taken my advice and started using a bigger rifle, and that I had been right, the bigger cartridge did kill better. The bigger cartridge he'd starting using was a 22 Magnum.

I tell that story to say this............whether or not a 22 Magnum killed deer any better than a 22 LR is not the point, the point is that the guy perceived that it did, just as we often perceive that a certain cartridge is "better" than another, based on our experiences. My late brother thought the 7-08 was the cat's meow when it came to killing whitetails, just as I believed the 270 Winchester was for many years. Either of those will kill any whitetail deer that ever walked, and that is etched in stone What is also etched in stone is that other cartridges are just as capable of doing that, with such things as less recoil, a bigger selection of rifles, and a better choice of ammo...........and that is where the 6.5 CM really stands out, and why it has become so popular. It doesn't really matter whether it's better than anything else, it's the perception that it is that people see.

I like the 6.5 CM, and own two of them. Both shoot very well, and are very easy to work up loads for. But, I also shoot and like other cartridges as well. I still consider the 270 to be the perfect deer cartridge. I hunt with a 243 as much as I do with a 6.5 CM, and I still think the 308 is a better round for long range shooting. But, since this is a discussion about why the 6.5 gets more attention than a 7-08, it should be rather obvious.

I didn't miss a thing...............I just let that one ride.

But there's little bitty hogs & then there's a few real hogs................no idea, nor do I care what size hogs they were. Probably a mix. But then again, you must be one bullet testing, killing machine.

Rock on dude.

The point it, citing whitetails as a testing bed for bullets is the next thing to no testing at all.

MM

Families can be fed, tribes kept in meat, trophy walls covered and arks filled with creatures slain with the lowly 243 Winchester. Why we debate the usefulness of cartridges of greater caliber and velocity, I do not know.

With all that being said, it matters more than punching holes in paper, since most of the folks sitting around this virtual campfire are indeed "deer" hunters, even if they hunt elk, bear and/or elephants.

Montana Man,

So where to do you draw the line on "bigger than whitetail" cartridges?

It’s the new 7mm RM.

Oh the tales that were told of the 7emem. Lol. “Shoots flat for about 5 hunnert, then raises up a bit” 😂Creed bro seems right on it’s heels for gun counter claims that defy physics and belief.


Both fine cartridges obviously, the humor however can’t be denied.

Here’s an honest question and not trolling for arguments. I always hear how easy deer are to kill. Living in Michigan I’m a deer hunter as far as bigger game goes. I’ve only killed one bear, that was with a 45/70 and he ran about 60 yards. I have zero experience with other big game so maybe deer are easy to kill as “big game” goes IDK. It’s never made sense to me though reading how easy deer are to kill.

A typical deer double lung shot low and tight behind the front leg with a fairly big deer gun say .308 Win or 30/06 ect is going to run 20-50 yards in my experience. I watched my son shoot a few with a .223 and they still ran about the same distance albeit with a lesser blood trail based on a small sample size. Occasionally they drop in their tracks and very rarely they might go a 100 yards shot like that. If you shoot them poorly they run back into a swamp or other thick cover and odds are you won’t find them or it will be a major tracking job and a some luck if you do.

I can’t imagine that other similar sized North American or even African Plains game would be all that different or tougher. Punch a halfway decent bullet through both lungs and I’d think anything will die fast but if you don’t you have a challenge on your hands even if it’s a deer.

I think people are referring to the fragility of their physical build, not their tenacity for life.

LastLemming,

In my experience "similar sized North American or even African Plains game" are not different or tougher. Have killed a bunch of both, and been beside hunting partners who killed quite a few too.

This is not just my opinion. The late Finn Aagaard, an experienced African hunter from his youth and then as a PH for a number of years, wrote that blue wildebeest (basically elk-sized, and considered by many the toughest to kill plains game animal) shot through the lungs with bullets from 6.5mm to .375 in caliber went about the same distance before falling, as long as the bullet penetrated and expanded sufficiently. (Most of Finn's early experience took place when cup-and-core bullets predominated, so the 6.5s tended to use bullets around 160 grains, but many of today's 6.5 bullets weighing much less will penetrate even deeper.)

Can give plenty of specific examples backing up Finn, involving modest-velocity cartridges less than .30 caliber, that I've witnessed on both African and North American big game. But my main point is that many hunters' opinion of "killing power" is based on what they believe a certain caliber and bullet would "should" do, rather than actual results.

One example came from the late Allen Day, who started going on guided hunts for "trophy" big game relatively late in his too-short life. He once posted that he'd killed "almost 10 bull elk," all with either the .30-06 (which he started with) or the .300 Winchester Magnum. He said all the bulls shot with the .30-06 traveled at least 100 yards before falling, while the .300-shot elk never went more than 50 yards.

Aside from this being a small sample (what is "almost 10"?), it is contrary to my experience. I have killed more elk with the .30-06 than any cartridge, and have also killed them not only with the .300 Winchester Magnum but the .300 WSM and Weatherby. None shot with the .30-06 went more than 50 yards before falling--and that includes my biggest bull, both in antlers and weight, which went about 20 yards after being shot at 250 yards with a 180-grain Trophy Bonded Tip. (And come to think of it, none of the elk Eileen and I have killed with various smaller cartridges have gone more than 50 yards either.)

It has always seemed a little odd to me that so many Norwegians and Swedes could kill moose very effectively with the 6.5x55, yet similar cartridges aren't nearly enough for elk. Now, those moose are smaller than some North American moose, more like Shiras than Canadian or Alaska-Yukon in size--and moose also don't tend to go as far as elk when hit "around the edges." But the do tend to die just as quickly as when hit with much larger cartridges, as the famous Swedish study of over 8000 moose kills indicates.

John,
I have taken many many wildebeest, zebra, and oryx, all of which are considered pretty sturdy. It doesn’t seem to matter if I use a 270 or a Big 7. With good placement they go 25-45 paces and fall over. Hit a little less optimally they might go 65-75 paces. Hit poorly they go miles.
Have been with many hunters shooting the same animals who used 300’s and 338’s and the results are the same with the only difference being that the cartridges with more recoil always cause the shooters’ marksmanship to deteriorate.
This year will be packing a 6.5 wildcat and expect results just like my 270.
Rick
PS I think a 6.5 CM with 120 monos would produce great results.
PS #2 I visited with Allen Day and he was a believer in the magnums. He especially liked the 338 and 416 Rem both of which were Echols Legend models. He was a far gone lover of fine rifles. I had one of his for a time and have handled several others. He made some trips to Africa but I don’t think there were that many. He was a really nice fellow.

Do Tell ! Details please
RinB 270 like 6.5 wildcats are intriguing … 🧐

Rick,

My experience is pretty much the same--especially after hunters with .300 and .338 magnums shot for a week or two. (Eileen and I have taken wildebeest, zebra and gemsbok with cartridges including the 7x57, .308 and .30-06 without any problems, with various bullets.)

A rare exception was a young guy on his first big game hunt of any kind, who used a .338 WM with 225 AccuBonds and killed his first 10 or so animals with zero problems, including several kudu and wildebeest. But he then wanted some blue wildebeest hides without holes in the body, so started trying for head shots. Dunno if the problem was "accumulated recoil" or just not enough knowledge of exactly where to hold, but he ended up chasing a couple around.

One of the other guys on the same month-long cull-hunt shot a blue WB behind the shoulder with a 140 AB with a 7mm-08, and it went around 50 yards before keeling over.

I have heard Allen Day was a really nice guy, but never met him. However, I do know he bitched to Nosler about the performance of 225 AccuBonds from a .338 Winchester on a safari he made--during the same year the guy I went on the cull with did so well with them. Nosler invited Allen to the factory, and tested some of his handloads in the same media they then used for every lot of bullets that went out the door. Allen's penetrated the same as usual. He then started telling them they were running their business all wrong, in ways other than making bullets--and if I recall correctly, offered to straighten them out.

Thanks for the feedback.

I look forward to your articles, your one of a few professional writer that speaks from experience rather than paid advertising. I’m looking forward to doing what will probably be a one time plains game hunt for my 50th birthday. I hate the idea of having to get vaxed. I see it as a mostly political statement so would rather not get lumped in with the vaxed. If/when I book a hunt it will be for Gemsbok, Kudu, Zebra, and Blue Wildebeest. I plan on hunting with my SAKO Classic 30/06 with Barnes 168 TTSX and mixing in a Ruger #1 300 H&H and 200 grain Swift A-frame.

I think your right and appreciate your experience. I can imagine an elk near dark at a few hundreds yards distance putting it down right their or very near would be an advantage over walking a few hundred yards with a flashlight and the having to look for hair or blood.

I can see a tougher bullet being ideal for larger framed critters. Most decent bullets will punch through some bone and drive through the lungs. Some of the biggest blood trails that I’ve seen on deer have been at our typical close ranges with the lowly nearly archaic 30-30. I get what you’re saying though. At longer ranges and near thick cover hunting a larger bigger boned animal a cartridge big enough and loaded with a bullet to feel comfortable getting a pass through shot and break down bones makes a lot of sense. Unfortunately for most of us big game is generally deer and as you said it doesn’t take a lot to shoot through both sides of a deer.

Long long ago I thought a 6.5 on a semi blown out 270/30-06/280 case would be the best trophy mule deer, sheep cartridge of all time. I know it won’t be any better than a slightly long throated 270 but decided to scratch that old itch when a pal got the reamer and dies made up.

When I first had that thought there weren’t the great bullets that are made today. I could spend a fortune on worldwide hunting with it and a 9.3-62 or 375.

John,

I have no line & the comment was not about any cartridge at all; I simply stated that drawing conclusions about bullet performance on whitetails is pretty worthless.....................UNLESS all you ever intend to hunt with that bullet is very light, small boned animals of similar size.

Most any bullet works quite well on whitetails.

As you, & everyone else here knows as well, that same bullet(s) that might be absolutely devastating death beyond compare on whitetails, may very well be an equally devastating disaster on elk, or moose, or even large mule deer, just to make the point.

MM

Interesting how the op was answered and how the thread has evolved in the same age old discussions.

I have no where near the experience or MD or RinB. But I have found most rodeos involve poor shot placement rather than cartridges or even bullets. As long as the bullet is somewhat matched for the job at hand.

Been in on hundreds of deer over the last 40 years. 22 to 45 caliber, archery and muzzleloader.
Half a dozen black bear with archery and 338-06's.
Around three dozen elk with 243 to 375 caliber and archery.
A couple of caribou with 270.
Another 40 years of antelope 22-338 caliber and archery.
18 African critters Impala to buffalo with 300, 338, 375 and 404 J.

Shot placement trumps.

Last Lemming,

Those two rifles will work fine--but as I have mentioned, some hunters start flinching when using a .300 magnum in Africa, even though they shot one well here. The reason is far more shooting--including a shot every day or two to check the zero, after bouncing around in a Toyota Land Cruiser.

Eileen planned to take blue wildebeest, zebra, and kudu on her first safari--though a kudu was a definite 3rd. Her primary big game rifle at the time was a .270 Winchester, and she'd heard African animals were very tough, so decided to take my NULA .30-06--despite having taken elk and moose handily with the .270. Back then (1999) Winchester Fail Safes were the most consistently accurate of the "petal" type bullets, so I worked up a load with 165s, which worked great on a big kudu and gemsbok (which she hadn't planned on, but there it was) on the first day of the safari. It was also worked great on a big blue wildebeest and red hartebeest a few days later. But by the time the shooting safari ended (we also spent some time touring afterward) she remarked that she could have done just as well with her .270 and the right bullets.

Her second safari took place in 2008, and by then she'd developed recoil headaches, so had switch from a NULA .270 to a custom .308 Winchester that weighed a little more. She use 150-grain Nosler E-Tips, which worked fine on a big zebra stallion, as well as several other animals--including a bushbuck where the bullet went through a Spanish prickly pear before it hit the buck. The bullet expanded before it hit the middle of the chest as the bushbuck faced her, yet still penetrated through the chest into the abdomen, dropping the buck right there.

Since then she's become ever more recoil sensitive, to the point where we switched to a 130 TTSX at about the same velocity as the 150 E-Tip, 2850 fps, and had a small muzzle brake put on the .308. It still kills bigger-than-deer game the same way, the last a cow elk that weighed close to 500 pounds. The cow stood quartering toward her at 250 yards, and the bullet broke the left front leg just above the big joint, ending up under the hide in the middle of the right ribs. The cow staggered 20-25 yards before it crumpled, obviously dead on its feet.

One of my companions on a 2007 safari killed a big bull gemsbok with the wimpy .270 Winchester and a 150-grain Partition, which like the blue wildebeest another guy took with the 140 AccuBond and a 7mm-08, went about 50 yards.

Have also seen plenty of those same animals go a LONG way after being shot in a slightly wrong spot with much larger cartridges. Perhaps the most extreme example was a gemsbok shot around the diaphragm (which isn't all that far back on gemsbok) with a .375 H&H and a 270-grain Barnes TSX. That involved a two-mile tracking job before he put another in the right place.
That contradicts the theory that a bigger magnum bullet helps when the shot isn't perfectly placed, but have seen too many similar incidents over the years involving "magnum" bullets that weren't placed very far off that also didn't kill well. One was a bull elk hit through the bottom of the heart with a 200-grain Partition from a .300 Weatherby Magnum. It would have died eventually, of course, but managed to go uphill for around 100 yards before another shot put it down.

Finn Aagaard once wrote that in his opinion a magnum MIGHT make a difference if a shot is off perhaps 2" from the ideal placement, but not otherwise. Some years after reading that, I tend to agree.

Am not saying you shouldn't take your .300, because it can be useful to take a second rifle. But the .30-06 with 168 TSXs is plenty for plains game.

I've killed almost 50 of those too, several have weighed over 300lbs live weight. They're not any harder to kill than a whitetail, IME, when a good bullet is put in the right place. Yes, that includes 6.5CM's.

JG,

That's my experience as well, and both Eileen and I have killed mule deer weighing 350-400 pounds (which overlaps elk size) using "deer cartridges." Have also seen 350-400 pound elk dropped neatly with cartridges like the .243 Winchester and .257 Roberts.

On a hunt here in southwestern Montana 3-4 years ago, some friends and I were after deer and elk. The country was a mix of open spaces, and fingers of thick timber on north slopes of ridges.

Two guys were shooting 6.5 Creedmoors, and both got shots at elk. One was using 140-grain Nosler AccuBonds, and encountered a 6x6 bull while hiking through thick timber to get to a glassing point. He shot the bull at 50 yards, which went 30-40 yards before keeling over--and the bullet exited.

The other guy (an experienced long-range shooter) shot at a bull at 450 yards, and hit it. But despite a blood trail the was never found. I don't remember what bullet he was using, but obviously nobody knows exactly where it landed. Was it the fault of the bullet, the cartridge or the shooter?

Right on MD. I have no clue on elk since I've killed only one in my life. I do remember specifically asking you about African game before I started going over the first time to hunt plains game. You answered something to the same effect as hitting them correctly with the right bullet and they will die like any other animal. Once again your experience was valuable, and correct, as I wound up killing about 50 of them over the years and all but 3-4 died exactly as you prescribed. The others were the results of bad hits, but that allowed me the privilege of following along with the miraculous African trackers who found them and we got them killed in spite of my piss poor shooting.

Seems to be a trend......and if I'm not mistaken Rin said much the same thing.

So, was there consensus ever reached on the original question, why the 7mm-08 doesn't get the attention that the 6.5 CM does?

More variety of rifles being cataloged for the 6.5 CM, wider distribution of factory ammo, less expensive factory ammo, at least before the pandemic hit, and for some reason 6.5 CM factory ammo seems generally to be accurate enough that handloading and subsequent load development isn't necessary to get MOA accuracy from most factory built rifles?

Some years ago, I opined that I'd believe that the 6.5 CM would achieve mainstream status when rifles and ammo was being sold at Walmart. Since then I seen both rifles, the CVA Cascade and Savage Axis, and Winchester/Olin ammo for sale at the local WMs, so I'm convinced that the 6.5 CM has achived sufficient momentum to sustain itself for some time to come.

Since getting my first 6.5 CM in 02/14, I've only bought or put together 3 rifles in 260 REM and I only bought those because they were from a limited non-cataloged run of RAR-Ps that only high volume stocking dealers like Whittaker's had access to. Ruger did that for 2 years that I know of, the first year in 25-06 and the second year in 260, and it looked like those rifles would be the start of a trend, but the trend seems to have ended at 2, with the only other non-cataloged chambering that I recall being in 6MM REM.

My current rifle count in 6.5 CM is 17 and in 7mm-08 is 3, so I guess that you'd say that I was leaning toward the Creedmoor.

Also, the 6.5 Creedmoor isn't just an American cartridge. One of my South African friends owns a big sporting goods store in Kimberley, and reported a year or two ago that 80% of the new rifles he was selling were chambered in 6.5 Creedmoor. There's a LOT of commercial culling in RSA (and some other African countries), because like Europe, game is owned by the landowners, and meat can be sold in supermarkets and restaurants. He reported the culler really liked the light recoil, and accuracy even with factory ammo.

While handloading is allowed in RSA, unlike some other African countries, a lot of cullers use factory when they can get it, to save time--which to them is money. In fact my friend uses a .22-250 for a lot of his smaller-animal culling, especially of springbok, and prefers Winchester ammo with 55-grain softpoints--which of course he gets wholesale. (When I hunted with him in 2007, he invited me to use his .22-250 for a day of springbok culling, an old Sako with a long suppressor, at that time on its 4th barrel after killing over 12,000 springbok.) But he reported the 6.5 CM provided more flexibility when culling both smaller and larger animals.

I stalked red deer in Scotland for many years. The gamekeepers’ favorite cartridge for the culling they did was the .243 Winchester.

I don’t own a Creedmoor. I do on a 7mm-08 which has taken buffalo, elk, and truckload of deer.

To me it looks like the Creedmoor is what sportsman have sought for 100 years.
An accurate firearm with well supported cartridge selection. A proper twist, a modern chamber without any prior handicaps like, wildcats or limitations because of old offerings.

A firearm that by consensus shoots very well out of the box with ammunition that is reasonably priced.

Can one duplicate or exceed the accuracy of a Creedmore? Yes. But not out of the box, and not cheaper.

It should be what sportsman want people to use. It should be the standard for any new cartridge. Accurate right out of the box, with all ammo.

Obviously, you've missed my point utterly & completely.

My comment was never about the headstamp whatsoever, only about bullet performance & using whitetails as a medium to just that performance by.

Bullets trump headstamps everyday, all day....................within reason.

Done with this nonsense.

MM

Are they saying you way too big a dude to be shooting a “woman’s” round?

Hmm…

DF

“It’s the boolit, not the head stamp…”

Now where have we heard that?

Good stuff regardless of the source.

DF

Ditto, and I don't even have either....but -

I'm going to have to puzzle this out.

I was looking for a 7-08 barrel for the Rem 725SA and came up with a .260 instead.


Hmmmmm.

No... No... Nooooo.....

As a young child of the 60s, the only rifles I knew anything of were what my Dad and uncles carried. Which, as a matter of record included three 30-06s and one .257 Roberts.
In 1967 my Dad started talking about a mystical, magical cartridge called .243 Winchester. We had recently moved and a new family friend carried a .243 for spot and stalk red fox shooting (which is an addiction), and also used it in Colorado yearly for mule deer and elk.

I can remember the day I first heard the words ".243 Winchester" uttered. We were first timers at the barber shop near our new home, and the sound of the cartridges name drew me. Maybe because it was spoken of with reverence. We made a couple of lifelong friends that day, including the barber, who is (still) one of the biggest names in bird dogs in that area. Also the family friend who introduced us to fox shooting.

In early '69 Dad brought home his model 700 .243. And it was everything it had been described as. In my mind I knew the cartridge was great the first time I heard it's name spoken.
In fact, I wanna postulate that the term "Mic Drop" came about as a result of mention of the .243 Winchester cartridge ending rifle conversations.

I wanna vote that we end all of this "bullets matter more than headstamps" nonsense...

I’ve seen a handful of small, hill country whitetails shot and not recovered after being hit with a 22-250. I’ve never fired a 22-250 personally, but I have two buddies who were smitten with them for a time. My godfather was another, but he only took head and neck shots. The deer I saw get away were shot in the shoulder/ribs.

I routinely shoot deer and pigs with a 223 and a 70 grain Speer with great results, but I’m the shooting/handloding guru in my group. My friends were using factory ammo (neither of them reload) that I’m certain was designed for varmint hunting. Those were obvious cases where just any old bullet wouldn’t do, even on small Texas does that may have weighed 100 pounds on the larger side, probably less.

So in my non-gun writer, Elmer Fudd experience, yes, there are bullets that I would not use for deer. Furthermore, I’d say the 22-250 is a prime example of a cartridge that would best be left to handloaders if deer hunting is the objective. The slow standard twist rate and high velocity lends the cartridge to varmint hunting, a point often overlooked or missed by folks buying whatever 22-250 ammo they happen to find at the local sporting goods store.

The launch and continued push regarding 6.5 CreedMoor was successful to to the following:

1. Great ammo choices for both hunting AND match shooting from major manufacturers @ fairly reasonable prices. Ammo manufacturers have typically left everything except 223 and 308 match ammo to hand-loaders exclusively.

2. Twist rates that corresponded to where current projectile tech was with an eye toward the future and where projectile R&D was headed.

3. Chamber dimensions created with projectiles AND magazine confines taken into account.

4. Ubiquitous LRF's, easy to use ballistic programs, holdover reticles and/or turrets that allow the previously uninitiated to do that which they've never done.

There's nothing "magic" about any particular chambering, but, very few chamberings offer all the options, data. and components OTC (pre-current scarcity) @ one's fingertips.

A much shorter way to say it would be that the 6.5 CreedMoor is the most properly executed and supported launch of a new cartridge to date. It's the 1st "Turnkey" option for hunting and match shooting from a single platform w/factory available options.

Kids whack a fair number of deer every year with the .223.

Grown ups, not so much. Need more gun.

Did someone say something about the boolit???

Hmm…

DF

It’s called a “bullet” by functional adults… but yes, killing things isn’t especially difficult.

I wonder how many deer get away wounded with the 223. I have shot quite a few over the years with .22 caliber rifles. Never lost one in probably 70+ kills. But never had a great confidence in them either.

Shot for shot, I bet not as many as with the 22-250!

Every deer I have killed with my 223 (9) has been a complete pass through and all have had similar looking exit holes that showed good expansion. Even still, the best blood trails of those 9 have been anemic compared to our “standard” deer cartridges.

Good post. Imo

Hmmmmmmmmmm.............................70 for 70 with 22 cal rifles & yet no confidence?

What would it take to make you feel confident?

MM

Succinctlier, society demands instant gratification, and the 6.5 Creedmoor delivers.

Proponents of bigger rounds say things like the 243 or 250 Savage or 6.5 Creedmoor are fine for women, kids and men of small stature. I'm worried they'll quit working for me.

My money would be on whatever cartridge is mostly shot at deer results in the most wounded deer getting away.

And when you’re really in the know, it’s called a “pill”.

Thanks man

You might be on to something there.

Except for the 6.5CM. I’ve heard you can’t miss with a creed.

You can miss with anything, but a Creedmoor is so easy to shoot well that if you miss it's really bad for you.

You saying it's not a good "excuse" or "alibi" round....?

DF

Good question.

100% success rate during 70 opportunities, would make me pretty confident in my ability to hit my point of aim, the rifles' collective accuracy potential, and the bullets' collective expansion and penetration potential.

Interesting, no confidence in 70 positive outcomes?

I have complete confidence in my 22-250 and have never recovered a bullet in three dozen critters. I have caught a bullet every time with my 222. 65gr Sierra's and 55gr GMX so far. 1 turkey, 4 deer and an antelope.

If a new want to be shooter came along and ask which cartridge would you recommend - a 7mm-08 or 6.5 CM, which would you suggest? Personally I think the performance is close enough that it really doesn't matter. What does matter is the availability of ammo and quality rifles to shoot it out of. Currently the 6.5 CM is about a 10:1 favorite on local sporting good shelves and would easily be the cartridge that I recommend.

CRS, although the ,22s have made a number of kills successfully, they don't leave good blood trails. I often don;t see signs of a good hit I have come to expect from bigger calibers. It is just not there and it never will be for me. I am also very careful when I shoot game with .22s. It is mostly in the mornings. when I have time to follow up if something goes wrong. As far as 300 and 400 yard kills, I have made lots on coyotes, but never shot at game that far with .22s. No faith. I guess if it works for you fine. I always have one in the truck and used it when things were correct. I have never had them afield after game without a heavier caliber if things didn;t work perfectly..

For sure 6.5 CM and more so if handloading is not involved. I guess my initial post was geared to the loonies.

IMO there isn't enough difference between the 7-08 and 308. On paper the 7-08 looks a little better, but you're really splitting hairs. With the best loads the way I see it 7-08 beats 308 at 500 yards with about 1" less drop, 35-50 ft lbs more energy and with about 1 ft lb less recoil. When I was deciding between the 2 I didn't handload and the proliferation of 308 ammo and at better prices made 308 a no-brainer for me. Now that I handload the choice would be harder. And at this point in my life I ain't changing, and they are too close to justify both. Probably no reason to own 6.5CM and 7-08 for exactly the same reason. But to me, 223, 6.5CM and 308 make a pretty good trio to own.

The 6.5 CM exactly splits the difference between my 223 and my 308. Recoil is between 243 and 308, but a bit closer to 243. As a hunting cartridge it shoots the same bullet weights as 270 about 200 fps slower at the muzzle, but as range increases the 6.5 is catching up. Somewhere around 300 yards it is a draw. I can't see any animal ever knowing the difference between 6.5CM, 270, 7-08 or 308 for that matter.

I'm not into serious long range target shooting, I but do enjoy some informal plinking at longish ranges. I bought a 6.5 just to try it. So far, I've had a chance to shoot 5-6 of them and every one of them was more accurate than any rifle I've ever shot.

Agree.

A Fire (sage?) once posted that the 7-08 was a .308 with the “suck” squeezed out of it. Frankly, I never thought the .308 “sucked”…

I have both, critters don’t seem to know the difference. Can’t say I find much difference, like them both. To me it boils down to the individual rifle as much as the round.

The Loony thing is to have all of the above in the safe. That way you got it covered.

DF

True enough, how are you going to find out which is better if you don't have both

We've caught a few, 3 I can remember, 55 Corelokts from 22-250. They look like a nickel with a short little stem on one side where the base was.

What I think is odd, is the 6.5x55 has been around for 100 years and the 6.5 Creedmoor just duplicates it. I don't see the "oh wow" attraction. I read people raving about it, but WTF? I'd prefer the 6.5x55 just because it is classic. My younger brother's favorite deer rifle is a 700 Classic in 6.5x55. He also has a 6.5x55 on a '96 action, but it isn't quite as accurate.

As far as the 7mm-08 is concerned - I like mine, but I like my 7x57 more, but only because it is a classic cartridge.

I suppose the trouble with the older cartridges is the rifles that were chambered in them. But some like "new and improved" over classic, I guess.

It's a turn-key solution. Affordable rifles ready to go with the right twist, ammo on the shelf with excellent quality and low prices, low recoil, and Walmart-style availability

It's not about duplicating the ballistics, it's about uniformity and mechanical packaging advantages.

Yep

And marketing. But you gotta deliver for marketing to work.

They did.

DF

Yup. One could look at the 6.5 CM as the 6.5x55 v3.0.

Bugger,

Have explained all this before, but will have another go at it:

Generally older handloaders are the ones voicing your opinion. This is because they apparently can't understand any rifle shooter who doesn't handload, but the vast majority of shooters do not. For them the 6.5x55 cannot duplicate 6.5 Creedmoor "ballistics," because 6.5x55 throats are all over the map, the reason many ammunition companies load it down somewhat, especially in the U.S. Accuracy can also vary considerably, due to the same throating problem, and older 6.5x55 rifles may not be able to safely withstand "modern" pressures.

The 6.5 Creedmoor was indeed designed to approximate the "best" 6.5x55 ballistics, and solve the problem created with the .260 Remington in modern "short" actions when shooters started wanting to use longer, high-BC bullets. This was done by creating a somewhat shorter cartridge than the .260, with a chamber throat specifically designed to work well with higher-BC bullets.

This worked so well that even very "affordable" 6.5 Creedmoor rifles shoot very well with "affordable" factory ammo (or at least the ammo was affordable before the present buying panic"). This is NOT true of the 6.5x55, or even the .260, because few ammo companies ever leaned into loading really accurate ammo for the .260--and when they did it cost more.

I have fooled around with at least eight 6.5 Creedmoors. My first was a walnut-stocked Ruger Hawkeye purchased in 2010, mostly out of curiosity and a potential article or two. I also bought a few boxes of Hornady ammo. The rifle's very first 100-yard group measured around .6 inch, and it shot pretty much like that with ALL the ammo.

Since then I've owned four more 6.5 Creedmoors, mostly because I was curious about whether they would do the same thing. Have also fooled around with a few 6.5 Creedmoors costing 5+ times as much as that Ruger, and some factory rifles costing a lot less. The WORST factory ammo accuracy from any of them--a rifle then retailing for around $200--was three shots in an inch. Most did a lot better, and the expensive rifles didn't do a great deal better than the "affordable" rifles.

In fact I know several handloaders who didn't bother handloading the 6.5 Creedmoor until ammo became hard to find and more expensive. They could buy off-the-shelf loads that shot so well they could spend far more time shooting, rather than handloading--and then sell the fired brass to handloaders.

If the 6.5x55 could do all of that, in very affordable factory rifles with affordable factory ammo, then the 6.5 Creedmoor probably wouldn't exist. But due to its history the 6.5x55 doesn't do that, and never will.

Agreed on this. Uniformity of chamber, throat and magazine specs to facilitate loading of what really is a better bullet.

You can rebarrel/re-throat about any rifle and get optimum specs for any cartridge bullet combo you desire. Magazine issues are another thing. There are rifles out there, and commonly so, that become single shots loaded to their max potential.

Not even in the least. You left out all of his other snide remarks: He's never had one, yet tells us his opinion. JB and mathman hit the nail on the head on this subject matter. You've also had a few and you know there's more to the creedmoor than just obligatory hype and marketing strategy. I don't wear a manbun, but I like the hell out of the 6.5 CM. I have a few and have tested them a bit. I also have a 6.5x55 and also love that cartridge. I think maybe I just got a good rifle? Who knows... As for why the 7mm08 isn't as popular? Guys should read what JB just posted. I feel his pain, he's written on the subject so many times and knows what makes the 6.5CM more "popular". I like both cartridges, load for both, but the edge in accuracy always goes to the CM. Its just designed to be that good...

That may be the best distillation of the advantage that the 6.5 CM holds over the majority of the currently active.short action .257", .264", and .284" bore cartridges that I've seen.

A person who doesn't reload could use the Federal 95 grain V-Max factory load for shooting predators and whatever brand and bullet style/weight moves him/her for shoot medium game, a real dual purpose cartridge for the one rifle hunter.

Or a guy can just use one load, say a 140gr and shoot what ever the hell he desires. Why make chidt complicated?

I basically repeated what JB has said.

THIS IS JB, OUT! *MIC DROP*

Ok the Creedmoor rules for now. What will be the next big thing were multiple posters will be asking....Why does the NBT get more attention than the 6.5 Creedmore. It will happen and then the Creedmore guys who are going over the hill, will be on the defensive and saying, I shot everything from mice to Bull Moose with my Creed. The NBT doesn't interest me.

Interested or not, the ability to recognize objective technical advantages separates the logical from the emotional.

Bingo!

And it's fun to shoot a bunch of rounds per session. Another major attribute.

The name Creedmoor is great for sales and it gives writers something new to write about. 22 Creedmoor, 25 Creedmoor, 6mm Creedmoor, I suppose there’s a 27 and a 28 Creedmoor too.
The 30 Creedmoor came out in about 1920 I believe.
The 6.5 Creedmoor is a well designed cartridge, I’ll give it that.
But as MD and others might expect: I consider factory ammo as a last resort for supplying brass.
I like some new cartridges but I really like the classic cartridges.

While accurate, that has little to do with the question. In that the NBT should have objective technical advantages-as the Creedmore now exhibits-and those who cling to the Creedmore will be unwilling to acknowledge them due to being stuck in the past.

I do find it humorous that the Creedmore threads repeatedly churn out the same info and reasons, often by the same responders..and while accurate it is the rifle question equivalent of Groundhog Day.

No it's not. It's more like deja vu all over again.

[/quote]While accurate, that has little to do with the question. In that the NBT should have objective technical advantages-as the Creedmore now exhibits-and those who cling to the Creedmore will be unwilling to acknowledge them due to being stuck in the past.

I do find it humorous that the Creedmore threads repeatedly churn out the same info and reasons, often by the same responders..and while accurate it is the rifle question equivalent of Groundhog Day. [/quote]

Perhaps--but not any more than anti-Creedmoor posters saying essentially the same thing over and over again: "I don't see the reason for the 6.5 Creedmoor, so don't want one, and don't see why anybody would want one." Which is what gets posted over and over again, often to start a new thread--and what's essentially happened here, once again.

I posted earlier, in another thread, that a lot of Campfire posts simply state a "I don't like it," with no real reason given, whether the subject is the 6.5 Creedmoor, Ballistic Tips, Ruger American Rifles, etc. etc. It's as if a Campfire post is a vote, and if enough members post an "I don't like it," then the 6.5 Creedmoor (or Nosler Ballistic Tips or Ruger American Rifles) will be outlawed, or at the very least banned on the Campfire.

Well..."Scope my Creed...Will be used for mostly Woodland Deer under 100 yards with the occasional power line opportunity out to 400-500"

I don't have one and probably never will. However, the advantages you and others have stated can't be denied. And yes, the deja vu, runs both ways...

Though as I noted, threads are far more often started by a Creedmoor doubter, than a CM fan.

You're definitely not wrong.

I frequently think about the reason many threads are started....And often think learning something is down on the list....

It would probably be tough to make a living as a gun writer if gun nuts weren't such an emotional, sentimental lot that wanted to keep reading about their favorite dusty old cartridges over and over for 100 years.

I'm late to this conversation. I don't and haven't had a 6.5 CM; in the family (meaning I handload for it if I don't own it) we have in the functional range of the 6.5 CM; .243, 6.5 x50, .260, 6.5x55, 6.5 PRC, .270, 7-08, 7x57, .280 AI.

However I most heartily recommend the 6.5 CM to new shooters for all the positive reasons listed above by Brad, Puddle, Mule Deer, Jordan and others. Well thought and designed, firearms and ammunition well executed. To paraphrase my friend Jordan when physics and emotional response get in conflict physics always wins.

Who the fornication cares about marketing, old school vs new school, gayness or other BS. The cartridge works. If it cranks your tractor rock on, if it does not find something that does and rock one.

I spent a couple of hours this PM sorting out 50 rounds of handholds for a son's 6.5x50 Arasaka, with the modified chrysanthimum denoting use in schools as a training rifle and the dust shield in place . Not practical, modern or in my opinion well thought out and executed, but its fun so enjoy and rock on.

For 99.9% of us the gun game is just [bleep] and giggles, lets not get too spun out.

Hope y'all have a good weekend.

That would be your department to know about

Well said, George!

Yep, well said!

I’ve never seriously considered either one. The up side to building new cartridges and rifles is that it keeps the firearms manufacturer(s) in business long enough to build rifles in your favorite chambering. Rock on, indeed.

I don’t hate the cartridge and I think it is a good cartridge for new shooters that don’t reload and are recoil shy.
If I were to get a 6.5 cartridge of any chambering I’d have to add to my collection of bullets. I’d have buy new molds etc. And the cartridge doesn’t fill any void for me.

My only 6.5 was a 264 Win Mag that I got that sometime maybe 55 years ago. The only bullet that I thought was worthy of game animals then was the Nosler bullets that came in the yellow boxes. I ended up using the rifle as a crow and varmint rifle. I thought I already had the best game cartridge - the 30-06. I sold the 264 due to school costs.

I think naming the new cartridges something something Creedmoor is just a sales gimmick that I will stick to.

Saying that I would rather have a 6.5x55 means I hate the 6.5 Creedmoor.

You can love it all you want, it’s ok with me.

But I can have my favorites too.

Bugger,

You just re-confirmed all the points a bunch of the points several of us have made in this thread--and others.

Sorry,
John

The Cred gets more attention simply because it was introduced in the age of the internet,

Those who liked it talked about it,

Those who are stubborn or dislike change or who already had a favorite also kept talking about it,

This thread is proof of that.

I'd rather discuss the rifle itself.

Crazy how something simple as a cartridge can get peoples emotions so worked up. For the most part there’s 100’s, including the 6.5C and 7-08 that will send a similarly performing bullet between 125-165 gr down range between 2650-2850 fps with similar accuracy. Anyone hunting under 450 yds (95% of us) could flip a coin to decide which one and never know the difference.
These days, my biggest concern would be ammo or component availability over on paper performance numbers. Practice is the biggest factor in shooting accurately and you can’t practice without ammo.

And Blackheart has to be the angriest person on the internet.

Nicely said JM

I never contemplated owning anything .264 diameter but plenty others did for their own reasons. I saw an article in my NRA magazine going through the history and purpose of the cartridge. Ballisticians Emary and DeVille made a compelling argument for their new round modifying the 30TC case. It is interesting to note that their conversation on the idea started in 2005 at Camp Perry - but it is called the Creedmoor. Other articles ensued and I eventually bought my first - a Tikka T3 Lite in stainless. The accuracy of handloads and factory ammo was excellent. Since then other Kimber have found their way into the safe. I brought the Tikka to Alaska in 2018 and it was well worn after numerous climbs through willows, Devils Club, rocks and back pack wear. The caribou was tagged at 375 yards with a 147gr. ELD-X. Subsequently a cow elk came next later that year and this year a 5x5 bull elk dropped at the shot from a cup and core Norma 140 gr. bullet. I am not a bear hunter, so for me, within reasonable ranges, the CM can do it all. At my advanced age the recoil is negligible which makes for great accuracy too. Good luck to you!

I may be typical of one segment of the CM market.

I started my 6.5 journey with a CZ Swede. Handloaded from day 1 for it using the 140 gr. Partition. Kept the freezer full for many years with that combination.

Then gave the rifle setup to my nephew for completing putting himself through college. That along with 200 rounds of handloads. There have been times in that last 2 years I wished I had some of those bullets...

A few years later I got the itch for another 6.5. I went online, looked around, and counted the number of factory ammo offerings for the CM. Well over 100. What's up with that???

So, I bought one. I knew I'd eventually get around to handloading for it, but the first 5 boxes of factory ammo from 5 different manufactures were simply amazing. Getting at least 1 inch groups from factory ammo? Unreal.

So for the first 2 years I simply hunted and shot using factory ammo. Then got around to handloading for it. But I never needed to.

I'm spoiled. Today, if a box of CM factory ammo doesn't give me at least 4, 1" groups off the bench then I never look at the offering again.

Except that those who haven't actually owned/used one shouldn't even have a comment or be taken seriously on the subject. Leave that to those who have.

Black heart is the perfect name for guys like him.

One thing I have learned is this. If you are prejudice against folks who wear flat brimmed hats, have man buns and maybe even beards of a certain length AND they shoot Creeds, you will dislike Creeds too! LOL.

Puddles' experience regarding the 6.5 Creedmoor is similar to mine. About 3 years ago I had gone through a downsizing of my hunting rifle assortment. I had a 280AI , a 7 Mag and a 35 Whelen remaining and wanted something a bit smaller than the the 280AI and it could not be a 243. Had lots of those. The 270 is too close to the 280AI so that left the 25's and 6.5's. I had seen the Creedmoor online and thought I would check one out so I picked up a new 700 SPS. Stuck a Timney trigger in it that I had in the cabinet and put it in a B&C stock I had. Mounted up a Leupy 4.5-14 from the pile and proceeded to put the first 2 rounds of Federal 120 gr Trophy Tips touching at 100M. I thought it was a fluke until the 3rd round opened the group to .520". These were the first 3 rounds through the barrel post factory. Let it cool and shot 3 or 4 more groups of about 3/4" with this ammo. Every Creedmoor I've had has been very accurate. A Sako A7 Roughtech Long Range fired 4 consecutive 3 shot groups of a 139 Scenar and Rel 17, the largest of the 4 groups being exactly .50". No "tuning", first load tried. Currently have a Christensen Mesa I've shot only twice and it's averaging under 3/4" with a couple loads with the 127 LRX. It just works.

There are more than a few here who have shot enough different calibers more than a little....who wouldn't have had to own or use a variety of calibers to have a valid opinion.
Like saying a shooter that has extensive experience with a .30-06 wouldn't have a clue about what a .308 can do.

On Wed. of this week, right at dark, in Texas, a large ( black as a crow ) sow and 2 small shoats were just in the edge of a small opening. The ranch hand looked at me and said, " that's a baby factory. Please shoot her ". Got the range at 169 yds and the Tikka T3X spoke. A Hornady 143 gr ELDX with 40.5 grains of H4350 went in on a hard quartering away shot. The sow jumped and went about 7' in pure Texas heck. Cactus and thorns solid. Made a small entrance hole following blood into the thicket, saw a black object, put a rope on a back foot and drug her out. Left some blood of my own in there and I'm still picking out cactus spines. Guessed her weight at 190ish and I've killed and weighed lots of swine. I know I didn't shoot through the shield of a big boar but the ELDX lived up to it's reputation penetrating deeply on a large hog. I'm sold on a factory Tikka, shooting a real good round that shoots outstanding in handloads or any factory rounds that I've tried.

There is what seems to be the accepted reason...shoots well, in a factory rifle with either handloads or factory...

However, none of that has to do with hitting a game animal using x powder, xy bullet or how far it went. Thus someone who can do the same with another 6.5 offering has a valid opinion of the others capabilities.

I musta really hurt your little feelers at some point for you to follow me around sniping like you do. Rent free in your head. LMAO


PS

You and Rost 495 would make a good couple. You should hook up and help each other fill out a hurt feelers report. LOL

I got into the 6.5 CM game because shortactionsmoker, the member here who runs Whittakers, posted that they were closing out some Howa Lightning rifles. I drove the hour and a few minutes north the next morning and picked one up for around $300. Drove 30 minutes south the next day to Midsouth, picked up a set of dies, some brass, a pound of H4350, and a couple of boxes of bullets, some 120 Sierra MK's, and some 140 Nosler BT's. Loaded up a few rounds of each, put a scope on the rifle, went out and shot some of the smallest groups I've ever fired on a rifle right out of the box. Took it deer hunting and killed a nice buck, with the Nosler doing it's job just as it was supposed to.

I buy, sell, and trade a lot, and am now on my fourth and fifth rifles chambered for the 6.5 CM. I do not shoot factory ammo in my rifles, everything I shoot are my reloads. With other cartridges and rifles, it is usually an experimentation in different powders, primers, bullets, and other things, in order to come up with a load that I like. I have found with the 6.5 CM it is a very simple process to come up with an accurate load. That's what I like about it the most, and it's pretty much what it was designed for. It's almost boring sometimes, because it's ridiculously easy when it comes to coming up with accurate loads that my rifles like.

I’m a Creedmoor owner - got one in Bergara chassis with a Zeiss V4 6-24x50 to fool around and see if I want to shoot PRS. We have access to a long range and with cheap factory ammo Sig 127 grain & Zeiss phone app I’m hitting targets at 1100 yards. Like many on here I think I’m Gods gift to marksmanship but that is still impressive for an under $2,000 rifle & scope combo & the cheapest ammo in the store.

Just got a New Years Eve granddaughter, the first for our youngest like every gun nut grandfather I’m planning 22, shotgun, deer rifle for a young woman & it’s between 7-08 & 6.5 CM. Her mother has a 243 her father 300 Weatherby. So I have dies for 6.5 & 243 but this one might hunt elk so I’m leaning 7-08. I think of the Creedmoor as a target round still. I think big game rifles start at 30-06 & who knows she might want a 300 Bee as an adult but at 12 years 7-08 down loaded for practice seems about right.

Funny that yours are easy to reload for because that is my biggest problem. Everything shoots about an inch group but I haven’t found anything really accurate. My 7mm RM shoots under. Dime sized groups every year, the 300 Weatherby about 3/4” but the 6.5 is just under an inch with 7 or 8 combinations so far. Factory loads the same 7 out of 10 1” groups & the other 3 bigger.

Well since you like the 6.5 Creedmoor more than the 6.5x55, by your own logic you are a 6.5x55 hater.

That isn't it. I don't believe anybody said your liking of the 6.5x55, in and of itself, makes you a 6.5 Creedmoor hater.

Well…

Horseschitttt. Like asking a cheerleader who's seen 500 football games what it's like to actually compete on the field.

Three rounds of Factory 140 A-Max ammo.

Good grief...

Damn! That's gotta make ya wish that happened in a sanctioned event with witnesses!

Right?

My 11 year old nephew killed 2 deer, a handful of beaver and 1 coyote this past year with his 6.5 Creedmoor. He's not on the internet, he likes girls, can drive and loves Wild Turkey Honey.

He doesn't know it's gay or that it causes problems with old men, he's just living the dream.

If you say so,but I survived the 70's and early 80's by the grit of my teeth from the 7mm Remington magnum fans. There was no internet then and apparently no gravity either.

That part is counter to your point.

Fair enough, but he is 11.

Bugger,

Here's the 6.5x55 I've had for around 20 years. It's an FN Mauser action with a Dave Gentry 3-position safety, and a Lilja 1-8 twist barrel installed by Charlie Sisk. I did the stock myself, from a piece of "California English" walnut. Got the action from my late father-in-law, and it's one of the last rifles I'd ever sell. It shoots very accurately--about as accurately, in fact, as the average $500 6.5 Creedmoor, though I haven't found a factory load that shoots as well as my handloads.

In the meantime have owned and sold five 6.5 Creedmoors, and right now don't have one, though may change that soon.

That gun is a classic looking hunting rifle. The gun has clean lines and the scope looks like the perfect proportion for the gun.

But it seems that you say that you like the 6.5 Swede less than the 6.5 Creedmoor - therefore you hate the Swede. That is if the converse is true, that if I say, “I like the Swede more than the Creeedmoor I’m one of the Creedmoor haters.”
I don’t believe I said I hated the Creedmoor.

In my opinion: The Remington action is a bit short for 57 millimeter length cartridges and I think it’s marginal for the cartridges that are 51 millimeters. The Creedmoor has optimized the length of the cartridge with the 700 short action as well as many other short actions. Despite that, I like the Swede more and I don’t hate the Creedmoor.
Now please don’t say I hate the 308 in a short action, but I would like the action at least 5 millimeters longer, longer yet for the 6mm, 257, 350 RM etc.
The 350 RM is a favorite cartridge and it is about 55 milli-meters in length - it was designed to fit in the short 600 action - I believe they were designed for each other. But I’d like the action to be longer and I have 350’s in both a 700 and a 600.
Further I’d like to seat some bullets further out in the 308 class of cartridges, especially in: the 7-08, the 308, the 260, and the 358.
I think the short action is marginal for these cartridges.
If the short actions were longer, the Creedmoor may likely have been based on the 308 length cartridges perhaps a 260 AI.

By the way: I never believed you hate the Swede.

If a frog had wings it wouldn't bump it's ass when it hops

I was in sales in the 80's ... all my sales training revolved around the fact that people buy (or don't buy) based on emotion and not fact. People gonna buy for lots of reasons .... this thread is like the Ford vs Chevy vs Dodge argument that has been going on for decades. Buy what tickles your fancy.

That right there was some funny chit ..... I don't care who you are. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RFlCD5CYAcU

That right there was funny ..... I don't care who you are. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RFlCD5CYAcU

Maybe. But I wasn't kidding. I have shot a couple that I wished got measured on the record lol

Bugger,

Fair enough--but I still wish I had $5 bill for every time somebody of our generation has told me (or posted somewhere on the Internet) that there's no reason for the 6.5 Creedmoor, because the 6.5x55 has been doing the "same things" for well over a century.

By the way, I would also often like a little more magazine length for "short actions." This is partly because so many newer bullets have longer sleeker front ends, especially plastic-tips. But some short-action rifles are now coming with slightly longer magazines. Melvin Forbes put 3-inch magazines in his Model 20 Ultra Light Arms rifles when he introduced them in 1985, and the magazine on Eileen's M20 .257 Roberts allows me to seat 100-grain Barnes TTSXs "correctly," meaning where they're most accurate. Despite the tendency of TTSX's to shoot better when seated somewhat deeper, the cartridge OAL is too long for the average 2.85 inch short-action magazine.

Lol!

It was my ammo out of a friend’s rifle. He thought his barrel was bad.

He witnessed the freak group

People have gone against mainstream since there's been a mainstream. I get the notion they think being different makes them special. In many instances, I believe it most certainly does...

In my AOR we call them liberals.

Doesn't the Fieldcraft have a 3" magazine? It seems like that should be the next best thing; "ordinary" factory rifles with magazines > SAAMI specs. Bullets are getting longer, not shorter.

The media hype, the 6.5 long bullet craze and the fact that it’s new. Both are good, but I prefer the 7-08.

A fun read!

This isn't aimed at anyone in particular.

There ain't no country music for old men
All of the good ones have died, or just packed it in
Now there's posers and losers
And would-be outlaws
Who only know how to pretend
But there ain't no country music for old men

I have used a 7x57 since 1981 so have no interest in the CM. Because I loaded for and used and saw used several 6.5x55's in the 80's and 90's, I definitely would take a serious look at the CM if I lost everything in a fire and had to rebuild. The 6.5mm is a very old and well proven caliber regardless of the casing. The CM case is the more practical today and the rifles are built around the potential of the cartridge as a whole in today's market, so it really wouldn't be very bright to slander a 6.5 Creedmoor considering most people hunt animals way under 1000 pounds.

[/quote] Doesn't the Fieldcraft have a 3" magazine? It seems like that should be the next best thing; "ordinary" factory rifles with magazines > SAAMI specs. Bullets are getting longer, not shorter. [/quote]

Yes, the short-action Fieldcraft HAD a 3" magazine. I emphasize HAD because the FC isn't made anymore.

I had one for a while, a .243 Winchester with a 1-7 rifling twist, and the magazine length definitely helped when handloading the longer, high-BC bullets weighing well over 100 grains.

You should’ve zoomed out. You can’t see the other two shots in that frame!

LOL. That's funny Sir.

Jim

I’m gonna need some addresses so the shanking party can commence.

I love the concept of the 6.5 Creedmoor. But I'm still busy acquiring the rifles I lusted after in the 1970s. Second (or third) childhood sort of thing.

I've had every practical use for a rifle covered since the early 1980s at least. But I'm aware that the CM cartridge is a better idea, and likely the best avenue to an all purpose rifle out there.
If whim and opportunity coincide...

Yes, the short-action Fieldcraft HAD a 3" magazine. I emphasize HAD because the FC isn't made anymore.

I had one for a while, a .243 Winchester with a 1-7 rifling twist, and the magazine length definitely helped when handloading the longer, high-BC bullets weighing well over 100 grains.
[/quote]

I have that 243 now. Hadn’t even shot it. Probably get it rolling this spring.

I traded a guy a 6.5 Creedmoor for the 243….

Yes, the short-action Fieldcraft HAD a 3" magazine. I emphasize HAD because the FC isn't made anymore.

I had one for a while, a .243 Winchester with a 1-7 rifling twist, and the magazine length definitely helped when handloading the longer, high-BC bullets weighing well over 100 grains.
[/quote]

I have that 243 now. Hadn’t even shot it. Probably get it rolling this spring.

I traded a guy a 6.5 Creedmoor for the 243….
[/quote]

Hey there, gun seller feller!!!

I remember when the .223AI, the Leupold 6x42 and many were trying McMillan stocks in most every conceivable color combination were all the rage on the fire...Now not so much.

I totally hear you & was doing that till I realized I was missing some cool stuff. I was one of the resistance but then I screwed up. I fired just 3 shots from a friends Tikka 6.5 into 3/4” off of a backpack while joking around. I had my first 6.5 Creedmoor two weeks later & just picked up a second. It’s just that well designed. It’s what we old dudes always wanted but didn’t show up till later in our ‘careers’. Can’t blame us for being pissed - we we’re sold sectional density not BC and sweet new copper bullets that change the science.

Party on

Yep....

And BC Syndrome sealed the deal

+1

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

Hate to bring it up, but since probably 95% of big game are taken at distances less than 300 yards, a guy should just pick the one he likes, with the right bullets, and get on with it. It takes most all of the discussions about wind drift, BC's, etc out of the equation.

Don’t you start making sense now uncle Johnny!! 😂😂

Agree with that too! Have owned one 7-08 and should have kept it. It would shoot the 162gr Hornady into 5/8" for three at 100, at nearly 2800 fps.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Yes, but lots of rifles see double use as paper killers and critter getters. This is especially true over the last 5 - 10 years.

Chambering, scopes and stocks can pull double duty easily. Why not have the best of both worlds?

Wow that’s fast!

Long barrel? What load?

For sure that…

This is the Fire don’t ya know.

DF

That sounds too fast for a 7-08 with 160's................but he did qualify it by saying NEARLY 2800, whatever that means.

2800 & a little change, is all I get from my 280's with 160's, just sayin'.

MM

That sounds too fast for a 7-08 with 160's................but he did qualify it by saying NEARLY 2800, whatever that means.

2800 & a little change, is all I get from my 280's with 160's, just sayin'.

MM

Blowing smoke up someone's azz...

Wow, 16 pages.

Is this a Creed loving, Creed bashing thread record?

DF

Of which you're an expert.

Hodgdon data shows 2825 fps with a max load of Staball6.5 with 160-162 gr bullets.

I have a couple bottles of StaBALL, a 7-08 and a Creed. I'll admit I've not yet tried it in either round, already have good loads that work.

I've read that Hodgdon's data is pretty "ambitious" regarding their new "roll out" wonder powder.. So, I wouldn't take it to the bank until I tried it, clocked it myself.

They selling powder, for sure. Ya reckon maybe some hype, too....?

It may or may not be the best thing since sliced bread....

Hmm.....

I'll hold my opinion until I see reports from actual users. Time will tell.

DF

So far their loads for the 30-06 and 6mm CM have been real good DF, right at book speeds without standing on my head or anything crazy.

The 6.5 Manbun, much like its blue-collar cousin (the .308Win) and its college-educated brother (the 7mm-08Rem), will still get it done just fine with plain old Walmart-ish ammo. That's a nice benefit to a chambering that has a lot of other factors going for it.

Plunked another boar this weekend with the 6.5 Sig Cross, shooting the 129gr Interlock American Whitetail loads. He was bumping 200lbs and ran about 50yds with a lung shot. That's about what I'd expect with nearly any bullet in that location.

Thanks,

When it warms up some, may try it.

DF

I've been playing with StaBall a little in a Tikka 6.5 CM with 22.4" barrel. Velocities and powder charges are consistent with Hodgdon's online data, when corrected for barrel length.

That's what I've been finding as well, in more than one cartridge.

Good to know, John. Thanks. I've seen the same in 6 CM with 115 DTACs, as well.

Thanks, guys.

May need to give it a whirl.

DF

Might also comment on this thread's title:
"So JB, why does the 6.5 CM get more attention than the 7mm-08?"--

Did the thread answer the question?

Or should it continue onward into cyberspace infinity--which just might do more to promote the 6.5 CM aka MB?

so many different experiences and so many different perspectives leads to so many different answers.

I shanked a guy today, forget his screen name, but like Pauli you won’t be hearing from him no more.



P

Mule Deer and Jordan (and anyone else using StaBall),

What primers are you using, large rifle or magnums?

I’ve just been using standard LR primers.

I've used standard LR primers as well, with good results. But if a load didn't shoot as well as hoped, wouldn't hesitate to try magnum primers.

Really? Do they test that stuff or something?

Mule Deer and Jordan,

Thank you for your responses. I've been wanting to try some StaBall in my .270 with some 95 gr. TTSXs. If I can ever find it again.

Marketing

Yep, it works.

17 pages so far. Simple question by OP.

Go figure.

DF

Brings 'em out of the woodwork, huh DF? Topics on the 6.5CM and Leupold always include in depth analogies from people who've never owned or used them. I wish I had that talent.

I have mentioned in earlier posts that marketing actually had relatively little to do with the 6.5 Creedmoor's success.

Initially Hornady designed it as a target round, and since that market isn't huge they didn't do much promoting/marketing.
But after a few years enough hunters had tried it,and found it worked very well, for the word to start getting around.

This was several years after the 6.5 CM was introduced in 2007. Yes, it's been around 15 years now, but a lot of folks somehow think it appeared in the last few years, because that's when considerable "marketing" started appearing in various magazines and on the Internet. But that was in response to the growing interest in the round, not the major cause of its popularity.

Another point is that for "marketing" to work, the product has to live up to its claims--and the 6.5 Creedmoor did, providing a consistently accurate, affordable and relatively low-recoil round suitable for a wide range of uses. The history of American marketing is full of failures that didn't live up to their marketing hype. Probably the Ford Edsel is the classic example, but probably relatively few Campfire members can recall much about it. New Coke was a more recent example.

Fourteen+ years now.

According to a European study, 7mm bullets have been linked to heart disease and cancer. These conditions aren't a problem in Scandinavian countries, or with 6.5mm bullets. The US is slowly being integrated into the European collective. Resistance is futile.

Hornady has been secretly funded by several European governments to develop ammunition that is,

1. Euro friendly;
2. Very accurate (to lure Americans away from the various 30 cal cartridges);
3. Less fattening;
4. Cheaper; and
5. Designed to convert the US to metric.

This last thing is troubling. According to the National Reloading Foundation, metric measurements will change the reloading landscape in the US within a few years. Grains will become grams. Meters will replace feet. 1000 yd ranges will become 914 meters, etc.

It has been happening in the US for several years now. Plummeting 30-06 and 308 Winchester sales. The constant, in your face comparisons of the 6.5CM to the Swede. Canada (a metric country) produces much of the powder for the US market. The same goes for Australia. Lapua bullets are more widely available. Coincidence? No.

Sweden is quietly going about their metric, 6.5mm business. They want the 6.5x55mm restored to its former glory, and are using the 6.5CM as their way in. Keep your eyes on Lindström, Minnesota. The US centre of operations.

Expect warning labels on store bought 7mm and 30 cal ammunition. Swedish will be taught in more US high schools. Vihtavuori powder will arrive in the US in much larger quantities than before, displacing the old standbys. American children will be taught that herring and Köttbullar (Swedish meatballs) are healthy foods.

For many people, it's too late.

https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/medical-assistance-dying.html

[/quote] Fourteen+ years now.[/quote]

Fifteen. It was introduced at SHOT in 2007.

Same study that linked Redgwell to perpetual dumbasssery.

What's wrong? Didn't they bring you your Jell-O?

Plus SAAMI specced 8 twist factory barrels and throats that promote great accuracy from factory loads.

Hold on one second…aren’t those Red Herring? 😜

I think you're right!

😂

John,

Not exactly. The 8-twist barrels and SAAMI throats helped, but the big "marketing" push didn't occur until several years after the 6.5 CM appeared, as I noted in a previous post--and was primarily due to hunters finding out how well it worked, not Hornady's limited early promotion as a target round.

A good example of this is one of my magazine editors, who maybe 4-5 years ago told all the staff writers that he didn't want any more articles involving the 6.5 Creedmoor. Then a year or two later he changed his mind, because so many READERS were demanding more info in the magazine....

JB,

Simply saying that marketing won't turn a sow ear into a silk purse and there is a big list of cartidges that were marketed heavily but failed due to poor design.

I think we are pretty much on the same page.

Fun fact but Wayne V killed the first elk with the 6.5 CM and I set the rifle up and was the spotter.

Wayne won't admit it was at 600yds.

I think it’s recorded in a video though isn’t it John? I remember watching him and man, everyone looked a little surprised when that bull took a nose dive.

Whatcha doing with that bowl of bait?

Yup.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOo6gprtKeA&t=3s

That’s the one. Great stuff.

John,

Yeah, I know Wayne pretty well, and have hunted with him a few times. Would kinda understand why he wouldn't acknowledge that....

"Simply saying that marketing won't turn a sow ear into a silk purse and there is a big list of cartridges that were marketed heavily but failed due to poor design" is basically what I said in another post--though also referring to the Ford Edsel and New Coke!

Good hunting,
John

I'd like to convince more people to incorporate 6.5mms into their outdoor activities. We have to remember that the 6.5mm market is too crowded, so the 6.5CM, 6.5-284 and the 26 Nosler will fail. There are others that are doomed to fail as well, like the 6.5 PRC.

This is a golden opportunity to pick up a 6.5x55mm, 6.5x54, 6.5 Carcano, 6.5 Grendel or some other rifles at bargain basement prices. I am presently in negotiations with Honda. I would like them to include a 6.5 Arisaka with every new or Honda certified used vehicle. I figure I will try Fiat, Lamborghini and a few others as well.

We shouldn't forget the 6.5mm Portuguese Mausers, the 6.5 Gibbs or the 6.5 Epps. I've got Steve Hornady interested in the 6.5 Vostok, but he is a bit worried because of its Russian origins. Still, it is a biathlon cartridge after all.


6.5 Vostok (6.5x54r)

You'd be cranky too if you born with ears like Dumbo.

I've kind of like dumbo ears.....

so Steve once again an anti gun, pro China, pro black face Trudeau covtard Canadian like you should stick to double masking and multi vaxxing, 8 boosters and shutting down all businesses to save the world from the deadly Covid

no response for that, beautiful

and the well seasoned rifle guy chimes in

Missed your meds again, ribbie?

Why the 6.5 CM? Well because it performs. It “punches above its weight class”. Which is how Taylor described the 375 H&H.
That is why.

And I always thought that this was the one forum at the fire free of children.

So did I,

I like big ears, too....

DF

That well may well be the "bottom line", for sure not the last word...

DF

I told you if you posted that pic again you were in for a shanking.

Watch your 6.

Along with being a cartridge recommended for light recoil, and having high bc bullets for long range, that used to be how the 7mm-08 was described.

7-08 could still be described as such.

DF