....... Which is the superior rifle -- the Pre-64 or the contemporary Model 70? Setting aside resale value, which would you declare to be superior, and why?
In general I'll take the pre 64.I have owned and shot a great many of all of them.IME the accuracy is on average far better than an out of box Classic. The pre 64 will work,rifle to rifle,better than the Classics across the board.The old trigger in either model is "plus".
I have no idea how many Classics I have owned, shot, and hunted with. I used to nickname them the "Projects in a Box" rifles.Sloppy safeties, barrels screwed on crooked, safeties that fell out,chambering problems,MIM extractors that dropped rounds, barrel swith sections of rifling missing,floorplates that would not close or needed screw drivers to pry open,mediocre accuracy,mushy triggers,sloppy bedding,indifferent accuracy,2 piece bolt handles(here and there known to come detached).....overall widely variable QC.I could go on....they never, to me, felt like,sounded like, norfunctioned and shot like, a pre 64 across the board.It could be argued that if it wasn't a pre 64, it wasn't a Winchester...
Custom shop rifles during the Classic era? i would never pay the price forthem, but to me a custom rifle was something people like Dale Goens put together...I had one Custom Shop 270 FW Classic,and compared to what I was used to it was a POS.
OTOH, the Classic has the design to be a great rifle,and after coddling and improvement by a good smith they are a fabulous hunting rifle....after you spend money on them to make them "right".How many have I used to come to this conclusion? I dunno, maybe 40-50 of them as well....
I have never, out of maybe 40-50 pre 64's(the number could be far higher)experienced ANY of the same problems cited above.Out of all the rifles I have shot and hunted with, they are the only ones' that I would pick up, blind,never having used and shot it,that I would completely trust to do two things.....function flawlessly and hit where I aimed them, every single time with no exceptions. This is no small trick and their record in my own hands is unmatched in this regard by anything else, made by any manufacturer.
The reason? Even though they were not made on CNC machinery,maybe do not have the tolernces in the manufacture of individual parts, they were hand coddled by skilled workers,guys who walked them back and forth to the range,and through QC to be certain they shot and functioned properly before they left the factory.They were assembled in such a manner that minor issues were overcome in the entire package,so that they "worked".They were not slapped together by union workers, and flung out the door.
On a pre 64 the parts are all machined steel, no castings anywhere;even the small trigger and other springs were made/tested in house. Feed rails are machined to the receiver,contoured along with mag follower,and dimensions to the individual cartridges,one of the little secrets as to how/why they function properly.Unlike the Classic with no feed rails and feeding controlled by lips in a stamped out generic mag box,sometimes ill fitted to the cartridges.
This is what many do not "get"...the difference between good rifles and great rifles is skilled hands,not CNC machinery...
I hear idiots moan about finish to the receivers and smooth machining....this is cosmetic fluff for armchair hunters incapable or inexperienced in good workmanship and great function...the pre 64 was not designed and manufactured to satisfy aesthetic taste;they were made to hunt with...but if you think a pre 64 is not well finished, pick up a pre war, or hold the barrel of any of them to the light....no ripples on the blue job, straight lines,deep,lustrous, muted blueing,,unlike the shiny attention grabbing but highly impractical dip blueing common on later rifles.
Pre 64 stocks?Some great and some not so good....I have had a few I did not want to change but not many.That said,they feel "gunny", point well,etc,and certainly function.
Got a friend, one of those old codgers that Cumminscowboy likes to make fun of,a hunter and match shooter(even in his mid 70's would likely shoot Cummins under the table)who has a pair of Palma match rifles made on pre 64 actions.He has competed nationwide and in Canada.I forget for certain but the last time I asked Bernie,one rifle had fired over 100,000 rounds, the other"newer" rifle had only 40,000 to 50,000 rounds through it.Triggers are factory,tuned by him;the only parts he has replaced is the firing pin spring,which he swaps out every 10-20,000 rounds to ensure proper ignition.
He is concerned with function because it sucks to drop shots due to malfunction on the line...this does not happen.
He is a mechanical engineer,a forensic expert in firearms and qualifies as an expert witness in court...in short he "knows rifles",unlike some on here who think they do....I doubt that aguy with his credentials,shooting the volumes of rounds he does, would use a pre 64 action if he felt there was any danger from gas handling, mostly a trumped up charge.
Like Battue has stated....all those with personal experience regarding pre 64 gas handling, raise your hands!Likely far fewer than those having real issue and accidental discharges with Reminton triggers and safeties,' I'll bet...
I challeneged many here to demonstrate how a Kimber action was superior in gas handling to a pre 64 M70 a few weeks back....I got no real answers, and few "takers".......
The SC rifles? Far better overall in assembly, fit, bedding, function and general accuracy IME than the Classics;better attention to detail in the final assembly and it shows at the range.I have now shot 6;all have stayed MOA or better with almost no fiddling at all.The trigger "feels" swell out of the box,and IMO requires no tuning,unless you are the hyper sensitive type who can't shoot with anything over 2 pounds.....that said I like the old trigger better than any enclosed trigger made by anyone. I wish they had kept it on the new rifles.So I won't be spending any real money building any rifles on the new actions for that reason.
I tell friends, you want something in a reasonable caliber that will shoot sub MOA, work every time, on about anything,anywhere,and not want to spend a fortune? Go buy a pre 64 M70 FW in 270 or 30/06 and put it in a Brown Precision,Bansner, or McMillan stock.You will not kill it, it will not, ever let you down,and it will shoot tiny groups with a reasonable array of loads,and people will try to buy it from you no matter where you go. Ignore the infidels and naysayers....you can pay a lot more for a hunting rifle.You will not get anything better.....
In the end, to me,the Classic and the SC rifles are what they are as stated above....good rifles....but to me, they haven't really made M70's....since 1964.JMHO and YMMV.
