Noah’s Ark has always fascinated me. I’ve read conflicting stories on the subject. Would like to hear folks opinions and support that comes from the Bible . Let’s discuss this while being respectful to one another please!

Fiction is my call.

Isn’t on mountain side in Turkey?

No rain before the flood.

A morality tale. Never happened.

part os the scam

Yes.

Seems completely reasonable.

My opinion is that whoever you are, you deserve no respect.

Seems happy camperish.

Yes I do. Jesus referred to the "days of Noah".

Most definitely believe

Yes I believe the biblical account of it. There are aquatic fossils found in the desert and at high elevations. I always have thought those came about from the flood at Noah's time.

Yes I do.

Fairy tale.

One simple hand clap could have ended mosquitos forever !

Logistically not probable.

I think there has been "ages" of human kind going back 2-300,000yrs or more. The Ark may or may not have been a DNA storage facility to preserve our genes and guarantee our survival as a species.

In short, yes.
Jim1611- there is a recent documentary I just watched explaining a theory that relates to what you say. Researchers explore the notion that what was thought to have taken hundreds of centuries to form makes more sense when viewed as sudden massive earth upheaval event. The deposition of fossils being one of them. They show what they claim as similar evidence around the globe. I enjoyed it and it certainly seemed worth thinking about while they discussed it. Others of course are likely quick to debunk it.

One thing experience, if not recent events, has taught me is that settled science, isn't.

I do believe in the Ark. I’m also fascinated and befuddled when I pickup crystalized quartz seashells inside a piece of flint rock and three feet away is a limestone shell fossil.

The world is a wondrous place that human arrogance always thinks they have an answer for.

Even have one flint rock with a quartz crystal human hand inside but have never shown it because I don’t want “them” digging my place up.

Yes

Yes. It happened.

The Grimm brothers also wrote a big book of morality tales. But they didn't give god a byline.

It's true. Firstly because the word of God says so, and secondly because evidence of it abounds.

Count me among the believers.

Both the Med and the Black Sea show signs that they were dry at one point. The Med dried out into a salt basin. The Black Sea became a fertile plain. When the breach at Gibraltar finally came, it filled the Med basin in a couple of months. When the breach happened at the Bosphorus, it was considerably gentler, and the inhabitants could have outpaced the rising water by walking.

Both events were well back in time, certainly before recorded history. However, these tales could have survived through oral tradition.

The American Indians also have similar tales, and there are records of some catastrophic floods in America. Most important was the one that washed down through the Mississippi basin and created The Badlands.

Did Noah's Ark happen just the way it is told in the Bible? I'd invite y'all to go visit Ark Encounter just over a couple ridges from me. They've built an ark and will show you just how it was done.

https://arkencounter.com/about/

I believe the Bible to be accurate truth.
The absolute Word Of God.
My existence depends on it! 😀
Reon

Believer here and to others that are like minded this replica in Kentucky is well worth the visit. Three levels and outfitted like it would have been.

I sure some farmer (name of Noah) did, once upon a time, build a big boat and put all of his animals on it during a flood. He may have later exaggerated the experience. They probably just floated around the pasture for a bit. This is just good storytelling; practiced by presidential candidates all the time. GD

First, others aren't "quick" to debunk it, the fossil record has been documented over centuries.

Second, those weren't "researchers." They were men who started out with a preconceived notion and set out to find "evidence" to prove it, ignoring all the evidence that disproves it.


Believe Noah's Ark, or don't believe it but don't try to use junk science to "prove" it. It doesn't work.

In my mind, it doesn't seem plausible, but neither does a lot of things in the Bible. I do believe it happened, although I don't have the brain horsepower to explain it.

I surely wish he'd forgotten the yellow jackets.

I believe that it was written about thousands of years ago in the Bible. Since then, there has been unbelievers that started writing to try to disprove it but haven't had much success.

Still a tough pill to swallow that Emus were gathered from Australia, Polar bears from the arctic, Jaguars from South America, Hyenas from Africa, elephants from India etc. All brought back alive to one boat in the Middle East, provisioned for the long boat ride and then released back into the wild and repopulated the earth from the most constricted genetic bottleneck possible.

Ever heard of tectonic plates and continental drift?. Surely you don't believe the ocean was 8000 feet or more higher than it is now. Think about what an average annual 1/4 inch rise in elevation could do in 1 million years.

No.

I believe

Those animals could have possibly existed elsewhere 'pre-flood'?

If one believes in the miracle of Easter wouldn't that make what God & Noah accomplished also be feasible?

Just food for thought.

Yes, I believe. I also believe that there are many things, in the Bible as well as things in general, that are beyond our level of understanding. We are at once too quick to dismiss some things out of hand and too quick to accept "scientific" explanations for others.

As to the Ark, I grow very frustrated with those who endlessly repeat the "TWO of each species" when the Bible clearly states otherwise.

Believe it existed, bet there were other arks flooding the flood waters at that time also, probably fleets of arks. Don't buy into a theory that Noah,his family and the animals he had along were the sole survivors. The Bible is a very condensed version about the story of humanity. Simple logic.

Check out the Lake Missoula flood when a 3000 square mile lake broke loose from its ice dam and came roaring across Idaho and what is now the Scab Lands In Washington state. I bet those survivors had a worldwide flood story.

Good point Hastings! I never thought of that. The earth could have been a flatter place way back. In my youth I lived in a small town named Ione. Driving down highway 88 , on both sides of the road were small hills. There was a line so to speak about 25 feet above the highway in the hills with lava rock exposed. It’s like a high water mark. Whenever I drive through the area, those thoughts go through my head on a theory that it’s a high water marking. The area I’m trying to recall is about 200 feet above sea level. While I do believe in science, we still have a lot to learn.

Where did the water go, the polar ice caps.

Thanks for mentioning the documentary. I've watched receding flood waters and how they change things in a matter of days and see the power at work. There is a museum in Kansas City, Mo. that deals with a recovered paddle boat than sank in the Missouri river close to that city years back. It was found under about 20 feet of sand and at least 1/2 mile from the current channel. The river changed course on it's own in under 100 years. It doesn't take thousands of years for water to alter the landscape.

The ocean, that's why the ocean is much higher now than it was. That is why the Black Sea was once a freshwater lake and now is part of the ocean.

Have you considered the melting glaciers as being part of that water? I have.

No I don't believe it or any of the other fantasies in the bible.

I believe it started out that way. I also believe that over the many thousands of years since, mankind has perverted His word to fit man’s own agenda.

There is evidence of a dramatic ocean level rise due to global warming way back when. It would have flooded ancient farming settlements and some people would have escaped the flood. Hence the story of Noah and his boat.

Genesis 6
The Story of Noah

9 This is the account of Noah and his family. Noah was a righteous man, the only blameless person living on earth at the time, and he walked in close fellowship with God. 10 Noah was the father of three sons: Shem, Ham, and Japheth.

11 Now God saw that the earth had become corrupt and was filled with violence. 12 God observed all this corruption in the world, for everyone on earth was corrupt. 13 So God said to Noah, “I have decided to destroy all living creatures, for they have filled the earth with violence. Yes, I will wipe them all out along with the earth!

14 “Build a large boat[c] from cypress wood[d] and waterproof it with tar, inside and out. Then construct decks and stalls throughout its interior. 15 Make the boat 450 feet long, 75 feet wide, and 45 feet high.[e] 16 Leave an 18-inch opening[f] below the roof all the way around the boat. Put the door on the side, and build three decks inside the boat—lower, middle, and upper.

17 “Look! I am about to cover the earth with a flood that will destroy every living thing that breathes. Everything on earth will die. 18 But I will confirm my covenant with you. So enter the boat—you and your wife and your sons and their wives. 19 Bring a pair of every kind of animal—a male and a female—into the boat with you to keep them alive during the flood. 20 Pairs of every kind of bird, and every kind of animal, and every kind of small animal that scurries along the ground, will come to you to be kept alive. 21 And be sure to take on board enough food for your family and for all the animals.”

22 So Noah did everything exactly as God had commanded him.

Look at what beavers can accomplish in a week.
When we first bought the property where we currently reside there were beavers present.
They could move the creek channel 50-100' in 7-10 days with ease it seemed.

That being quoted exactly cannot be considered probable with our current level of understanding. Two of every kind of land creature won’t fit on the boat with food required. More likely if an “ark” were used it wasn’t a floating boat holding millions of life forms in current form. But an “ark” can be a suppository for genetic data allowing recreation in ways we are just beginning to understand. Yes God is real and is the Creationist in Charge. He may at times speak in ways we can understand that give us the creation records, but not necessarily the absolute logistics involved.

There is literally no doubt that, interpreted literally, it never happened. Like much in Genesis, it is to be interpreted figuratively, e.g., God didn't literally form Adam with his hands from mud. That's a figurative way of stating that God set in motion events in precisely the way he knew that Adam would result.

Mountains of NC. Explains it.

Look outside the Bible. Some sort of massive flood occurred in ancient times

No other reason for every culture referencing a flood. Unless it's God.

He also referred to a beggar named Lazarus who died, and a rich man who also died at the same time, and told a story about them. He wasn't actually talking about two literal people. Yet, if people were to ask him again about them, he'd refer to them again like they were real. It's the message that's real. The parable is the mode for conveying the message.

Jesus also said you must be born again. So, have you tried reentering you mom's womb and coming back out again? Why not? It's the word of God that you must.

The solution is that he was speaking figuratively.

Nope

Look at how the lower Mississippi River has moved around in Louisiana. It has been as far west as the Atchafalaya River and has flowed down what is now Bayou Lafourche. In the 1830s our Red River in north Louisiana cut a new channel to the east just above the historic town of Natchitoches and did not rejoin the main channel for over 30 miles.

And scabies, mosquitoes, gnats, etc..

My brother's best friend growing up was a Jewish fellow. After high school, he entered training to become a rabbi, and was quite boastful with my brother about the depth of knowledge he had of the scriptures. My brother decided to play a trick on him and said, "Well, if you know so much about scripture, how many of each clean animal did Moses bring onto the ark." Boastfully, his friend proclaimed, "Three." My brother then told him that his knowledge of scripture was highly defective, as Moses didn't bring any animals onto the ark.

Could use an Ark about now. We had almost 7" of rain in the past day and a half

Lol.

You really hate Jews.

Why?

Agree. Hence, my logistics comment. Doesn't seem possible.

If we are not supposed to take it that literally, what is the explanation?

First of all, how does that story mean anyone hates Jews?

Secondly, rather than hating Jews, I hate what a powerful movement is doing to Western Civilization in a multiplicity of ways, and I observe that this movement is Jewish. Taking note of this is deemed hatred of Jews by some, but I don't view it that way at all. I deem it merely noticing.

If I hated Jews, I would hate everyone who was Jewish, but there are many who are Jewish who I not only do not hate, but rather like. Acknowledging and strongly opposing a movement that has a clear Jewish character isn't the same as hating Jews.

Define Jewish. In your eyes.

Cause the holocaust never happened.

Actually, let me ask this.

Do you, TRH, think the state of Israel should have never been established?

I've been very clear on these questions over many years. No need to rehash them here.

My first year of a Christian college I took a history class that laid out this story. I can't remember all the details anymore but it was very compelling. Count me in as a believer.

Please answer.

You claim it is the truth.

Truth should never be silenced.

It's just a fictional tale, invented by stone age know-nothings who had no other way of explaining things.

Those who claim they are "obeying the word of God" are actually obeying what some uneducated medieval Catholic monks, three hundred years after Jesus, decided was the "word" of
God. For instance, there are actually 11 (or so) gospels. They picked four.

I believe that more people would become Christians if some Christians would not insist that we believe in outrageous myths. Throw out most of Genesis and all of Revelation. A beast with ten heads and seven horns? Bah.

As an aside, there is no such thing as "settled science."

Absolutely impossible. 1000's of species of mammals on the earth during this time period. Including all the ones on Africa and the north like grizzly, polar bears, etc. How could they even visit all the continents to capture all the animals?
The sheer amount of animals, and capturing them, and storing the food, feeding them, building the cages, the ark, etc. The ark would of had to been at least the size of an air craft carrier.
Complete and total fairy tale.

" ... So God said to Noah, “I have decided to destroy all living creatures, for they have filled the earth with violence. Yes, I will wipe them all out along with the earth! ..."

I wonder how many millions of innocent men, women, and children, God killed???? On the boat, old Noah and his boys and girls would have been able to see thousands and thousands of bloated, decaying, rotten bodies floating all around the Ark. The smell must have been suffocating!!

L.W.

Was just thinking, were all the marine life sparred ?

It can be quite interesting to witness the varieties of responses/beliefs/contentions in a topic such as this, to the point where individual expressions of belief or non-belief form some sort of a backwash against which the reality and absoluteness of the individual relationship with God comes into focus. For some, the involved Covenant is the essence of the matter.

Matthew 19:26

the ones that died were '...animals that crawled or crept on the ground AND had the breath of life in it's nostrils...'

Marine life and plants were spared...

The reason Noah did not swat those two flies .he obeyed God.

Science always has the answers. Science always believe their answer explains everything. Science says everyone must believe what they say is true.

Then, science makes a new discovery. Science re-writes what they say is truth, and they insist you must now believe this new science. And so on.


That's not really much of a belief system if it's constantly changing. I'll stick with the one that proves itself right over and over again, yet has never changed.

No it doesn't. It says "here's what we believe today and if you have a better theory let's hear it."

The story of Noah's ark isn't for proving it existed, it is about a man that paid attention to what God told him and how he went about accompilshing that. To prove it is so, defies the meaning of the story and the old testament. Science is only a tool that unenlightened people use to try to disprove Biblical history.

No scientist could ever prove the evolution of the human eyeball, as it is so complex the theory of evolution won't begin to qualify it's existance. That is just one organ of the human body, find the evolution of how any of the rest of any animal or organism even makes sense to anyone other than someone attempting to disprove the Bible...

And, how could it rain for 40 days and 40 nights and cover the entire earth? I wanna know who the Jim Cantore was back in the day that predicted this rain storm.

So is it breath that gives us life according to the Bible? That breath of life keeps coming up in it:

Genesis 2:7 "Then the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being."

IF - The Med was a below sea level lake at the time, and...
IF - Gibraltar was a natural barrier to the Atlantic ocean, and...
IF - It failed catastrophically, rapidly creating the current geological condition?

I believe it.




GR

Is that what school books say when they present science to students? Is that what they say about evolution?

You're being disingenuous. And no I'm not the least bit interested in arguing today.

The flood is feasible if you look at the breakup of Pangea in a few years instead of millions of years. It wasn't all rain. The Bible says that much of the water came from underground. Think about a very flat Pangea and a shallow ocean. Pangea started to break apart and that released vast basins of water under tremendous pressure. It also says that mountains rose up and the valleys sank. As the water was squeezed out, the tectonic plates sank and twisted leaving high mountain ranges and deep ocean trenches. All the water that used to be under ground is now on top of it. Animals from the ark spread out and multiplied. They occupied various parts of Pangea and as it drifted apart, it ended up with different kinds of animals on different continents.
That would also line up with the later event of the tower of Babel. God scrambled the people's languages and out of fear, they spread out from each other. They spread over a disintegrating Pangea and were carried to different parts of the world.

Did it happen that way? I don't know, but the Bible does have lots of hints and those hints line up with those events.

We have complete copies or parts of at least 60 gospels and know of over 100 total that were written.

You're describing a local event, not a world wide event.

Yes I do! And the rest of the Bible too.

Where did the great flood take place, and who said it was global?


At the time, the Med, and maybe Asia, WAS the world.




GR

And it happened a dozen times or more, just in the LAST ice age.

A 2000 ft tall ice dam holding back the equivalent volume of Lakes Erie and Ontario produced a flow equal to 60 Amazon Rivers. The water ran from Montana, across N Idaho, and through Washinton State to the Pacific. The scars are still there plain for all to see 15,000 years later.


But wait, not possible! 15,000 years? That is before creation.

I think it’s possible that it’s allegory and metaphor. As I think it’s possible that Jonah and the Great Fish, and the literal 6 day Creation account in Genesis (for examples) are allegory and metaphor.

Actually yes! If the student is listening. I had learned that science evolves by Seventh Grade.

In just birdlife alone, thats 216,120 birds to capture. Did that small family run around the globe with butterfly nets and capture them? That feat alone, much less capturing 4,552 rodents and unknown thousands of other mamals would take a lifetime.
Believer or not, take a rational look at the logistics of just building a boat the size of an aircraft carrier, the traveling and capturing that amount of wildlife.....simply impossible.

Well, actually, as I recall it, the story is that God commanded the animals to come to Noah.

Yo Noah, you got that float ready, we ready to ride.

The Bible says that God is made manifest through his creation. You're right about those beavers. Amazing little dudes!

Don't know about the ark story but Alan C is it true that you and Wabi the Inane are directly related? Mb

Not even the discovery of Noah’s ark would cause some people to turn to God in faith.

Skeptics, close-minded critics, and atheists abound, as in the days of Noah.

Hmmm

I don't know that it's so much that people are atheist or don't believe in God, it's just that there are a lot of tales, stories, whatever you wanna call them in the Bible that contradict themselves, don't make sense, or are just outright unbelievable.

Or are not meant to be taken as literal history or science.

One does well to remember who actually put pen to paper, and when, and who their intended audience was.

The authors worked inside the knowledge base available to them at the time.

Good thing you're not interested, I'm not either.

And good to know you equate "school books" with science. That clarifies your level of understanding.

"School books" say what the local board wants them to say.

I do not know if I’m related to Wabi. If you ever do the ancestry thing, it will shock you . I might even be related to you Bob, though I might not claim it! On my dads side, the name came from England and my ancestor H. Cranfill and his two brothers came to Carolina around 1750. Have a great day Bob and keep your powder dry!

They could have been written for entertainment, like for modern stories about Pal Bunion, Superman, The Lord of the Rings. The people that wrote them might have thought quite amusing that people in the 21st century would take them as fact.

I believe the story of the Ark, but, like many biblical tales I don't always take them absolutely literally due to the many discrepancies in how the world was perceived in those times relative to how our knowledge has changed our perceptions now.

Geologists have proven to my satisfaction that at some point the Sahara and much of the middle east were large oceans. Geological changes caused these areas to lose their moisture by upheaval of tectonic plates, isolation of the oceans, lack of rain due to weather changes (one of many global warming cycles?), and other factors we can't know. If one of these flood periods described in posts above happened, it would have covered what was the "known world" at that point in time and would fit their definition of the biblical flood. This would have limited the numbers of animals to be considered for saving in their "world" and made the assumption of two of every animal to be an attainable goal. IMO, this is much closer to the reality of Noah's accomplishment than the often believed story that the entire earth was covered in a flood.

I believe in the bible, but I'm not one who takes it literally, but more figuratively or as parables meant to teach lessons while describing the lessons in way of text of real persons' lives and the cultural mores of the time- good and bad. Just like some people believe the world is only 6000 years old due to their interpretation of the biblical stories I don't believe in this literal interpretation of the bible.

As you already deny the existence of God, why press it any further. Recognizing God for who He is, needs no scientific evidence to justify His existence…

100% fairy tale. If God is as powerful as some of you claim he didn't need to tell Noah to do anything. God could of just struck dead the people he wanted to. End of story

Read the Bible. Noah didn't capture anything. God brought them. They came. They found their way there from all over.

The 'boat' wasn't a boat. It was a big container that only needed to float. It didn't need to be propelled or steered, just float. Nobody knows what it looked like but most likely it didn't have a bow or stern like that 'replica' in KY. It was more likely just an enormous box.

Good post. I’m inclined to agree with you as to the Earth's true age. For an eternal being such as God, I think it’s a little foolish to assume that His day is measured in 24 hours such as ours.
With that said, I’ll caution folks not to let the word “literally” blind you to faith. The whole idea of Gods salvation is based on faith in things unseen.
It’s a tall order for someone to believe that Noah could hand building a boat big enough, let alone fill it with the thousands of critters of Gods Creation, from 7 different continents!
But God specializes in doing the impossible. This is the One who created light out of darkness by speaking it into existence!
I count myself as reasonably intelligent, and fairly well read on some subjects. But the biggest part of knowledge for anyone is realizing that there’s millions of things beyond my comprehension that are true, just because God wills it to be so. I live in a 3 dimensional world. That is all that is real to my senses. But, I can understand there are other dimensions beyond my comprehension.
In order to accept the salvation He offers, all that is required of one is faith. If there were actual physical proof of Christ existence, death and resurrection, it wouldn’t require much faith, now would it?😀
Don’t let your sense of something literally being impossible sentence you to a very real and literal hell. Remember, it is by faith alone that we are saved!

There is nothing arbitrary about the length of a "day". The length of a "day" is not subjective.

It is well defined, even in Genesis as

A day is sunset to sunset. To say otherwise is revisionist. It is trying to alter traditional beliefs to fit present knowledge.

Sometimes we need to accept the fact that some traditional beliefs are simply wrong.

A few years ago, I was as usual curled up on the end of the couch reading history, while Wifey was watching something on the tube. The show she was watching was about Noah’s Ark, and the physical laws of physics making it impossible for one to build a boat, let alone having it actually float for the length of time required in a storm tossed sea of water.
It caught my attention long enough to see what they were talking about, and I said to Penny
“They’re sure as heck missing the obvious here!” She (a fellow believer) looked up and said “what do you mean”? I said “it doesn’t matter how unseaworthy a craft might be. If God wills it to float, what would you expect it to do?”😳
Reon

Much of the OT makes good sense as allegory and metaphor, but not so much when taken as literal history.

With GOD all things are possible

First, he'd have to exist.

Absolutely believe it. As I read most arguments against it here, it’s apparent most don’t know what they don’t know and argue from their or just common presumptions.

Got it straight from the Unicorn- it's true. Bigfoot confirmed it.

I suspect (if people were around when it happened- or intuited it later) that perhaps when the natural dam at Gibralter was breached and the Mediteranean basin filled, that is the basis for the Flood.

We are stardust.

A worldwide inundation of all the land and continents....with a boat built to save all the land species? Impossible. A fantasy morality tale told by priests to impress their flock. Oohh, aah, in the days of Noah....

Their knowledge of and devotion to their religion - science.

Star stuff.

Once again, If god is so powerful why didn't he just strike dead the people he wanted to instead of creating this wild situation that some people believe happened?

Yet you post on a world wide forum, thanks to the work of science.

What’s the old saying? Them That refuse to believe will accept no proof.
Them that chose to believe, need no proof!
It’s all very real if one chooses to accept it.
I’m not gonna argue with you fellows who choose not to. It is a personal choice, as God expected His children to make.
But look at it this way. If I’m wrong, we are nothing but resource users while we’re here, and nothing but worm food afterwards. But I’ll be remembered as a good person for a little while. The best any of us can do.
But if I’m right, ….

And science was created!


I absolutely believe in Noah and the Ark.


Bible study tonight continued to focus on Paul’s writings in Ephesians. Paul was an amazing man. I can see why God chose him to deliver his message.

Created? Science is a highly successful method of understanding the natural world.

Evidence or proof is the issue.

If you're right, what?

I thought God chose Jesus. Jesus never mentioned that someone would come along and write a codicil. Be careful. In addition to Jesus' apostles all the churches in Asia (Ephesus was one) rejected Paul.

God is science; the Master scientist. He brought it into being. Scientific study is following His trail of creation and the logistical process that occurred.

You're going to hell because you chose the wrong Christianity?

If I’m right, I’m going to be with the Fellow who has made and guided my life.
I’m pretty certain He knows how many hairs are on my head. Christ told us that He watches over the sparrows, and that I am worth more than sparrows!
Maybe there ain’t a big mountain to hunt like I’m hoping. Maybe I won’t get to meet all my heroes and family that have already gone home. Maybe it’s something indescribably better. None of us know ls until we’re there.
All I need to do is believe. “Knock and the door will be opened for you. Ask, and you shall receive. Seek and you will find.”
But by refusing to knock, ask, and seek, you’re gonna spend eternity in a dark place, where “there is weeping and gnashing of teeth “
Seems like it’s a pretty easy choice to me.
I have read and heard of near death/ post death and brought back experiences by believers and others.
Some describe a wonderful comfort, but non believers as a rule are terrified of going back.
Like I said, God’s plan is for his children to seek Him. This is why there’s no real evidence of some things. You must choose to believe, and grow in that belief, which is easy with the guidance of a good church and a very good leader. It honestly has made me hungry to serve my Master.
This is too serious a subject for me to tell anyone what I don’t believe myself, and hopefully my kids will read some of these things, and do some Knocking, asking and seeking of their own.
Maybe somebody on here will too.

Science was not created. "Science" came from questioning minds and need.

L.W.

With out any doubt, yes!

Those that want to know why t's reasonable should read "the Genesis Flood" by Dr. Henry Morris.

No

There is nothing reasonable about the genesis flood as it is described. As described, it's impossible. The timeframe is impossible. A world wide inundation has never happened, especially not four to five thousand years ago, which is ludicrous.

God is a finicky fellow when it comes to faith, get it slightly wrong and you are toast.

Not sure why you ask that?
I have laid out before on other post what to seek in a church and a pastor.
Reading of scripture is a must have. But so is backing up the scripture with more scripture!
It’s true, by picking up a verse here and a verse there, any church can justify almost anything. Satan himself knows scripture well, and he often uses it to confuse believers into following some one who has taken the name of God In vain. (It ain’t saying God dam)
Baptist ain’t going to heaven and Catholics not. There is no true church. I have never claimed there was. I’m just saying that There is a true God.
Reon

The only people who “rejected” Apostle Paul were the Judaizers, who then stirred up other Jews who insisted that the Law of Moses was binding on Christians:

Acts 21:27-28
27 And when the seven days were almost ended, the Jews which were of Asia, when they saw him in the temple, stirred up all the people, and laid hands on him,

28 Crying out, Men of Israel, help: This is the man, that teacheth all men every where against the people, and the law, and this place: and further brought Greeks also into the temple, and hath polluted this holy place. KJV

You clearly want to be a modern-day Judaizer and ignore Paul's unique role to the Gentiles that was given to him by Jesus Himself.

It is amazing to me that almost every culture around the world has a story of a flood in their beliefs. This had to be based on something.

I utilize it; I don't worship it.

Civilizations begin around rivers and rivers flood?

People all around the world who have a flood belief must have been flood survivors.

Bruce

This.^^^^^^^^

Best statement so far!

This thread has climbed to 8 pages in a single day, middle of the week at that!
I think people, even some of those who claim otherwise, are seeing the world going to hell and are looking for answers to life’s mysteries. We are surrounded by a spiritual battle. Satan knows his time is growing shorter, and has put truly evil people in most of the world’s governments. He is destabilizing everything, so that when the Antichrist arises, he can make stability out of the daily chaos in our culture and our world wide society. This will blind many people, even some Christians.
John tells us of a great falling away from the church in the end times. Christ warned us that many would come, claiming to be servants of His, deceiving even the elect.
As time gets shorter, the bad guys are naturally going to be more and more aggressive. Many people have already excepted false teachers and preachers.
Christ warned us that many would claim Him, but He will truly say “depart from me. I never knew you”!
There is much evidence of the Old Testament prophecies even now, being proven correct. Certain books of Old Testament prophecies are doubted by some as being truly old, because they are too accurate!
Not sure, thinking I saw somewhere last week that actual Egyptian chariots from the time of Moses, were discovered on the floor of the Red Sea! (?wish I had read that. If you know of an article I’d appreciate hearing of it)There is evidence of a man named Jesus Christ at that time as well, but as I said, many claim Christ as a prophet, but not His divinity. But there is some evidence of scripture being true, but like I said, if you had real physical evidence, you wouldn’t need faith.
Christ told His disciples that He was the Son Of God. So if you accept Him as a man, but not God In The Flesh, you got some explaining to do, or you’re teaching false doctrine, which Satan does constantly!
True Bible reading Christians will know this, but many churches don’t teach the Bible, only parts of it. Remember, Satan uses scripture himself.
Now it’s true that every generation of believers, many believed they were witnessing the beginning of the time that Daniel and John, many others too, warned us of. To deny this would be false, and I’m not trying to round up converts, I am simply warning those who are thinking that maybe the timing is right. I most certainly believe that the Antichrist will make his appearance in my lifetime. I’m 58 and I’m not figuring on dying of extreme old age!😀 Take it as a warning from someone who has a lot to lose by deceiving people. Act orvdon’t act as your heart tells you.
God doesn’t want you to fear Him. He wants you to look for Him.
As I did on the thread about Do You Believe In God, I’m gonna bow out.
Think on what I have said, and if you have serious questions about something that you think I can help with, I’d be honored to hear from you by PM.
God bless.
Reon

The only problem with it is that some civilizations were thriving when the flood was supposed to be going on, and had written records of themselves during that time period. For example, the approximate date of the flood as agreed upon by many Creationists would place it at about the year 350 according to the Chinese calendar (It's currently the Chinese year 4720). In other words, the Chinese were recording the date for 350 years already when the flood was supposed to have occurred, and the years continued to be counted without anyone in China noticing that they had all drowned.

Reon, I can see you teaching the Bible to young troubled teens who are lacking guidance. I think you would get a lot of satisfaction in this. I have a distant friend that teaches the Bible at a county jail to inmates. He likes it!

There have always been floods on every continent in the world, tidal surges, heavy rain, rivers overflowing. We have had some here in Australia just recently.

No need to. Nobody expects it. Science is a self proven system for studying the natural world.

Floods happen.

You do recall Paul lamenting to Timothy that "all in Asia" had turned against him? Jesus never endorsed Paul. Certainly not publicly. I'm suspicious of that meeting in the desert and the alleged appearance in the secret chambers of the house of Ananias.

Maybe I am a Judaizer, can you tell me who originated that designation and the definition? Were the original apostles Judaizers? Is the term pejorative or complimentary or maybe just descriptive of a believer in the continuation of the original covenant on the original terms?

Lots of people are haughty. Jesus said to be like these little ones.

“…for he (Paul) is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and the children of Israel.” - Jesus

There you go again

Yep, you are ~ unlike the Apostle Peter. And unlike James, the brother of Jesus and the leader of the Christian church in Jerusalem. They both made it crystal clear at the Jerusalem Council that not only is the Law of Moses NOT binding on Gentile Christians, but that Jewish Christians are also saved through the grace of Jesus just as the Gentiles are, and NOT by following the Law of Moses.

It wasn't Jesus who wrote the words. It's not a quote from Jesus.

OK, laying that aside why was Paul under such threat in Jerusalem from the original Christians and barely got out alive? Why did the Jerusalem church and all the satellite churches in Asia Minor turn on him? He said they did himself. Then if we are to believe legend he was killed in Rome after a leadership change or he at least disappeared.

I understand salvation is by grace because nobody deserves it but Jesus clearly refers to works as does James.

Signed: Hastings the Judaizer

It simply means to live as a Jew. The Law of Moses (the old covenant) is NOT the Abrahamic Covenant. When the prophet Jeremiah declared in the Jewish Bible that God was going to make a New Covenant, NOT like the old covenant that He made with only the ancient Israelites when He took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt…the covenant that they broke…he was clearly referring to the temporary and conditional Law of Moses. He wasn’t referring to the everlasting and unconditional Abrahamic Covenant.

Yeah, quoting Jesus’ own words. You clearly don’t like Jesus’ own words when they don’t jive with your already established beliefs and agenda.

Yes, that was reported by Ananias who received the message in secret just as Jesus warned us to be on the lookout for, not to mention the meeting out in the desert on the road to Damascus which Jesus also warned against.

Paul bears all the marks of an infiltrator commissioned by the Romans, the Jewish hierarchy, or a combination of both.

If he was I hope he repented at the end but we won't know for a while yet. Judgement day is coming when all will be revealed.

What the heck is a pandemic agenda.

It is my joy to believe; not only in the flood and the ark but in Jesus of Nazareth as the only begotten son of God, and my Savior. What any of you believe is your choice, but in the paraphrased words of Joshua, 24:19 "As for me and my household, we will serve the Lord". Hoping all y'all have a great day.

You want to lay aside the very answer to the questions you’re asking…! The only Christians who turned on Apostle Paul were the Judaizers, who then stirred up other Jews who insisted that the Law of Moses was binding on Christians.Works being evidence of, not a requirement for. Salvation isn’t by grace ‘and’ works. It’s by grace alone, through trust and confidence in Jesus alone. Period.

Question. If all the humans were wiped out in the flood, leaving Noah and his family as only survivors, how did we end up with all the different races ?

Now that's a good question for those that believe the literal version in Genesis. I don't believe that evolution could have accomplished that in a few thousand years. A Negro from Africa isn't going to evolve into a Swede or a Chinaman that quick or vice versa.

Jesus didn’t write any of His quotes throughout the New Testament manuscripts. Every single one of His quotes throughout the New Testament manuscripts was reported by someone else, and recorded (documented) by someone else.

You cherry-pick. You clearly disregard the words of Jesus that don’t jive with your already established beliefs and agenda.

OK then, were Jesus' original apostles that he publicly chose wrong? Were all the churches in Asia Minor wrong? It's an issue hard to get around.

We know from Paul's own words that the church at Ephesus and "all in Asia" rejected him. We know from Jesus' own words in The Revelation of Jesus Christ in chapter 2 he commended the church at Ephesus for rooting out false apostles. What gives there? In The Revelation written to the churches in Asia Minor not once does Jesus mention his servant Paul.

Signed: Hastings the Judaizer

Again, the only Christians who turned on Apostle Paul were the Judaizers, who then stirred up other Jews who insisted that the Law of Moses was binding on Christians.Only for you. That oughta tell ya’ somethin’.

It is written that Jesus upheld the law of the prophets.

Paul went his own way.

Paul never knew Jesus in person or, obviously, heard him speak.

Strange stuff happens, maybe like the cojoined twins, and one of them got married?

You CANNOT believe it, nor is it your call.

Romans 3:9-18 explains why.

..... lest any man should boast. And we would.

I recommend, Man in White by Johnny Cash.

Must have been a tall woodpile somewhere that didn't get flooded

pure fiction, and frankly just another iteration of a fairly wide spread middle eastern myth. Going down a rabbit hole like this is why we got the inquisition and the death by torture and burning of 'heretics'.

"A priest forever, according to the order of Melchizedek."

Yes. Floods happen relatively frequently.

People quoting scriptures from a book will ignore any question where they can't find a verse to make a point. I still don't understand why god had to get Noah involved. If god was so powerful he could of killed all the people he wanted to and saved the animals. Why did he need a boat?

All in Jerusalem and Asia turned against Paul. The record is clear. If he wrote that letter to Timothy, Paul himself said it.

There are sites dedicated to Paul being a false apostle. I notice there are only a few of you here that hotly defend Paul who claims to have been recruited in secret. He also had visions, traveled to heaven, and heard voices.

Modern-day Judaizer and wacko Hebrew Roots Movement sites.Not a single person here who professes to be a Christian…over all of these years that you’ve been spouting your Hebrew Roots Movement and modern-day Judaism psychobabble…has voiced agreement with you on these matters. Not a single one. Out of the thousands and thousands of views that these threads get, not a single person who professes to be a Christian has voiced agreement with you on these matters. Not a single one.

You notice what you want to notice, and you choose to not notice what you don’t want to notice. Just like you only choose to believe the words of Jesus when they jive with your already established beliefs and agenda, and you choose to disbelieve or discredit or dismiss the words of Jesus when they don’t jive with your already established beliefs and agenda.

"The Jefferson, "bible'?

Early Christianity was more complex than either of you imagine. Hasting is closer to the truth, but he still under estimates it by at least an order of magnitude.

Bart gives a nice outline in "Lost Christianities: The Battles for Scripture and the Faiths We Never Knew."

Yes, it was pretty thin.

That's what all them hypocrite "christians" do, why you mad at Hastings about it?

Well good, we are getting ''thousands and thousands of views''. Might have some folks checking out their beliefs. But there are only a few of you Paulinians weighing in.

You don't think Paul comes across as a bit strange and possibly asexual or deviant?

Lot of pope's and priest got Paul in their name 🤣🤣

True, I had a great uncle named Paul, one of my good friends is named Paul. There are probably several hundred thousand Pauls in the country.

Not sure why the one in question changed his name. It was Saul.

You’re upset. Clearly. Now you’ve deduced that Paul is not only “a bit strange” but he’s now also possibly “asexual or deviant”…?

You gettin’ hot and bothered about the truth doesn’t change the truth. I didn’t make it the truth. It just is. It’d still be the truth if I’d never even mentioned it.

No, I'm not upset, I'm suspicious. And you are not a mind reader.

Who here is getting upset if you judge by their posting.

I just post my suspicions which could be wrong, but I think the "Christian" church of Rome swept a lot under the rug and then proceeded to terrorize any that brought up questions.

Antelope Sniper even though he is atheist or agnostic has presented just a small sample of early Christianity the history of which was banished but which somehow survived. I find the Ebionite "heresy" particularly interesting as it was thought imperative to rid the world of their theology which was based on Matthew's gospel minus the first 2 chapters. About the only history we have of the Ebionites was written by their enemies. Just because Roman Christianity ruled something heresy doesn't necessarily mean it was heretic.

Antelope Sniper alluded to Thomas being Jesus twin.If that were true the Roman Church would have had a huge interest in suppressing that although there are Syrian scriptures that say that Mary birthed twins when Jesus was born.

If you notice the genealogy of Jesus while differing somewhat both list Joseph as his father and many early Christians including the Ebionites did not subscribe to the virgin birth story.

There is a lot of vested interest in the various Jesus stories so I try to weed out obvious contradictions and additions when they are obvious but that in no way detracts from the teachings, ministry, and prophecy, of Jesus.

Hope so. Re-examining our beliefs and why we have them is a good thing. You might consider it yourself. But not a single one of those “thousands and thousands of views” who profess to be Christians who are hopefully checking out their beliefs…over all of these years…has weighed in with an agreement with you on these matters. Not a single one.

Thanks. I hadn’t ever given it much thought, but I have been praying that I would find a way yo break open the discussion with loved ones. Something I’ll pray about though.

Saul’s name was also Paul. The custom of dual names was not uncommon in those days. Jude was also called Thaddaeus. Matthew was also called Levi. Peter was also called Simon, Cephas, and Bar-jona (Son of Jonah). And Nathanael was also called Bartholomew.

This is common knowledge. And a student of the Bible would know this. You’d think that one who was so interested in ‘knowing’ the truth…as you ‘claim’ to be…would have sought that easily obtainable information out. Especially since you’re unsure about it, as you’ve said above. Could it be that you simply used it as another opportunity to cast doubt on Paul’s character by insinuating that there was more to it than there actually was…?

For all of you naysayers:

Why do you think rainbows appear in the sky?

Why do you think God flooded the Earth?

This discussion reminds me that God gave us choice in all things- He won't force us to believe in Him, or any one thing or act He laid out in the Ten Commandments, but he has laid out what it will take to reach His kingdom very clearly.

Due to the available choice He has bestowed us with I would think it would be natural to have doubts, to disagree and/or argue about the relative values of his teachings through the apostles, and for the faithful to come through those discussions as His people? It is clearly defined that only the faithful will enter into His kingdom, though I don't for a minute believe some of the ridiculous claims of a small number of people will be chosen- and I don't remember the number I keep hearing quoted due to not taking it seriously. There is no doubt we will all live our lives, make decisions every day which will affect us and others around us, and face death at some undetermined (by us) time. What we will face then is unknown to most of the living but there seems to be enough proof of what to expect from those who have died and been brought back to make assumptions inevitable. Is it enough for you or I to change how we live our lives? The choice is up to you..

Jesus’ own brother, James (the leader of the early church in Jerusalem) and the apostle Peter clearly separated Christianity from the worldview and value system and regulations of the old covenant (the Law of Moses). This was done by Jewish leaders of the early church at the First Jerusalem Council to settle the matter once and for all. And it was done in 48 to 50 AD, well before the Roman Catholic church and the Roman government’s controlling involvement with Christianity even began. It’s well documented in the 15th chapter of Acts of the Apostles.

The apostle Paul simply affirmed the above decision. He, as did James and Peter, eventually let go of God’s temporary and conditional covenant that He made with only the ancient Israelites (the Law of Moses) to embrace God’s permanent and unconditional covenant that He made with the entire human race (Jesus’ New Covenant).

I worked for a company that produced them. Odds are not in your favor. At the time, Iowa Lottery had about a 62% pay out.
Sure, you can get lucky now and then. I could never play them being associated with my company. That was a no-no.

Any relation to a Richard from up thataway?

J/K

Dude,

That Noah guy must have had a lot of help gathering over 2 million species ( maybe subtract the aquatic ones???) to get on that boat and keep them going until the waters receded. And if he didn't get all 2 million described species, maybe there wasn't a 10th that many at the time, then that would mean there has been a lot of speciation (evolution) going on in the years after the Ark landed?


Then again, one doesn't have to believe everything one reads on the internet, right? Just because a bunch of scientists have a method they use to describe an organism, doesn't mean they get it correct.......

While the discussion on how to read or even believe what is in the Bible goes on I have a question, maybe more of an observation.

We banned public prayer in the schools in the 60s. The 70s brought us abortion. The clamor has been going on even before that to make the mention of God non acceptable in our halls of justice and government. obama declared us a NON Christian nation, for me he was not observing the moral decay but hopeful to further move us that direction. Private business owners have been fined heavily for siting their Christian faith as being a reason to not participate in same sex marriage and other such things. It's very clear that as a nation the move towards denying God and His influence is well underway and being carried out more as time passes. It's not a long shot to see the mere mention of anything in the Bible as being considered hate speech. We even had a school board member sworn in with her hand on some sort of sicko pedophilic book if my memory serves me.

Now here's my question. We should assume that since everything is done for the good of the people, especially the children, the democrats site that is being just one of the many reasons to abolish the 2nd Amendment. And you have to admit the cleansing of God from everything possible is being carried out to order then when will see start to see improvements within our nation? When will crime rates drop? When will a man's handshake be as binding as any legal document? When will hate be abolished? When will we see the utopia we have been promised?

Do you really believe there were no rainbows in the sky after a rain and with the sun shinning through falling rain, until after the flood??

L.W.

I don't see such a distinction in that post - the denominational aspect is not conditional there. Non-believers are free to design their own reasons for rejection and are free to critique, ridicule and make fun of the choices of believers. So be it.

However, that freedom of choice and opportunity for critique affords them no superiority of view or reasoning. Decisions about going to Hell are the province of the decider, not in any way controlled by the thoughts or wishes of believers.

This is the view of a human being - apparently designed/intended to establish the scope and quality of reasonableness - of course limited by paucity of human knowledge and understanding. Such statements can be well worked out, but also seem completely inconsiderate of the concept of faith - the belief in the Supreme Being and all of God's powers - the extensive knowledge and reasoning well beyond human understanding. It seems sensible to make this rational distinction once in a while.

You need to know more about that. He wanted the Indians to learn about Jesus. He cut out All of Jesus' Words and pasted them together for them.

Anti-God folks distorted the facts.

Luke 1"37

Is that why Evangelical Christians go on mission to Mexico and the Philippines to save the Catholics from Hell?

Honestly, I haven’t a clue as to what in the heck you’re talking about!😀
It occurs to me that you don’t either!😟

Because all civilizations and cultures were based on colonies along major rivers and sea shores. And most of them have suffered catastrophic flooding at some point.

As the miles thick ice sheets receded from Europe and Asia, they released huge quantities of water. They flooded river plains. They raised ocean levels.

Populations which had survived the ice age in the warmer low lands became inundated with runoff.

Unless one wants to deny the ice ages along with with the rest of Earth's observable natural history.

Yes, I believe it.

It’s not only pretty clear…it’s very clear…that the Godless Utopia that militant atheists claim is possible is just as much of a fantasy as they claim that Christianity is.

It’s not enough for the militant atheists to not believe, they don’t want ‘you’ to believe. They can’t stand it. It clearly absolutely eats em’ up. Their position clearly has zero to do with “sorting fact from fiction”, nor does their position have anything to do with reason or logic or truth or science or evidence. When it’s said that they would ‘still’ deny Jesus and Christianity even if they knew for a fact that it was true…as has been done right here on the Campfire…that’s clearly not a position that has anything to do with reason or logic or truth or evidence.

Christianity clearly has a history of violence, such as the Crusades and the Inquisition, etc., over the last 2000 years. But atheistic regimes have been far more violent. Atheistic regimes have killed well over 120 million people in just the 20th century alone.

But that doesn’t negate the abuses by the Christian Church against people, nor does it negate the abuses by Christians against other people either. But those things were man’s doin’, they weren’t God’s doin’. Thankfully following Jesus doesn’t mean following His followers. And putting one’s trust and confidence in Jesus for one’s salvation is only between one and God.

I’m convinced that…even if you don’t believe that Jesus is who He says He is…following Jesus’ teachings will make one’s life better, and it will make one better at life.

Me too

Oh my, a large ship where the birds don't eat the bugs, and the snakes dont eat the vermin...

Its so very, very believable.

LOL

That is where I am.

I firmly believe a group of radical priests had recognized that the practice of driving the Church with a whip was failing. The Church had to come to grasp with the fact they could only survive by becoming a secondary authority under the newly formed national governments which were taking hold in the region.

These priests, the radical liberals of their day, knew that religion had to lead with the carrot, rather than drive with the stick if it was to survive. They used a man named Jesus of Nazareth as their spokesman and apparent leader.

The tenants of Christianity are wondrous rules on which to found a society.

Still, the Chinese and the Indians have done pretty well without them. Even the Greeks, the Persians, and the Romans had pretty successful histories going back a long time before the advent of Christianity.

Without faith it's impossible to please God. So a lot of you here are going to have a different address in the afterlife than I will

Wish Noah did not collect the mosquitoes, flies, ticks and mice for the boat ride. Add fleas to my wishes.

That^^^

Laughing here. We will all be worm food.

Can you offer me proof of that?

Folks that do those things seem to know very well why they do, and you seem not to know much in comparison. At this moment, our son in law and a group from their church up in WA (including several youths on Spring break) are in Guatemala- living out in small native villages - installing simple yet very effective metal cooking stoves for families who normally have cooked over open fires. That is their mission this week. Does that assist your understanding?

So, when are you going to reenter your mother's womb and be born again. If you must take everything literally in the Bible, you must do that to be saved.

The solution is that Jesus was speaking figuratively, as the Bible often does.

What are you fools smoking? But sure glad he saved deer ticks, eh?

What are you fools smoking? But if you truly believe? sure glad he saved deer ticks, eh? And can ya see a whale on the ark?

And this my friend is the only reason all religions exist.
To place fear into people to turn them into sheep.
If you believe, then I am glad your life is better as a result.

You seem to forget that I've spent some time in a Church, so when I talk of Evangelicals going on missions to save the Catholic from Hell, those are not my words, but those of the Evangelical ministry. Perhaps your son in law is on a mission the to improve the lives of fellow Christians who happen to be Catholic. Perhaps he's installing stoves as his "way in" to the village so he can save their poor dammed Catholic souls. I don't know, if it's the former, good for him, but if it's the latter, well, that has it's own implications.

You left out the part about keeping the Priests well housed, well fed, and well laid.

To paraphrase Mel Brooks, "It's good to be the Priest."

I don't have any explanation of how it could have occurred , But , I know of at least a couple of fossils of large 3'plus sea fish on the top of buttes in central Wyoming. Many shell fish also, And if you look at a topo map of the area , it looks like a rather impressive flood raged through there and the buttes would have been High points.....

I don't know where you live in Wyoming but there is a National Park service National Monument called Fossil Butte that might could clear up some questions about unusual fish fossils in your state. It is in the SW part of the state near Kemmerer Wy. The visitor center has a lot of informative exhibits and displays. This old world has been through lots of changes and upheavals over the last few hundreds of millions of years. The visitor center has fossils of fish that are similar to our gars and bowfins in Louisiana. One display claims CO2 was 20X higher in the distant past on earth than it is now. Supposedly there was an ancient sea that connected the Gulf of Mexico to the Artic Ocean up through the middle of the present U.S. The oceans have in the past been much lower than they are now and also much higher. And some of our mountains have been pushed up out of the sea bed and taken their fossils along for the ride.

I once had an idiot Baptist preacher claim the sea shells found at 8000 feet elevation in Guatemala was prof of the world wide flood. As if.

Yes.

I think maybe a return trip is in order, either to get a refund or to pick up whatever it was that you missed out on.
I don’t know what your beef is, but if you don’t mind, I’ll put in a word for you with the Boss. He can fix any and all problems, but like I said, it’s up to you to approach Him.
Reon

I’ve found marine fossils in the Texas Hill Country; and I’ve found marine fossils in the Guadalupe Mountains of West Texas; and I’ve found marine fossils in the Rocky Mountains of Colorado. But I think all of these fossils are likely the result of plate tectonics and mountain-building tectonics. These deposits were likely once at the bottom of oceans…and through the above processes…they were thrusted up into their current positions and created the hills and mountains.

lmao

No offense as, but that was funny af.

Yes, there was no rain until the ark was finished, which took 50+ years.

Uhhhhh, okay. But that begs the question of how did people, including Noah, his family, and millions of people and animals around the world eat?? It takes rain to grow crops and vegetation. In 50 years, everyone and everything living would have starved to death. God wouldn't have needed to kill everyone as everyone would already have died.

L.W.

If you read the story from the beginning of the Book, you will understand why rain was not required. The story of creation and the Flood is only about six or eight pages at the start of the Bible.

Let's stay real - I haven't forgotten that stuff because I never knew it, have no idea how much time you might have spent in a church, and have no way to understand what some "Evangelicals" may have told you. I based my reply on what you stated.

You can "perhaps" as you wish, but those folks are traditional Lutherans and I know exactly why they are working and serving in Guatemala. In that you seem concerned with form, would you care to identify the "form" of Christianity you have chosen?

John Chau tried to spread the good word to the North Sentinelese islanders - they responded with a firm and unambiguous "no thanks".

I don't consider Traditional Lutherans among the Modern Evangicals. IME, typically they are more about the good deeds for the sake of the deeds, vs for the sake of the conversions. A lot of Lutherans are what I call "functional Atheist". Sure, they believe (or at least claim to), attend church, say grace, and go on the occasional mission, but there's no practical difference between them and they typical Atheist, no science denying, or wacky beliefs or politics rooted in fundamentalist religious beliefs. In general, they are not the droids I'm looking for.

It is not my role to try to characterize people in different Christian denominations or emphasize what one "considers" them to be - or to try to describe what they typically believe and do. To me, those "characterizations" generally are useless and meaningless, particularly in light of the true and fundamental basis for the Christian - a personal and deep relationship with God through belief and faith. It might be interesting to know the fruits of labors such as yours.

That said, and given your description, you most obviously do not know and understand the Lutherans in my circle.

Maybe.
Or perhaps we have more in common than you think. Or maybe I'm wrong and you are a bunch of fundamentalist YEC Snake Handlers, but for some reason, I doubt that's the case.

The Bible is very detailed about Noah's story. It's definitely not presented as an allegory. Sorry your faith is found wanting 😔

It also states in detail that God formed Adam from the mud. Do you suppose that's literally the case?

It says dirt. And I absolutely do

How many of us can make any little thing our thin air?

Well, bless your heart.

The afterlife eh, no reports from there. Only fear of the unknown, do you live in fear of what may come of you? Or do live every day as a humble human being without regard for some reward?

The Bible asks "who has believed our report?" I live my life believing that report. And that's how I will stand before God

You Baptist!

I agree John, and perhaps I can build on this.

First of all, the Bible as the Word of God is a supernatural book, and cannot be apprehended or completely understood by human reason or experience. You don’t believe in it?..that’s your choice.

Psalm 14 says those “who do not believe in God are fools”.. you choose.

The dimensions of the ark are of a barge not a ship. It was meant to float, to save, not to sail to a location. Again, the animals God led onto the Ark were of “kinds” not species (see Genesis 6). A “kind” is a group much broader genetically than that of “species”…with a huge amount of genetic information that allowed diversification (like selective breeding) among the differing environments resulting from a worldwide flood. Perhaps the “kinds” were also the very, very young to preserve room.

The fish of course would be excluded from the ship and perhaps others — the insects.

Why did God choose The Flood for His purpose? I can’t be sure but remember “His ways are not our ways.” I believe the all of the world’s resulting geological formations are a result of the Flood; ie, the Grand Canyon, the Himalayas, etc and all of how that impacted human experience thereafter. His purpose is far reaching and far beyond first observations.

Monotheism preceded all pagan beliefs in god(s). And all cultures have a flood legend. These preceded from the oral tradition from the earliest Biblical patriarchs of a belief in Yahweh and His revelation — including the Flood — to them.

If you survey the Scripture you will find your answer in Genesis 2:5-6
5Now no shrub of the field was yet in the earth, and no plant of the field had yet sprouted, for the LORD God had not sent rain upon the earth, and there was no man to cultivate the ground. 6But a mist used to rise from the earth and water the whole surface of the ground.

In the end, it matters not what any one thinks or supposes. What matters is the written Word of God.

There is no wisdom and no understanding
And no counsel against the LORD.
Proverbs 21:30

Amen

The flood myth has been thoroughly debunked in so many ways that it can only believed by faith. But contradictory and impossible propositions are believed by faith all the time.

The heat generated by accelerated radioactive decay alone is enough to vaporize earth's crust. Then add in the heat released by the formation of limestone and dolomite and the friction generated by continents galloping about at race car speed. If all this happened in a year the Earth would be a ball pf plasma.


Many other branches of science disprove the flood myth. (12-part series)

Debunked by whom? And on what basis? Meteorology?

It’s a good thing that one’s salvation does NOT depend on believing literally in Noah and the Ark. And it’s a good thing that following Jesus does NOT depend on believing literally in Noah and the Ark either.

Other branches of science? Like the branch of science that that brought us the Covid vax’s? Or that from the scientists of the branch promoting human-caused climate change?

Human bias in select presuppositions is in play.

Spherical water droplets (they're spherical because of surface tension) cause different wave lengths of light to be diffracted in different directions. This has been known since about 1700.

Why do you think that God flooded the earth? There is no evidence of any world-wide flood. There is substantial evidence that none occurred.

Why didn't you pay attention in junior high school?

Yet, from Adam to Noah, 100s of thousands of people found fruits, and vegetables, and grains to consume. And their herds of livestock found grazing. All without a shrub or plant ever sprouting.

Curiouser and curiouser.

Not to mention civilizations with written histories far preceding the recorded date of Noah.

Genesis was not written for a thinking man.

A thinking man would ask, "Who impregnated Eve's daughters?"

Good thoughts. But. In those days the earth was one land mass and the human population was mostly in one or maybe two concentrated areas. The animals were not gathered. They were sent by God to the Ark. People really can't comprehend the power of God. The ark was as big as the Bible tells us. All species of animals were able to fit in the vessel because God can do all things. It may have rained for 40 days and 40 nights but the Earth literally opened up and brought the water. People should take the Bible literal. Im a believer. My faith is entirely dependent on Jesus Christ and what the Bible says. The Bible tells us there were wicked people on the earth and nephilm who were corrupting the human race genetic code, so he destroyed all mankind. If the Bible says it happened, then it happened. No questions asked.

Just remember this. God can do all things and never question the almighty. He is the ultimate judge in the end and we will all stand before him! That's an absolute truth. Amazing to me how many people in this world are lost and spiritually dead or blind. Jesus is the way, the truth, and the light. Believe and repent now!

HE is God, we are not,

Christ himself said "as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be at the coming of the Son of Man". So Jesus believed in Noah and the Ark

[quote=Idaho_Shooter]Genesis was not written for a thinking man.

You might think a bit more. If you reject Genesis as part of God’s infallible word, then ok.

If you are trying to make sense of who’d impregnate Eve’s daughters in the context of the rest of the book, then you’d know Adam and Eve had many sons and daughters, grandchildren, great-grands, many nieces and nephews, etc.

Adam lived over 900 years, and Eve presumably very long also..think of the exponential population growth.

Thus there was a lot intermarriage among their progeny and their progeny's’ progeny.

Yet Leviticus speaks plainly about the results of incest.

"Good thoughts. But. In those days the earth was one land mass and the human population was mostly in one or maybe two concentrated areas."

So 6,000 years ago, you believe Pangea was the single land mass on the planet?

How did Adam and Eve have nephews and nieces?

Most likely, planet is moving all the time.

A generation ago that approach mighta worked for most, but it clearly ain’t workin’ anymore. Not nowadays. The Internet makes information easy to come by and most people nowadays don’t just automatically trust what they hear from a pastor. The Internet means folks can learn about anything, anytime, anywhere. And folks do. But in most churches nowadays, a lotta people still behave like this isn’t the case.

A generation ago most folks simply trusted what they heard from their local pastor. In some cases, the local pastor was one of the most educated and most listened to people in the community, and certainly in the life of those who attended church regularly.

But today most of the folks who attend church…and everyone the Christian Church is trying to reach…has googled their way to an opinion and a position on almost everything. They’ve binge listened to the New Atheists and a host of other skeptics, and come to you with pre-formed opinions on almost everything.

It ain’t just goin’ away to college that crumbles people’s faith anymore. Many teenagers and young adults have YouTubed their way to their own views and positions on God, Jesus, the Christian Church, and spirituality.

All of these different and strongly held views and positions likely don’t hold water. But that still doesn’t stop people from holdin’ em’.

I agree. Wholeheartedly.

Or He coulda simply been referring to the analogy and metaphor of Noah and the Ark to make His point.

Regardless, one’s salvation does NOT depend on believing literally in Noah and the Ark. And following Jesus does NOT depend on believing literally in Noah and the Ark either.

you can believe the Sumerian Flood story or the Greek Flood story or Hindu Flood story or Chinese Flood story........no, i do not believe in any story.

Covtards "don't believe" the Bible, but believe in an invisible boogey virus.

All ya need ta know.

"In the last days scoffers shall come, walking according to their own lusts"

The real question is not do you believe the story of Noah’s Ark, but do you believe in Jesus birth, walking the earth as a human, death, and resurrection. Either you believe and will receive eternal life or not.

The Christian Church has always had to evolve as Science provided newly found facts which had to be embraced.

The Church has always resisted that evolution, but eventually come to terms with the facts.

When is the last time you heard a Priest claim the Earth was flat, or that the Earth, or even that the Sun was the center of the Universe.

The difference today is that Science is discovering facts faster than any time in history and those facts are being propagated across the face of the Earth faster than ever before. The human race is more educated than ever before in History.

That makes people less susceptible to embracing folk lore and fairy tales.

You place this here as if one should be ashamed to have written it. Laughing here!
Which part of that would you claim to be untrue?

Was Covid not doubling every four days?

Did not many people never know they had it?

Were those people not contagious?

There are none so blind as those who will not see. grinning here!

Absolutely. I believe the earth is only 6 to 6500 years old.

Postin it as proof that you're a moron.

Which it certainly is.

You keep postin on this site as if anyone would attribute any credibility ta your posts.

Which shows that your cognitive dissonance is equal ta your stupidity.

You're done here.

A thinking man would know it was Eve's sons.

You are seeing when mutations were so much God had Moses make a law preventing it. That was hundreds of years after the Flood. Abraham married his sister. His kids married their cousins.

That is what I thought. NO evidence to the contrary of my statements you have so proudly archived and resurrected.

I am glad I can be a source of amusement and entertainment to you. You are fully welcome to continue to follow me around and make equally ignorant posts.

I am far from done here.

Yes Rich, obviously. That was my point.

Another example of an Eternal and Omniscient God rewriting and changing His Law over time?

You're too fckin stupid ta realize you have no credibility on the 'fire.

Keep wastin your time.

At what time in that 6000 years did the dinosaurs walk the Earth? At what time did most of the Northern Hemisphere become covered in ice sheets?

This very week a man asked me how much of the Bible does on need to believe to be save. Despite me believing the earth to be about 6,500 years old a little older and accepting the Flood as literal, I told him the only thing required to be saved is believe in Jesus' life, death, and resurrection. That includes being nailed to a Roman cross through the hands, not the wrists and being buried for three days and nights.

OH ouch! That one almost hurt. But then I considered the source.

If ya considered the source, ya'd x outta the 'fire, ya covtard POS.

See there, you did it again. I told you before. I am proud to be considered a POS by an idiot like you.

It is almost like Hunter Biden attempting to insult my virtue.

What part of "potential" and what part of "mitigation" are you too stupid to understand?

Are you having fun yet?????

Just keep posting up historical FACTS. They make you look, well something.

You just carry on. You are doing a fine job of exemplifying your level of intelligence.

I am going to bed.

LOL, you gotta million of em.

It's almost like, ya post alla the time, bout shat ya got no clue about.

Seems like, anyone not as smart as you, has a problem.

Smart.

Basically a paraphrasing of John 3:16, the Gospel in a nutshell. 👊🏻

This is too easy.

Apologies for the hijack, Antlers.

Roll Tide

Hid facts make you look like someone that bought the big lie about covid. It also proves that those that refuse to fear and honor God will fear and honor the devil.

Yes, Idaho Pooper is on the Covick Wall of Shame

He was referring to the story of Noah and the Ark because of the truths contained in it, not because it literally happened. Like me saying to someone about to run a cross country race against a slower opponent, "Remember Aesop's tortoise and the hare." There are valuable truths in the account, despite it never literally having occurred.

Six thousand years is the blink of an eye on the geological time scale.

Yep. Jesus used parables in His teachings, and they are clear examples of allegory and metaphor.

Meteorology
Geology
Paleontology
Dendrochronology
Zoology
Anthropology
Archeology
Mythology
Zookeeping
Animal Domestication
Physics
Chemistry
Radioactive Decay
It is clear that you did not even look at the titles in the playlist.
If the only way you can maintain your faith is to dismiss, without consideration, any criticism of your position what does that say about your dedication to the truth?

Irrelevant. Nice dodge.

You mean the presupposition that "Magic man in the sky done it"?
Science relies on a bare minimum of presuppositions. The cosmos exists. We can learn things about the cosmos. Theories that can make testable predictions are more valuable than those that cannot.

Don’t strain yourself. Just pretend I didn’t respond..

What if what happened is god took DNA from every species on earth, then destroyed the world with a flood, then reintroduced the species he wanted back into the world afterward and the story of Noah is man's interpretation of what happened.

I’ve thought about that . You would not have to feed an animal on an ark. The ark could be just an object that a human could relate to. Animals could have been also converted to dust once entering the ark and then later brought back.

Yes.

Would he have to take it? Or were there species He didn’t create in the first place?

MoLots of possibilities that early man would not be able to comprehend.

Noah was an



ALIEN!

He begat Shem, Ham, and Japheth at about 500 years old. Easy enough for a ALIEN to do.

And the Ark was a




SPACESHIP

easy enough to get above the floodwaters that way.

this stuff ain't hard to figure out folks.

You're presuming he exits, a presumption for which you have not offered sufficient evidence.

Was that an episode of Ancient Aliens on The History Channel?

Yeah. I think loading everything on a boat is just a way for our minds to begin to understand.

There is no strain involved in disproving the flood myth. Your incredibly weak response was only a palsied criticism of science and did nothing to support your position.

interesting thought...

Nice!! Did you used to have a sock puppet named Gus?

No, and it wasn't Shem, Ham, and Japheth either.

It was Shemp, Moe, and Larry and it was an episode of the Three Stooges.

You mean like the Port Cloud?

Do you mean the Oort Cloud?

"Scientists think the Oort Cloud is a giant spherical shell surrounding our solar system. It is like a big, thick-walled bubble made of icy pieces of space debris the sizes of mountains and sometimes larger. The Oort Cloud might contain billions, or even trillions, of objects." ..."Though long-period comets observed among the planets are thought to originate in the Oort Cloud, no object has been observed in the distant Oort Cloud itself, leaving it a theoretical concept for the time being. But it remains the most widely-accepted explanation for the origin of long-period comets."- science.nasa.gov/solar-system/oort-cloud/

If you are referring to the Oort Cloud what does a theoretical concept of the origin of long-period comets have to do with the flood myth?
If you are referring to something else please explain.

Auto-correct is a real pain.

All these religious threads make it too complicated . Believe on The Lord.

It is too cold for infrared telescopes to detect and too dark for light telescopes to see.

It is nothing more than a rescuing device to get around the fact of a young solar system.

dudes

I don need no tellebishun show to gibb me no ideers

Noah was instructed to take '...every KIND of animal...' GEN 7, not species........

IF, now, he took pairs of every genus and not species, that would substantially reduce the space needed...

The Greek word from the septuagint is genos, translated 'kind'

Great, so he let's say he took one pair of serpents, one pair of lizards, one pair of mosquitos, one pair of "cats", one pair of elephants, and so on, how do you account for the multiple species that occurred (speciation/evolution) in the intervening period of, let's say 6000 years as there's a thread going on about that?

GOD did not 'create' mules..........HINT.

Anyone that believes this bs about taking two of every animal is on crack. I think he might have needed a bigger boat and maybe just a little bit of food and water to sustain this population of critters. Just out of curiosity how many people did Noah take with him?

7

OK, so man bred mules for a purpose.

did man breed 3000 species of snakes in the world from the one pair God had Noah take along? or did Noah take 3000 pairs, one pair of each "KIND" ?

Or perhaps you don't believe there are 3000 species of snakes in the world?


that's just one source, I'm sure a search could easily find other sources with similar numbers. Perhaps the Herpetological societies have more info since they make a science of studying those thing?

Or, at the time of Noah, just how many "kinds" of animals existed and what was the definition of "KIND" at that time?

Ar we talking along the lines of one KIND of mammal, one KIND of bird, one KIND of reptile? (prolly no need for one KIND of fish as they could prolly live in the flood waters)

Because junior high did not exalt the knowledge of God above the foolishness of man. God uses the foolish things to shame the wise. I see evidence of that every day.

Read the story. It is only a few pages.

It’s a novel ringman smoke another bowl. 7876 pairs of animals on the ark you had better smoke two bowls if you believe that. 🚬

Where are ya ringman we feed about a thousand cows of varying sizes daily with 7 guys and use tractors. Now granted that a lot of the animals were smaller which would require less food but also a different type of food not to discount the amount of water required per animal. I can tell you that you would need an aircraft carrier to hold enough food and water for over 15000 animals for 371 days. Go ahead and smoke that third bowl. Hell I might be considered the new deflave for calling out somebody for their lunacy. Change my mind. The ball is in your court.

Yep. Sure do

You are rejecting the idea of hibernation and estivation.

You are also confusing your limited experience and knowledge with someone who was instructed by The Supreme Being what to do and how to do it. That same Supreme Being brought the Flood knew how to protect the ark and the creatures in it for the thirteen months of the Flood.

the Flying Spaghetti Monster says the whole thing is a hoax.



https://www.spaghettimonster.org/about/

So, for example, no need to take all the cat species, right? Just take two cats (or three) of one species, and then, once they hit dry land and disembark, they can evolve into all the species of cats we know today, such as lions, tigers, snow leopards, house cats, etc., right? But how long would that evolution take to occur? We're talking, what, four thousand years? Five thousand since the flood? That extent of evolution takes tens of millions of years. Also, if you propose that four or five thousand years was enough time, why do we have ancient, four and five thousand year old paintings and statues of many of the species of cats we know today. Shouldn't there still have been just one kind of cat that walked off the ark at that time, assuming your "kinds" theory were correct?

This is what happens when we try to explain a miraculous event...

The axehead either floated, or it didn't............ HINT

Answer this if the supreme being is so supreme why not just let shiit happen which he caused and recreate the world with a fresh new start of all animals. So let me get this straight we were all descendants of Adam and Eve until the great flood and now we are all the descendants of 7 people on the ark you want to talk about a case of incest. I’ve got one for you to digest as more people claim they’ve seen big foot than claim to have seen god and as far as anyone knows we just might be a science experiment for a sixth grade alien.

There was no law against incest until hundreds of years after the Flood. God claims He can span the stars with His hand. That is too large for us to see.

Justify it how ever you want. According to you I must be a direct descendant of Noah and I would put money against it.

That would support evolution.

Rut row, now what?

Feed them and they schit, everywhere and on everything, birds are the worst.

Just who shoveled said schit on said arc?

Hey, maybe this Noah dude invented the "poop deck"..?

How cool is that?

As usual the faithless show up to these threads to mock the beliefs of others when they choose not to believe instead convinced that from their little corner of experience they have got it figured. Who are the boneheads again?

Clearly, but it always amazes me, when Creationists make that argument, how they don't see that.

I looked it up, Jesus quoted or referred to Genesis 18 times in total in the gospels.

I don't know all of them but off the top of my head.....

The days of Noah quote
A reference to Abel, Adam's 2nd son
A reference to Sodom and Gomorrah
A reference to God creating mankind male and female......maybe our society needs to rethink that one.

Perhaps believers should do a study on this before they relegate Genesis to equality with Aesop.

Just the one's unsupported by good evidence.

A writer of a book had a character refer to another passage in the same book.

Circular reasoning. It proved nothing.

Bluefish if you read the title of the thread the op asked a question.

What did they feed the lions?
How did they breathe that high in the atmosphere?
How did they fit all of the animals in the boat, given the dimensions show that they couldn't fit?
2 elephants would need 365,000 lbs of food to survive 40 days.
Where did the water go?
How did animals end up on different continents?

I imagine Noah assigned his son he disliked the most to be " Chief Shidt Shoveler."


L.W.

Why didn't Noah go fishing?

He only had two worms.

If you can explain miraculous events......maybe they aren't!!!

I will address only the most foolish. The ark was at sea level.

Christians...our crazy neighbors who believe in fairy tales.

Sea level eh... great answer.....but wait just a minute.


At what elevation might sea level be if the earth was flooded and covered with water?

Did mt Everest shrink from being so wet?
Or sprout up after the flood?

Where did all the water come from?

Where did it go?

Did god make more water for this one event and then take it back to Walmart when he was done with it?

What? No reply? Glad I could straighten y'all out!

There was a story from Babilonia that had a man build a raft for a flood in which he put his family and their animals. I've heard it said that this story goes back to when the Mediteranian first broke through to the Black Sea which at that time was a lake.

People seem to have a problem with the thought that the Bible contains some allegory. I have no problem with that and do not think it would in any way make the Bible false. Allegory is used in religious teachings all the time. Jesus himself use a great deal of allegory.

Every ancient culture has a flood myth. This is world wide. So there is certainly some truth in the Biblical account. I think the ancients tailored what happened to their own belief system.

Most of the world counts years based on a character from a ‘fairy tale’
The largest religious group in the world is based on a ‘fairy tale’
Architecture changed because of a ‘fairy tale’
Art changed because of a ‘fairy tale’
Jewelry changed because of a 'fairy tale'
Music has been impacted more by a ‘fairy tale’ than perhaps any other thing
Wars have been waged over a ‘fairy tale’
Countries have been established because of a ‘fairy tale’
How many children were given names out of a ‘fairy tale’
The Best Selling book for decades is based on a ‘fairy tale’

The Bible points out that most times majorities are just wrong, occasionally they get it right though!

YMMV

Do any of y'all watch a show called Ancient Aliens? Lots of stuff shown on there from ancient days here on earth. The Sumerians made tablets telling of space ships and wars between aliens. Even the bible tells of space ships in a couple of places. Noah's grandfather, or maybe Great grand father was taken to space, where He told of the looking back at the earth, as a blue orb. HIs name was Enoch. His book never made it to the main bible. In the middle east there are old palaces dug up with lots of carvings of animials that were supposedly never in that part of the world. If people were coming from space, back then, it is possible that they could have had ways to take genetic materal from animals and then remake them. Before all of you Christians jump on me, According to the bible, God was from somewhere else, ie. outer space. There is lots of stuff that we do not know, nor understand. miles

lol...

The Epic of Gilgamesh is a Sumerian Flood Story, and no, it doesn't not go back to when the Med broke through to the Black Sea, it's about a flood on the Euphrates River.

You seriously need to give sea level some thought, my .com friend!

As to the water: Most geologists know if the earth was smoothed out like a basket ball the water would be about two miles deep. God's Word tells us He pushed down the low places (deep canyons in the ocean) and raised up the high places (continents).

You say "God was from somewhere else". You are correct. The Christian God is from eternity to eternity. He claims to span the stars with His hand. You believe in space aliens. From where did they come? Eventually you get to the Great Uncaused Cause.

The whole point that I was trying to make is that there is a lot of stuff from long ago that we do not know about, nor do we understand a lot of what we know. miles

Hebrews 13:7

It never happened. Not in the given historical timeframe, not ever. It's a morality tale.

Here's what we know. All over the world there are layers of water born sediments containing fossils. We know that fossils and oil and diamonds still have carbon 14 in them. The half-life of carbon 14 is about 5,000 years. That means the carbon 14 would be completely decade into nitrogen in a few thousand years. Just last week I heard a scientists who didn't believe that. So, he started with the idea the entire earth being carbon 14 and did his own calculations. He was amazed at the FACT.

What we do know is in order to produce a fossil the creature has to be buried quickly and away from scavengers. I read about a whale that died in about 100 feet of water. Scientists were delighted they would get to see it slowly covered by sediment. What they saw was in about ten years it was completely eaten by scavengers; even the bones. Notice no one points to buffalo bones becoming fossilized.

buffalo bone fossils for sale


I'd love to see where you read it took ocean critters 10 years to break down a whale carcass.

You got some things right my Christian friend.

The earth likely was covered with water, only thing is, it was 4 billion years ago, way, way, biggely way before noah was on this planet.

I also find it interesting that you accept and cite geology on one hand, and yet promote a fable on the other. I will study sea level, you can work on logic and deductive reasoning.

WOW, just that, nothing more.

Nitrogen present in diamonds and oil can be converted to C14 by particles emitted by radioactive elements in the Earth's crust. C14 decays into C12 not nitrogen.

Citation needed. Who is this scientist, what are his qualifications and what did he not believe? If the entire earth was C14 it would likely be a ball of plasma from the heat produced by the radioactive decay. He was amazed at what fact? This is incoherent.

By the way, as I have pointed out to you in the past, after the great slaughter of the American bison some people made a living by gathering the bones to be ground into fertilizer. As you pointed out yourself; rapid burial is needed to produce fossils. Nothing in your post has anything to do with Noah.