I'll start over, I won't lead off with the choir this time.
Our minister spent a fair amount of time this morning on safely issues. A car was stolen from the church parking lot last Sunday. She also gave a code word to alert all of us to danger.
I asked on my way out if I should bring my handgun with me. She quickly said yes.
Many churches have security or safety teams of church members who volunteer to provide security during Sunday services. Considering the previous attacks at churches around the country I think it's a great idea. Training is a must. Sad times we live in.
That's a given. Lots of good HP's to choose from in the .357 Mag. Even something as simple as the Remington green and white box 158gr HP's works well for your application, but you might want to consider stepping at least into the 20th century with your carry choice.
Single action revolver are pretty dated technology for this purpose.
Out of your mentioned options Id say the Shield is the best bet. Get some good hollow points....I used 147gr Federal HST when I used my Shield, those shot the best for me out of that gun. Most importantly put in alot of time and rounds shooting it, make sure to include drawing it from whatever holster you plan on using, while dressed similar to how you will be dressed for church.....shirt tucked/untucked etc.
Shooting a handgun is a perishable skill. If your gonna carry it. Be proficent with it. Shoot it once or twice every other week or more if you can. You live out in the willy whacks, should not be a problem to set Ya self up a decent range from 3 yds to 25 yards.
Like being able to hit a grapefruit to small cantaloupe size target at 15 yds at least with all the rds in a mag.
You're going to be a little undergunned with a single action .22 rimfire. My daily carry piece is a Polish P-64 9X18 with Hornady 100 grain hollowpoint handloads. It's 6+1 with one spare magazine, and if I've got my pants on, it's in a Remora IWB holster. If I still went to church that carry routine wouldn't change. From a seated position in the pews, especially if you wear a suit or another cover garment of some type, you might want to consider a shoulder rig for quicker access without having to stand up or draw attention to yourself by making any quick movements while drawing. The video of the recent church shooting seems to show at least one defender getting killed while attempting to draw his weapon. Jerry
Popeye squirt gun. You know what to do, it loads from the rear. haha
LOL!!!!!
Leave the old dude alone man.
They already got enough issue,s having a woman pastor. Without adding popeye into the equation . Lol!!!! She should be carrying also. Since she has the most commanding veiw of the place.
Biggest thing I would worry about is a buncha people packing heat from here on out and not knowing if anyone is proficent and can hit schitt other than the other church attendee,s.
Idea.....
Church heat packers regularly scheduled practice sessions.......... And someone who has a concept/eye of security in a building. Takes all the "heat packers" and you all assign areas you always sit in and practice DRY FIRE in the church itself.
Features: Made from a Brand New NKJV Bible Looks exactly like a normal bible Fits revolvers 6.6" in length and 4.8" in height or less Access Cutouts around grip for fast, easy removal of gun
Guaranteed to fit the following revolvers with standard grips and sights: Smith and Wesson: All j-frame revolvers with 2.125" barrels or less Taurus: Model 85, CIA 650 & 850, 605 (iron sight versions), 380, 605, 905 Ruger: All LCR models. (note: will not fit Ruger SP101) Any other revolvers 6.6" (L) x 4.8" (W) or less
A finely-crafted real Bible book storage safe. Precision-cut to fit snubnosed revolvers with 2.125" barrels or less. Made in Chattanooga, TN. Designed to be a solution to the common gun storage dilemma: You need fast access to your firearm, but want a better place for it rather than the bottom of a drawer or under a mattress. These book safes allow for storage of firearms hidden in plain sight, giving you quick access to your gun anywhere.
Have a question before ordering? Feel free to call our customer support hotline at 801-201-5486.
An Iowa carry permit still allows for the concealed or open carrying of handguns, rifles and shotguns, excluding those classified by Iowa law as offensive weapons (federal NFA or Class 3). An Iowa carry permit also allows the concealed carrying of other non-firearm dangerous weapons such as knives with blades in excess of five inches, switchblade knives, TASERs/stun guns or any other dangerous weapon.
So if you wanted to stick on of these in the gym bag under the hymnal, you could:
Our church has uniformed officers on the premises whenever the church is open and plainclothes in the congregation during services. The possibility of collateral damage from untrained folks getting involved in any shooting situation that may arise is something many including myself are not comfortable with. Dealing with a shooter in church is best left to professionals familiar/trained to deal with threats like this kind of scenario may present.
Our church has uniformed officers on the premises whenever the church is open and plainclothes in the congregation during services. The possibility of collateral damage from untrained folks getting involved in any shooting situation that may arise is something many including myself are not comfortable with. Dealing with a shooter in church is best left to professionals familiar/trained to deal with threats like this kind of scenario may present.
Many in cluding myself are not comfortable leaving my protection to others. I am first and foremost responsible for the safety of my family as well as myslf.
Bible Book Safe w/ 8oz Hidden Flask - Genuine Bible with Real Pages - Secret Hollow Diversion Storage Stash -
Features:
Made from a Genuine, FULL SIZE, Hardback Bible, not a small, fake, softcover one like the rest! Hides an included 8oz stainless steel flask Uncut, readable pages in the front, from Genesis to Exodus 1 Looks and feels just a normal bible
Accept no imitations! This is a New, REAL, Full Size, Hardcover NKJV Version Holy Bible, precision-cut in Chattanooga, TN to hide an included 8oz stainless steel flask. The cutout pages are unglued, and it is indistinguishable from an actual bible when the cover is closed, or when flipping through the uncut pages.
Flask info & tips: The included flask is a Gifts Infinity brand 8oz flask; it is the only brand guaranteed to fit in this book safe.
I'll start over, I won't lead off with the choir this time.
Our minister spent a fair amount of time this morning on safely issues. A car was stolen from the church parking lot last Sunday. She also gave a code word to alert all of us to danger.
I asked on my way out if I should bring my handgun with me. She quickly said yes.
Any thoughts on the subject?
"It's a shame for a woman to speak in the church." - 1 Corinthians 14:35
At the church I go to, we have an entrance, a vestibule, then another threshold. This second threshold used to be old outside wall of the church.
We have a sound board, lighting controls, a small desk area, just inside that wall. it sits 90degrees to the flow of people walking in. We had an old window that was there and now it’s gone. So it like a reach thru there.
Anyone coming in after services start, sound man can see them all the way out to the parking lot.
Wonder if you could have an usher’s table that sits like that, where your designate person could use his peripheral vision to keep watch on late comers and body language?
Even with a CWP, in SC it illegal to carry in a church unless you have permission from the pastor or church board. My church has a security team that is headed by a Deputy US Marshal
If the pastor is smart, a church will not only allow armed people in the congregation but there will also be an organized self defense mechanism in place. Armed people need to be seating in strategic places and have a coordinated plan to identify and deal with a potential attacker.
Bible Book Safe w/ 8oz Hidden Flask - Genuine Bible with Real Pages - Secret Hollow Diversion Storage Stash -
Features:
Made from a Genuine, FULL SIZE, Hardback Bible, not a small, fake, softcover one like the rest! Hides an included 8oz stainless steel flask Uncut, readable pages in the front, from Genesis to Exodus 1 Looks and feels just a normal bible
Accept no imitations! This is a New, REAL, Full Size, Hardcover NKJV Version Holy Bible, precision-cut in Chattanooga, TN to hide an included 8oz stainless steel flask. The cutout pages are unglued, and it is indistinguishable from an actual bible when the cover is closed, or when flipping through the uncut pages.
Flask info & tips: The included flask is a Gifts Infinity brand 8oz flask; it is the only brand guaranteed to fit in this book safe.
Least they left the maps in, that keeps me from going absolute bonkers from boredom in church.
Even with a CWP, in SC it illegal to carry in a church unless you have permission from the pastor or church board. My church has a security team that is headed by a Deputy US Marshal
In my Baptist church, the our deacons run the show.
Pastor AINT going to tell anyone jack chit, all he gets paid to do is to stand there and proclaim the Gospel. He is not the ex-officio of anything except the pulpit.
We gave him the codes to the burglar alarm but he doesn’t have a key to the thermostat cover.
If the pastor is smart, a church will not only allow armed people in the congregation but there will also be an organized self defense mechanism in place. Armed people need to be seating in strategic places and have a coordinated plan to identify and deal with a potential attacker.
I'll start over, I won't lead off with the choir this time.
Our minister spent a fair amount of time this morning on safely issues. A car was stolen from the church parking lot last Sunday. She also gave a code word to alert all of us to danger.
I asked on my way out if I should bring my handgun with me. She quickly said yes.
Any thoughts on the subject?
"It's a shame for a woman to speak in the church." - 1 Corinthians 14:35
She happens to be right on this point, though.
1 Timothy 2:12 | But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
There’s your answer. But you also need proficiency that comes from serious, continual training.
I believe in concealed carry everywhere. Church isn’t just part of everywhere, it’s also traditionally seen as a soft target filled with sheep ready for slaughter. That sentiment can eventually shift if enough of these animals are head shot by church members, but for now churches are mostly perceived as gun free zones even if they’re not.
Concealment isn’t tough if you’re someone who dresses up with a sports coat. I’m not. But I always have enough shirt to cover my waist. The bigger problem is keeping the huggers and touchers at bay. They’re more prevalent in certain denominations, but a consistent PITA if you’re trying to carry in a professional manner..........meaning your pistol is your secret and not public knowledge. Security teams are becoming more common, so depending on church politics/politics and what’s been announced to the congression, your secret may be out of the bag.
A full sized pistol with real sights and a manageable trigger are important (Mr. Wilson in TX drove that home for the “statistically” guys), because bringing a carbine every Sunday morning might cause the old ladies to start gossiping. BUT if I was in charge of the sound and lighting booth somewhere at the rear of the church and overlooking everything, I’d absolutely work out a means of having a carbine tucked in there with me. There’s no such thing as being over gunned in a fight. Just sensitive public feelings based on ignorance. Just my dos pesos.....
Richard, this is how I go armed in church most of the time. When I'm not wearing this, my pistol is on my belt, and I'm wearing a vest or coat to conceal it. I used to pack a 380 in my pants pocket, but the reality of the situation is that it takes too much effort to get to a pocket pistol when you're sitting down.
When is the last time you practiced with this firearm?
When is the last time you fired ANY firearm?
Always carry daily, have for close to 30 years. I was one day out of the Luby's massacre back around October of '91. Had lunch there the day before. Two people I had lunch with there were shot the next day. One was shot twice and recovered, one was killed. Have carried ever since. Typically avoid any venue where I cannot legally carry.
Only had to display my weapon 4 times during all that time in regard to two-legged varmints.
Dispatch hoglets quite often!
Anywho, my range is 15 minutes from my house. Have not always done so, but these days, I practice at least weekly, and sometimes more.
Usually at least 100 rounds each per session with the two 1911's and the Sig P365.
Just fer schitz n giggles......
Browning Black label, 380 ACP
The Sig P365 is my daily carry. Switched to this from the Glock 43. Twelve friends in the mag, one in the pipe and a 16 round mag on my belt.
Glock 43 w/ laser
RIA 1911, 230 gr. FMJ
8, controlled: top
+/- 16, as fast as practical: botto
Sig Emperor Scorpion, 1911, 45 ACP, 230 gr. FMJ
and a few with the RIA Tach FS in 10 MM, 200 Gr. XTP's
Last year at the 24hour campfire hog-hunt in south Texas, I got smoked so bad at the bowling pin shoot, I decided I needed mucho mas practice. I instinctively shoot left handed, but am right eye dominant so having swithched hands, I've had to learn all over.
So, if you are a church member, who chooses to carry in church and decide to shoot someone in the church who starts shooting folks, -- you are not liable? Is the church gonna cover you, and any legal suits that may come??
So, if you are a church member, who chooses to carry in church and decide to shoot someone in the church who starts shooting folks, -- you are not liable? Is the church gonna cover you, and any legal suits that may come??
So, if you are a church member, who chooses to carry in church and decide to shoot someone in the church who starts shooting folks, -- you are not liable? Is the church gonna cover you, and any legal suits that may come??
Do you really think anyone is going to sue Jack Wilson?
If I have my clothes on, I have my gun on. I carry a full size 9mm, in an OWB holster. That includes when I'm at church. I also carry a snub nose 38 Special as my BUG. I have no idea how many people carry there. They have to have 5 services to get everyone in, but the sanctuary is limited to 600 people. They don't have a clue about security. They have a local police officer that drives a motorcycle and gives tickets as head of security. Apparently he doesn't believe in carrying a gun at church. So chances are if there's a problem it won't be outside where it should be caught.
I'll start over, I won't lead off with the choir this time.
Our minister spent a fair amount of time this morning on safely issues. A car was stolen from the church parking lot last Sunday. She also gave a code word to alert all of us to danger.
I asked on my way out if I should bring my handgun with me. She quickly said yes.
Any thoughts on the subject?
"It's a shame for a woman to speak in the church." - 1 Corinthians 14:35
She happens to be right on this point, though.
1 Timothy 2:12 | But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
He’s too blind to see that in the Bible guys.... It’s no use. “The blind lead the blind.....”
So, if you are a church member, who chooses to carry in church and decide to shoot someone in the church who starts shooting folks, -- you are not liable? Is the church gonna cover you, and any legal suits that may come??
In Florida, if the police don't press charges against you, or they do and you are acquitted, one is barred from bringing suit against you in connection with the circumstances on which you were acquitted.
I'll start over, I won't lead off with the choir this time.
Our minister spent a fair amount of time this morning on safely issues. A car was stolen from the church parking lot last Sunday. She also gave a code word to alert all of us to danger.
I asked on my way out if I should bring my handgun with me. She quickly said yes.
Any thoughts on the subject?
Yes, and caveat I have not read any of the replies. Why the hell you would not have been doing this for years inside a soft target structure is beyond my way of thinking. I'd say I've been carrying in church for 20 years or so. Maybe more. And unless a church brings up a security team, they will never, hopefully, know wife and I are packing.
Shooting a handgun is a perishable skill. If your gonna carry it. Be proficent with it. Shoot it once or twice every other week or more if you can. You live out in the willy whacks, should not be a problem to set Ya self up a decent range from 3 yds to 25 yards.
Like being able to hit a grapefruit to small cantaloupe size target at 15 yds at least with all the rds in a mag.
Consistently.... And under duress/stress.....
All JMO.....
Best advice I've heard so far. About what I do . I try to practice weekly, but don't always. Wish I was more consistent about it.
I wonder now if a good reason not to attend church is all the gun packing folks who don't practice. Isn't there an old saying "practice what you preach" ?
I dont know if you guys mentioning an AR are serious or not but, my Dad (USMC 'Nam Combat Vet and very proficient shooter) was just tasked with setting up a security team at the church him and mom attend. Part of the set up is an AR with a high end EOtech optic. This rifle is stored in a locked closet with a metal door and frame in the unused locked choir loft. Dad or the one other guy (who is a former member of the 75th Ranger Regiment) who are designated to use it literally sit in the loft right next to the open closet during any service. They have a complete field of fire to anywhere in the sanctuary from this position. One armed usher is asked to sit along the center aisle in the back pew and the other known armed guys are asked to stagger themselves throughout the sanctuary. These members shoot at least with bi weekly at a members farm, several like dad are retired and shoot much more often then that.
The armed members are great but we started out by reviewing the physical security of the building. Some changes that were made include that all doors except the main entrance are locked at all times. The main entrance glass outside doors are locked when service begins and an usher(concealed carrying) must let in any late comers. The inner vestibule doors leading to the sanctuary are also locked during services with another usher opening those for people.
I’l take my chances. I don’t want to be sitting next to a guy that thinks he’s John MacClane just because he has a 9.
If the OP thought he was John McClane he wouldn't be asking questions.
Mans probably been handling guns longer than you've been alive. He's considering expanding his horizons and is drawing upon a community of experts at his disposal. I trust he'll make the best decisions for his circumstances better than you could make them for him.
This is an important subject for me. I attend a church that has about 500 people for the two Sunday services. I am there early with a dozen volunteers and some staff. I am a greeter inside the foyer, and there are door people. I am usually the last person in for the first service and I leave after everyone is done coming into church for the second service. I am quite sure if there is a shooter coming in there they will come in late when all the people are there. That likely means I will see them first and have to respond. I have asked a pastor on the team that was a Milwaukee cop for 20 yrs. what is our security plan in case there is trouble . I told him I still dont carry , ,, yet. We did have a security guy that volunteered but he went back to Texas . Now, we have noone. I know we have people that carry, I know who some of them are. I also am sure many others carry, however , a shooter will see me first. As for me , I will have to stop him and likely be shot cause I am in the foyer. I am contemplating to start shooting my Ruger SR9E much more this spring and just start carrying. I dont like the idea of carrying . We are in a very low crime area and police are in our parking lot quite a bit. A young guy on the force comes to our church, , and stops in while on patrol sometimes but I think he has the hots for a few young women there more than anything. I am a bit upset that there is no security plan what so ever , not even a bottom to lock the doors and a bell to hide the kids and lock all doors.
I dont know if you guys mentioning an AR are serious or not but, my Dad (USMC 'Nam Combat Vet and very proficient shooter) was just tasked with setting up a security team at the church him and mom attend. Part of the set up is an AR with a high end EOtech optic. This rifle is stored in a locked closet with a metal door and frame in the unused locked choir loft. Dad or the one other guy (who is a former member of the 75th Ranger Regiment) who are designated to use it literally sit in the loft right next to the open closet during any service. They have a complete field of fire to anywhere in the sanctuary from this position. One armed usher is asked to sit along the center aisle in the back pew and the other known armed guys are asked to stagger themselves throughout the sanctuary. These members shoot at least with bi weekly at a members farm, several like dad are retired and shoot much more often then that.
The armed members are great but we started out by reviewing the physical security of the building. Some changes that were made include that all doors except the main entrance are locked at all times. The main entrance glass outside doors are locked when service begins and an usher(concealed carrying) must let in any late comers. The inner vestibule doors leading to the sanctuary are also locked during services with another usher opening those for people.
I remember, back in the late 1980s, speaking to a priest by the open door of his chambers (office?), and looking inside to see a Beretta 92 inside its open factory box sitting on a desk.
I’l take my chances. I don’t want to be sitting next to a guy that thinks he’s John MacClane just because he has a 9.
You are a poser who has never seen a clue. I train about 4 hours/week w/ a group that varies from RVN vets to recent retirees from the GWOT including some old broads. The beauty of the pistol is that, to a skilled practitioner, it is an easily carried equalizer that is available to most and effective in the hands of those that make the effort. Some do.
If you don't have a defensive arm, sell your clothes and get one.
I believe that is Christ said. Sell your cloak and buy a sword.
For the time period, that was the state of the art for personal defensive arms that can be easily carried on the person.
The Apostle Peter had a sword and used it to defend Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane, when the Jews came to arrest him. In an an attempt to cut off a man's head, it appears the intended victim ducked, just in time, to keep from having his head severed from his shoulders, and "only" had his ear cut off!.
I'll start over, I won't lead off with the choir this time.
Our minister spent a fair amount of time this morning on safely issues. A car was stolen from the church parking lot last Sunday. She also gave a code word to alert all of us to danger.
I asked on my way out if I should bring my handgun with me. She quickly said yes.
Any thoughts on the subject?
I go to a small one, about 100 show up every Sunday. At least 15 people there that I'm aware of carry, including me.
I’l take my chances. I don’t want to be sitting next to a guy that thinks he’s John MacClane just because he has a 9.
You are a poser who has never seen a clue. I train about 4 hours/week w/ a group that varies from RVN vets to recent retirees from the GWOT including some old broads. The beauty of the pistol is that, to a skilled practitioner, it is an easily carried equalizer that is available to most and effective in the hands of those that make the effort. Some do.
If you don't have a defensive arm, sell your clothes and get one.
I believe that is Christ said. Sell your cloak and buy a sword.
For the time period, that was the state of the art for personal defensive arms that can be easily carried on the person.
The Apostle Peter had a sword and used it to defend Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane, when the Jews came to arrest him. In an an attempt to cut off a man's head, it appears the intended victim ducked, just in time, to keep from having his head severed from his shoulders, and "only" had his ear cut off!.
If you don't have a defensive arm, sell your clothes and get one.
I believe that is Christ said. Sell your cloak and buy a sword.
For the time period, that was the state of the art for personal defensive arms that can be easily carried on the person.
The Apostle Peter had a sword and used it to defend Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane, when the Jews came to arrest him. In an an attempt to cut off a man's head, it appears the intended victim ducked, just in time, to keep from having his head severed from his shoulders, and "only" had his ear cut off!.
Naaa. We are talking about Peter, the amazing colossal apostle, the first Pope, the Rock upon which Jesus built his Church. Peter was aiming for that ear. So by extension, you need to be good enough with your carry weapon to take off just the ear, leaving the skull intact. So you all need to follow the example of Peter and get in your reps each week.
So Jesus built His church on Peter???? That’s a laugh...
Tom,
We can leave that for another thread. But Peters skill with a sword makes for a good excuse to buy more practice ammo and spend more time at the range.
Our church rarely sees 50 people. A lady divorced her schizoid husband who then started causing legal and criminal problems for family, then church members. Our pastor carries, we have a guy who stays in the hall area outside, and a couple in the church.
Security team? They would laugh, some retired military, some just hillbillies.
This all started before the big shootings, but has continued. Most days, there are at least 4 or 5 armed people there.
We may have folks that things under control, we have a meeting Tuesday night, it should be a good one. I need to get to bed, thanks all the meaningful posters.
I’l take my chances. I don’t want to be sitting next to a guy that thinks he’s John MacClane just because he has a 9.
You are a poser who has never seen a clue. I train about 4 hours/week w/ a group that varies from RVN vets to recent retirees from the GWOT including some old broads. The beauty of the pistol is that, to a skilled practitioner, it is an easily carried equalizer that is available to most and effective in the hands of those that make the effort. Some do.
Our church has uniformed officers on the premises whenever the church is open and plainclothes in the congregation during services. The possibility of collateral damage from untrained folks getting involved in any shooting situation that may arise is something many including myself are not comfortable with. Dealing with a shooter in church is best left to professionals familiar/trained to deal with threats like this kind of scenario may present.
Some say the defense of our nation, our state, our family, our way of life, ourselves and on and on and on is best left to "professionals". I say they're full of chit. With an active shooter on site downside is minimal. I'll take my chances backing up Granny Bluehair anytime over being unarmed.
Our church has uniformed officers on the premises whenever the church is open and plainclothes in the congregation during services. The possibility of collateral damage from untrained folks getting involved in any shooting situation that may arise is something many including myself are not comfortable with. Dealing with a shooter in church is best left to professionals familiar/trained to deal with threats like this kind of scenario may present.
Some say the defense of our nation, our state, our family, our way of life, ourselves and on and on and on is best left to "professionals". I say they're full of chit. With an active shooter on site downside is minimal. I'll take my chances backing up Granny Bluehair anytime over being unarmed.
I carry in church. I also evaluated my normal seat and decided that center aisle, 3 pews forward of the main entrance wasn't the best spot to sit. So I moved to an outside aisle, right in front of a large pillar. Solid cover behind me and
We also had our local police chief do a walk through of the building, he made several suggestions to make the building somewhat more secure. We also gave the cops a set of blueprints to our building, they put them into their computer system. Should a problem arise, they have some idea of the building layout.
We also had a breakfast meeting with our ushers and an officer gave a presentation on perpetrators and what to look for. We have also discussed other emergencies like a fire, a heart attack, or tornado to name a few.
We referred to it as emergency preparedness, not 'a church shooter' since the other stuff is more likely to occur.
I'll start over, I won't lead off with the choir this time.
Our minister spent a fair amount of time this morning on safely issues. A car was stolen from the church parking lot last Sunday. She also gave a code word to alert all of us to danger.
I asked on my way out if I should bring my handgun with me. She quickly said yes.
Any thoughts on the subject?
Yes, do so. I have done so since I got my first CHL. Used to pack pocket or ankle pistols. Went to a 1911 ltwt cdr in .45ACP some time back, in an IWB holster + 2 mags.
I assume you have a concealed carry permit or live where one is not needed. If not, jump through the hoops and get you CHL. Like, soonest.
Originally Posted by wabigoon
The two handguns I have are the Ruger Single Six, 22 long rifle, and a S&W Shield 9mm.
I'd rather someone else was at the rear with a 12 gauge pump.
Leave the Ruger at home, bring the S&W. I am dead-set against mandatory training requirements, but training is not a bad idea. Several different sorts of training, but one cost-effective way to get some quality hands-on gun time is IDPA or USPSA. Some say it is not training, but they are wrong(1). You may get into the gamey part of it, but be sure to use what you carry every once in a while to see how easy it is to draw & fire and suchlike with the gun you actually carry. At first, you'll be like, "WTH, way too much to learn and I have all the WRONG gear!!"
Originally Posted by wabigoon
This is the Shield, and holster. a couple of you folks are welcome join us, and sit behind me, try to sing on key, and not too loud. (small smile) https://i.imgur.com/Z2vFTMF.jpg
Don't take this the wrong way, but that holster is one manky nylon POS. You need to replace it with something a serious man would use.
Get a real rig: 1. Real gun belt, made for purpose. 2. Quality holster (IWB or OWB). 3. Quality mag carriers, total 1 or 2 capacity.
Hard to find the right gear in a gun shop, keeping quality leather or kydex is expensive to stock. There are a LOT of good gun rig makers nowadays. Here is the one thing you need to know: high quality custom carry gear usually only costs a bit more than barely-suitable mass produced gear. But custom takes longer to get delivered. Another thing: good and bad gear is made in leather and artificial materials (nylon, kydex, etc). I prefer leather, but kydex works great for many folks, too.
You can use your upcoming IDPA shoots to learn from fellow competitors what might work and then use that (or use all the same gear but switch to an IWB holster for carry out & about).
You could buy a quality rig right now if through El Paso Saddlery. I own plenty of their gear. Other makers of quality gear out there, but El Paso Saddley can do it all and get it to you in 4-8 weeks. epsaddlery.com
Call them during business hours after doing your homework on the website. 915-544-2233
Dress Belt https://epsaddlery.com/product/20-dress-belt/ (Follow fitment instructions) 1.5" wide, double thick belts will fit most all khaki & suit pant belt loops. 1.75" wide will fit most all blue jean belt lops. I run 1.5" and an IWB holster.
If you always wear blue jeans, even to church, may want to move to 1.75" wide Garrison Belt with lining (making it double thick) and specify 1.75" loops for holsters. Double-thickness belts use two pieces of leather, with grain orthogonal. Makes for a stiffer belt. https://epsaddlery.com/product/75-garrison-belt/
Border Boss IWB Holster https://epsaddlery.com/product/border-boss-holster/ A good copy of the Milt Sparks VM2 holster, the Holy Grail of IWB for heavy guns. 1.75" loops standard and will work for 1.5" wide belts, too.
Good luck.
(1) Did my time in Uncle Sam's pay, did plenty of live fire and other sorts of training. Against OPFOR, as OPFOR and all that jazz.
We are in the process of organizing a emergency response team. We will handle fires, weather, health and heaven forbid active shooters. We are learning there is a lot of things to consider. Hasbeen
I hope we can get younger men to do the job. Thanks all for the serious replies.
We have a meeting Tuesday night, I'll think we will spend some time on this topic.
I'm also thinking about talking to our county Sheriff about it, not asking them to guard out church, just thoughts on the topic.
Might even request a male pastor as the current one is all wrong according to the Bible. IF you actually believe the Bible.
Tom, I was raised in a Southern Baptist church, one grandfather a pastor, the other a deacon. My wife was a Methodist, not the modern day UMC kind, but the old fashioned kind. We've attended both churches during the past 50 years, mostly the Methodist, currently the Baptist. The Methodist church had a woman pastor, and I refused to go for several years because of that very reason. I am 100% certain she was a very good Christian person, and eventually I did go back to church where she was. Having said that, she was a poor leader, and that is part of what a good pastor should be..........leader of the flock.
Baptists don't have female pastors, and the church I attend is very much male dominated. I believe that there will be as many women in Heaven as there will be men, most likely more because women are usually more religious. I also believe that while the Bible tells us that a man should be the head of his household, I believe that it was not meant for a man to relegate a woman to second tier status. I believe that should apply in church as well. I believe a woman can pray for my soul just as well as man can, and I also believe that there are many places in the church where a woman can serve just as well as any man can. Having said that, I believe that just as a man is the head of his household, provided he is fit to be, I believe a man should also lead the church family.
That does not mean that a woman cannot be a church leader, or even a pastor, it just means that in an ideal situation, men should lead. As I age, I see things a lot more clearer than I once did, and in particular, religion and my relationship with God. I have my opinions, and they're probably not always right, but I also am beginning to realize that it's not always in my best interest to pass judgment on things that I have no business sticking my nose into. That would probably include a church that has a woman as pastor.
Tom, I was raised in a Southern Baptist church, one grandfather a pastor, the other a deacon. My wife was a Methodist, not the modern day UMC kind, but the old fashioned kind. We've attended both churches during the past 50 years, mostly the Methodist, currently the Baptist. The Methodist church had a woman pastor, and I refused to go for several years because of that very reason. I am 100% certain she was a very good Christian person, and eventually I did go back to church where she was. Having said that, she was a poor leader, and that is part of what a good pastor should be..........leader of the flock.
Baptists don't have female pastors, and the church I attend is very much male dominated. I believe that there will be as many women in Heaven as there will be men, most likely more because women are usually more religious. I also believe that while the Bible tells us that a man should be the head of his household, I believe that it was not meant for a man to relegate a woman to second tier status. I believe that should apply in church as well. I believe a woman can pray for my soul just as well as man can, and I also believe that there are many places in the church where a woman can serve just as well as any man can. Having said that, I believe that just as a man is the head of his household, provided he is fit to be, I believe a man should also lead the church family.
That does not mean that a woman cannot be a church leader, or even a pastor, it just means that in an ideal situation, men should lead. As I age, I see things a lot more clearer than I once did, and in particular, religion and my relationship with God. I have my opinions, and they're probably not always right, but I also am beginning to realize that it's not always in my best interest to pass judgment on things that I have no business sticking my nose into. That would probably include a church that has a woman as pastor.
So you disagree with the Word of God on this point?
Tom, I was raised in a Southern Baptist church, one grandfather a pastor, the other a deacon. My wife was a Methodist, not the modern day UMC kind, but the old fashioned kind. We've attended both churches during the past 50 years, mostly the Methodist, currently the Baptist. The Methodist church had a woman pastor, and I refused to go for several years because of that very reason. I am 100% certain she was a very good Christian person, and eventually I did go back to church where she was. Having said that, she was a poor leader, and that is part of what a good pastor should be..........leader of the flock.
Baptists don't have female pastors, and the church I attend is very much male dominated. I believe that there will be as many women in Heaven as there will be men, most likely more because women are usually more religious. I also believe that while the Bible tells us that a man should be the head of his household, I believe that it was not meant for a man to relegate a woman to second tier status. I believe that should apply in church as well. I believe a woman can pray for my soul just as well as man can, and I also believe that there are many places in the church where a woman can serve just as well as any man can. Having said that, I believe that just as a man is the head of his household, provided he is fit to be, I believe a man should also lead the church family.
That does not mean that a woman cannot be a church leader, or even a pastor, it just means that in an ideal situation, men should lead. As I age, I see things a lot more clearer than I once did, and in particular, religion and my relationship with God. I have my opinions, and they're probably not always right, but I also am beginning to realize that it's not always in my best interest to pass judgment on things that I have no business sticking my nose into. That would probably include a church that has a woman as pastor.
So you disagree with the Word of God on this point?
TRH...........you're twisting it around, just like you do about the Holocaust. What I'm saying it is that I have enough worry with keeping myself on course to worry about what someone does.
Without Pastor Missy, I strongly doubt if either the Presbyterian or our Methodist church would have the doors open.
I’ve heard some women that could flat out preach...! They were certainly capable of advancing the Gospel, that’s for flippin’ sure.
So the Word of God should be disregarded on this point?
laffin’ Nobody’s salvation depends upon whether or not they agree or disagree with the Apostle Paul on ‘this’ point. He also said that women shouldn’t wear gold or pearls or expensive clothes.
Without Pastor Missy, I strongly doubt if either the Presbyterian or our Methodist church would have the doors open.
I’ve heard some women that could flat out preach...! They were certainly capable of advancing the Gospel, that’s for flippin’ sure.
So the Word of God should be disregarded on this point?
laffin’ Nobody’s salvation depends upon whether or not they agree or disagree with the Apostle Paul on ‘this’ point. He also said that women shouldn’t wear gold or pearls or expensive clothes.
We can't have a meaningful discussion about that unless you provide citations like I and others have.
I'll start over, I won't lead off with the choir this time.
Our minister spent a fair amount of time this morning on safely issues. A car was stolen from the church parking lot last Sunday. She also gave a code word to alert all of us to danger.
I asked on my way out if I should bring my handgun with me. She quickly said yes.
Any thoughts on the subject?
Several local churches have parishioners that are legally carrying concealed. This at the request of the local partors.
I didn't twist your words. I asked for clarification. See the question mark? Not asserting anything. Asking.
The word of God is very plain..........men should be the head of their household and the head of their church. But, does that mean that women should have no role, or not even be allowed to open their mouths in church.........and there are churches that believe that.
I know what Paul said about women in the church, but I also know that some of the first supporters of Jesus were women. Mary Magdalene, Joanna, and Susanna all accompanied Jesus and helped in his early discipleship, and we know it was women who went to the tomb and discovered He had risen................so to dismiss the role women played is wrong.
My whole post was to simply say that I believe it's better for one to concentrate on taking care of themselves than worrying about what another person or another church does.
I didn't twist your words. I asked for clarification. See the question mark? Not asserting anything. Asking.
The word of God is very plain..........men should be the head of their household and the head of their church. But, does that mean that women should have no role, or not even be allowed to open their mouths in church.........and there are churches that believe that.
I know what Paul said about women in the church, but I also know that some of the first supporters of Jesus were women. Mary Magdalene, Joanna, and Susanna all accompanied Jesus and helped in his early discipleship, and we know it was women who went to the tomb and discovered He had risen................so to dismiss the role women played is wrong.
Where have I said any of that?? Of course women have a huge role to play. But not in leadership positions over men, or positions teaching men, or speaking during the Church service. You can disagree, but you'd be disagreeing with the Word of God. Own it.
Nobody’s salvation depends upon whether or not they agree or disagree with the Apostle Paul on ‘this’ point (whether or not women should be pastors). He also said that women shouldn’t wear gold or pearls or expensive clothes.
Originally Posted by The_Real_Hawkeye
We can't have a meaningful discussion about that unless you provide citations like I and others have.
You need a ‘citation’ on *that*...? laffin’ and smh
I didn't twist your words. I asked for clarification. See the question mark? Not asserting anything. Asking.
The word of God is very plain..........men should be the head of their household and the head of their church. But, does that mean that women should have no role, or not even be allowed to open their mouths in church.........and there are churches that believe that.
I know what Paul said about women in the church, but I also know that some of the first supporters of Jesus were women. Mary Magdalene, Joanna, and Susanna all accompanied Jesus and helped in his early discipleship, and we know it was women who went to the tomb and discovered He had risen................so to dismiss the role women played is wrong.
Where have I said any of that?? Of course women have a huge role to play. But not in leadership positions, or positions teaching men, or speaking during the Church service. You can disagree, but you'd be disagreeing with the Word of God. Own it.
I will not own it..................this is not the year 200. It's the year 2020.
Nobody’s salvation depends upon whether or not they agree or disagree with the Apostle Paul on ‘this’ point (whether or not women should be pastors). He also said that women shouldn’t wear gold or pearls or expensive clothes.
Originally Posted by The_Real_Hawkeye
We can't have a meaningful discussion about that unless you provide citations like I and others have.
You need a ‘citation’ on *that*...? laffin’ and smh
I and others have provided Biblical citations for what we asserted.
Houses of worship are expressly forbidden zones in Michigan; even printed on the back of the license. [bleep] yanks give it and then take it away w/ exemptions.
I’ve heard that there are folks who carry anyway, but can’t confirm that rumor.
I will not own it..................this is not the year 200. It's the year 2020.
God has changed his mind on this point, then? Just asking.
God hasn't changed, but we have advanced as a society. I know many women who know far more about the Bible than any man does. I do not believe they should sit meekly in church and let some idiot man, who's only qualification is that he is a man, to talk about things he doesn't know a hill of beans about.
Now, with all things being equal, and they seldom are, it is the role of man to be the leader................providing they are qualified. If a church does not have a qualified man to lead...............does that mean it should dissolve itself rather that let a qualified women lead?
I will not own it..................this is not the year 200. It's the year 2020.
God has changed his mind on this point, then? Just asking.
God hasn't changed, but we have advanced as a society. I know many women who know far more about the Bible than any man does. I do not believe they should sit meekly in church and let some idiot man, who's only qualification is that he is a man, to talk about things he doesn't know a hill of beans about.
Now, with all things being equal, and they seldom are, it is the role of man to be the leader................providing they are qualified. If a church does not have a qualified man to lead...............does that mean it should dissolve itself rather that let a qualified women lead?
I will not own it..................this is not the year 200. It's the year 2020.
God has changed his mind on this point, then? Just asking.
God hasn't changed, but we have advanced as a society. I know many women who know far more about the Bible than any man does. I do not believe they should sit meekly in church and let some idiot man, who's only qualification is that he is a man, to talk about things he doesn't know a hill of beans about.
Now, with all things being equal, and they seldom are, it is the role of man to be the leader................providing they are qualified. If a church does not have a qualified man to lead...............does that mean it should dissolve itself rather that let a qualified women lead?
Hey, if you can live with that, cool.
I can...............as long as you can live with denying the Holocaust...........lol.
Nobody’s salvation depends upon whether or not they agree or disagree with the Apostle Paul on ‘this’ point (whether or not women should be pastors). He also said that women shouldn’t wear gold or pearls or expensive clothes.
Originally Posted by The_Real_Hawkeye
We can't have a meaningful discussion about that unless you provide citations like I and others have.
You need a ‘citation’ on *that*...? laffin’ and smh
I and others have provided Biblical citations for what we asserted.
Dude, if you need a citation for verification that ‘Nobody’s salvation depends upon whether or not they agree or disagree with the Apostle Paul on whether or not women should be pastors’, then you are truly gaggin’ at gnats and swallowing camels...!
Dude, if you need a citation for verification that ‘Nobody’s salvation depends upon whether or not they agree or disagree with the Apostle Paul on whether or not women should be pastors’, then you are truly gaggin’ at gnats and swallowing camels...!
I was quite clear. I asked for a citation regarding your assertion about jewelry and such (not saying you're wrong, by the way). What's your problem with producing it? I, and others, produced a citation for the female clergy related statement.
I also want the women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, adorning themselves, NOT WITH ELABORATE HAIRSTYLES OR GOLD OR PEARLS OR EXPENSIVE CLOTHES, but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God. - Apostle Paul (1 Timothy 2:9-10).
Originally Posted by antlers
Nobody’s salvation depends upon whether or not they agree or disagree with the Apostle Paul on ‘this’ point. He also said that women shouldn’t wear gold or pearls or expensive clothes.
Originally Posted by The_Real_Hawkeye
We can't have a meaningful discussion about that unless you provide citations like I and others have.
Originally Posted by The_Real_Hawkeye
I asked for a citation regarding your assertion about jewelry and such
No, you didn’t specify *at all*. You weren’t “quite clear”, clearly.
I'd bet it would warp a Leftist's brain to know how many people in KY carry in church.
<chuckle> My wife teaches the "last class" for older women. She was totally surprised to learn that more than half of her class carries.
Our church got serious after the Sutherland Springs shooting. Instituted a "security team". Members selected by invitation. KSP adapted their school active shooter program to be church active shooter. Original six members did the KSP training event. Several things we implemented:
1) All doors, except front door, locked after greetings. "Greeter" at front door is a member of the security team. 2) Second security member goes down stairs with children for children's worship, and is in the hall when the treasurers come down to count the offering. 3) Two security members seated at front of sanctuary on each side near the two side entrances. 4) Sound man (second floor rear) has over watch of the front half of the church, plus responsibility for comms, if needed.
As noted above, need to practice. Quarterly live fire practice for the team will start in the next month or so. Wireless video cameras on order to be deployed in the next few weeks as well.
Apart from the active shooter aspect, the security team has also taken a more holistic view of safety and secuirty: > Traffic control in the parking lot, especially during VBS. Multiple positive comments from parents appreciating the traffic control, and having adults patrolling the parking area while children are outside. > AED procured, mounted and training provided. > Fire code inspection by fire marshal, and improvements made, such as "You are here, and here is how you get out" signage posted throughout the buildings. > Medical jump bag procured and members with medical training identified. > Doors for class rooms changed to swing "in" so they can be barricaded, if necessary.
The fact of the matter is the world around us is changing. As members of the Body of Christ, we need to adapt accordingly. There are multiple scripture references supporting defense of self and others. We would be remiss not to take the necessary steps to ensure the safety of our church members.
Antlers, now that you understand what should have been clear to you from context, let's see the citation. Not that it doesn't exist, but there might be something about it that distinguishes it from the female clergy question. Let's have a discussion.
When Paul said women shouldn't speak in church, he was talking about something we don't have today. Most women weren't educated and couldn't read in Roman times so while someone was preaching or teaching, they were whispering to their husbands "what does he mean by that" or "what does that mean". This was disruptive. Also when Paul said women were to obey their husbands, the word obey in Greek should have been translated respect. Men need respect and women need love. This is what Paul meant hear. When talking about womens way of dressing, it was more about gaudiness and drawing attention than just dressing so as not to stand out from others. I had a preacher once who said if you are looking at someone from the rear, you should be able to tell if they are a man or woman. Simple common sense stuff, not extremes.
I will not own it..................this is not the year 200. It's the year 2020.
God has changed his mind on this point, then? Just asking.
God hasn't changed, but we have advanced as a society. I know many women who know far more about the Bible than any man does. I do not believe they should sit meekly in church and let some idiot man, who's only qualification is that he is a man, to talk about things he doesn't know a hill of beans about.
Now, with all things being equal, and they seldom are, it is the role of man to be the leader................providing they are qualified. If a church does not have a qualified man to lead...............does that mean it should dissolve itself rather that let a qualified women lead?
So what else did HE get wrong. What else do we have to change about His instruction since we have "advanced"? We have advanced as a society, or degenerated? Maybe we progressed, in technology and science but regressed in spirituality.
So, society changed but maybe men are still men and women are still women.
So what else did HE get wrong. What else do we have to change about His instruction since we have "advanced"? We have advanced as a society, or degenerated? Maybe we progressed, in technology and science but regressed in spirituality.
So, society changed but maybe men are still men and women are still women.
I feel it's my personal duty to be armed when I go to church, much, much too many young, old, blind and or inexperienced folk in the congregation, I don't ask or tell anyone, just do it.
I didn't twist your words. I asked for clarification. See the question mark? Not asserting anything. Asking.
The word of God is very plain..........men should be the head of their household and the head of their church. But, does that mean that women should have no role, or not even be allowed to open their mouths in church.........and there are churches that believe that.
I know what Paul said about women in the church, but I also know that some of the first supporters of Jesus were women. Mary Magdalene, Joanna, and Susanna all accompanied Jesus and helped in his early discipleship, and we know it was women who went to the tomb and discovered He had risen................so to dismiss the role women played is wrong.
Where have I said any of that?? Of course women have a huge role to play. But not in leadership positions over men, or positions teaching men, or speaking during the Church service. You can disagree, but you'd be disagreeing with the Word of God. Own it.
In many church's today, their would be no preacher if not for women. Not over a man, but in place of one because a male preacher is nonexistent.
Our church is part of a conference of small country churchs in Pa, and Md. There are I believe 7 churches, with 3 preachers. Can't hire anymore. Cumberland Md church, 20 miles away, ran an add. Assistant youth pastor, parsonage health insurance, $35k/yr to start. 50 applicants. None for country church's.
Women are stepping into the gap men are leaving, and picking up the load men aren't.
Don't really like it myself, and don't want a woman preacher in my church. My wife would hate it. She is a bigger chauvinist than me!
I'll start over, I won't lead off with the choir this time.
Our minister spent a fair amount of time this morning on safely issues. A car was stolen from the church parking lot last Sunday. She also gave a code word to alert all of us to danger.
I asked on my way out if I should bring my handgun with me. She quickly said yes.
In many church's today, their would be no preacher if not for women. Not over a man, but in place of one because a male preacher is nonexistent.
Our church is part of a conference of small country churchs in Pa, and Md. There are I believe 7 churches, with 3 preachers. Can't hire anymore. Cumberland Md church, 20 miles away, ran an add. Assistant youth pastor, parsonage health insurance, $35k/yr to start. 50 applicants. None for country church's.
Women are stepping into the gap men are leaving, and picking up the load men aren't.
Don't really like it myself, and don't want a woman preacher in my church. My wife would hate it. She is a bigger chauvinist than me!
You've hit the nail on the head. As church membership shrinks, and in particular in the small rural churches, it becomes harder to fill the pastor positions. We attended a Methodist church for a long time, which shared a preacher with another small church about 5-6 miles away. Neither church wanted to merge with the other, and the UMC conference wanted to force them to, so they would get whatever was left over........meaning pastor that nobody else wanted.
Not saying the pastors they sent were no good, as some were. It got so bad at the end, right before we left, that the only preacher willing to take both churches was a Baptist pastor, who agreed to become a Methodist. After a year, the two churches went their separate ways, and our church found a retired pastor to take over.
Most people who attend the large churches simply have no idea how difficult it is to fill the pulpit in the small churches. Money, or the lack of it, is often a big problem, and just keeping the doors open is the priority. As the older members die off, there are fewer and fewer younger people stepping in to fill the gap. Often times these churches have to find whoever is willing to be their pastor, instead of having a lot of choices available.
As you have said, in many of these churches, if not for the women, there would be no church. That's just how it is, something that apparently some on here don't understand.
I try to avoid going to church, other then community meetings, I just don't like doing business with that sort of business. The only organization that I've found more divisive then religion is politics. I would derive no comfort knowing that some of those people sitting in the pews had fire arms, with ammo!
I think many missed the point of church. It has nothing to do with a building or how many people attend. It has everything to do with the teaching of Christ and His ministry. But in modern days people tend to view church as someplace to go to make themselves feel better while the whole time overlooking the real reason. So because your church has few members and old at that and no new prospects tells me that they are not feeding people what people really need = The Gospel. These “pastors” get up there and throw a 20 minute spiel about how to be good and maybe say something about politics in the world today while totally blowing past the duty they are supposed to be doing. It’s no wonder we have women pastors.....who else is there? Paul clearly and specifically stated in the Bible Gods views on women in the pastoral position. Now we have people telling us that they believe the Bible through and through and totally skip over the part about women leadership in the church....you have to ask yourself??? Do they really believe? And the Bible answers that too....by their fruits you shall know them. = that is what’s in their heart. Sure you can have a leity women pray for you, if she is living right and filled with the Holy Ghost her prayers will be answered but if not.....well...guess. I’ve seen pictures posted of women wearing slacks (clothing which pertain to a man) And cut hair... Paul talks of that too. So with that I won’t tell you that the Methodist people are going to hell....there is plenty of other denominations that also fallow their own rules and regulations that are nowhere near Bible teachings... It’s too late for the world but what people need to do is wake up and realize the denomination won’t take them to heaven but a walk with Christ in their life is the only way. Get ready people......you are all about to find out which direction you will be going if you continue the way you are. ⬆️⬇️
Wabigoon, I hope you got a satisfactory response to your OP because I don't want to derail this. But seeing as there is a lot of comment, I wanted to put this up there for our Christian brothers. The feminization and homosexualization of Christianity is probably the biggest factor in the decline of Christianity.
I try to avoid going to church, other then community meetings, I just don't like doing business with that sort of business. The only organization that I've found more divisive then religion is politics. I would derive no comfort knowing that some of those people sitting in the pews had fire arms, with ammo!
I don't worry about that, with the thought of i'll be one of the first ones jumping up to help, hopefully the less experienced parishioners will stay seated and not think they have to engage.
Some modern day Pharisees care more about the rules than they care about the people for whom the rules were made.
And then there are some who care about both out of love for the Creator/Lawgiver.
I’d suggest that not caring about the rules is equally dangerous to not caring for whom the rules were made, as God’s rules are given for the benefit of those He loves.
Untrained old guy with a handgun in a room full of people. What could go wrong?
I bet the teachers who valiantly and futilely sacrificed their lives trying to save their student from a mentally ill mass murder at Sandy Hook would have wanted to have a 9mm at hand.
Some modern day Pharisees care more about the rules than they care about the people for whom the rules were made.
And then there are some who care about both out of love for the Creator/Lawgiver. I’d suggest that not caring about the rules is equally dangerous to not caring for whom the rules were made, as God’s rules are given for the benefit of those He loves.
Hmmm...Jesus clearly sees it differently than you do. One day, on the Sabbath, Jesus and His disciples were going through the grainfields, and as they made their way, His disciples began to pluck heads of grain. And the Pharisees were saying to Him, “why are they doing what is not lawful on the Sabbath?” Jesus reminded them that when David and his companions were hungry, they entered the Temple and ate the bread of the Presence, which wasn’t lawful for anyone but the priests to eat. And then Jesus reminded them that the Sabbath was made for man, ‘not’ man for the Sabbath. Another time a man with a shriveled hand was present where Jesus was, on the Sabbath. And the Pharisees were watching to see if Jesus would heal him on the Sabbath...since it was against the rules. And He asked them, “Which is lawful on the Sabbath: to do good or to do evil, to save life or to destroy it...?” But they wouldn’t answer Him. And He looked around at them with anger, grieved at their hardness of heart, and said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” He stretched it out, and his hand was restored. ‘That’ pissed off the Pharisees. They clearly weren’t doing ‘anything’ out of love for the Creator/Lawgiver ‘or’ those people for whom the rules were made. And Jesus Himself pointed that out to them.
Some modern day Pharisees care more about the rules than they care about the people for whom the rules were made.
And then there are some who care about both out of love for the Creator/Lawgiver.
I’d suggest that not caring about the rules is equally dangerous to not caring for whom the rules were made, as God’s rules are given for the benefit of those He loves.
Antlers, what Jesus condemned was meaningless legalism, not the upholding of definite standards.
No. He condemned placing more importance on ‘the rules’ than on the people for whom the rules are made. He condemned using God’s word to diminish someone that God loves. People are made in the spiritual image of God. People are the supreme object of God's creation. They are certainly more important than ‘the rules’.
I will say, we have some members with a zeal for religion.
Back to the armed in church, I hope none of us ever need it.
Amen; whether in church or not.
You haven’t said where you’ve fallen on this? You gonna carry?
You won’t get an answer on this. This was all just harmless trolling.
In a month he will start the same thread again under a different title and the milk lappers (the ones who think it’s serious) will rush into it like starving kittens.
Antlers, what Jesus condemned was meaningless legalism, not the upholding of definite standards.
No. He condemned placing more importance on ‘the rules’ than on the people for whom the rules are made. He condemned using God’s word to diminish someone that God loves. People are made in the spiritual image of God. People are the supreme object of God's creation. They are certainly more important than ‘the rules’.
Sounds like the antinomian heresy. If you disagree, what do you think is the difference?
Upholding this standard doesn’t in any way diminish anyone.
Tell that to Pastor Missy when she’s out of her pastoral position because of ‘this standard’. And tell that to wabigoon and the rest of his congregation when they’re out of their church because of ‘this standard’.
Upholding this standard doesn’t in any way diminish anyone.
Tell that to Pastor Missy when she’s out of her pastoral position because of ‘this standard’. And tell that to wabigoon and the rest of his congregation when they’re out of their church because of ‘this standard’.
The lack of a standard is what got them in this position to begin with!
Antlers, do you really believe that Christ’s condemnation of meaningless legalism includes gender role distinctions?
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is ‘no male and female’, *for you are all ‘one’ in Christ Jesus.* - Galatians 3:28
Upholding this standard doesn’t in any way diminish anyone.
Tell that to Pastor Missy when she’s out of her pastoral position because of ‘this standard’. And tell that to wabigoon and the rest of his congregation when they’re out of their church because of ‘this standard’.
The lack of a standard is what got them in this position to begin with!
Upholding this standard doesn’t in any way diminish anyone.
Tell that to Pastor Missy when she’s out of her pastoral position because of ‘this standard’. And tell that to wabigoon and the rest of his congregation when they’re out of their church because of ‘this standard’.
The lack of a standard is what got them in this position to begin with!
Really...! And ‘you’ know that how...?
Just like the Pharisees in Jesus’ day, modern day Pharisees have taken theology and they've twisted it to empower themselves to do the very opposite of what God commanded them to do. His command was "Love one another." By THIS, by the way you love others, THIS is how everybody's gonna know you're His follower. NOT by your theology, NOT by how you ‘keep the rules’, NOT by how you keep ‘the standards’, and NOT by how you enforce ‘the rules’ and enforce ‘the standards’...way you love others is gonna be *the* thing that communicates more than anything else that you're His follower.
Just like the Pharisees in Jesus’ day, modern day Pharisees have taken theology and they've twisted it to empower themselves to do the very opposite of what God commanded them to do. His command was "Love one another." By THIS, by the way you love others, THIS is how everybody's gonna know you're His follower. NOT by your theology, NOT by how you ‘keep the rules’, NOT by how you keep ‘the standards’, and NOT by how you enforce ‘the rules’ and enforce ‘the standards’...way you love others is gonna be *the* thing that communicates more than anything else that you're His follower.
I really wish you'd answer my questions.
How does your view differ from the heresy of antinomianism? (You can check the link to see what it is.)
For that matter, how does it differ from the Satanic precept "do as thou will"?
I do not even believe that you understand the meaning of the word "love".
Upholding this standard doesn’t in any way diminish anyone.
Tell that to Pastor Missy when she’s out of her pastoral position because of ‘this standard’. And tell that to wabigoon and the rest of his congregation when they’re out of their church because of ‘this standard’.
The lack of a standard is what got them in this position to begin with!
Really...! And ‘you’ know that how...?
Just like the Pharisees in Jesus’ day, modern day Pharisees have taken theology and they've twisted it to empower themselves to do the very opposite of what God commanded them to do. His command was "Love one another." By THIS, by the way you love others, THIS is how everybody's gonna know you're His follower. NOT by your theology, NOT by how you ‘keep the rules’, NOT by how you keep ‘the standards’, and NOT by how you enforce ‘the rules’ and enforce ‘the standards’...way you love others is gonna be *the* thing that communicates more than anything else that you're His follower.
Reads like that is a version of YOUR own personal new age “feel goodism horseshît doctrine”
Here's another one for you to ponder. Please enlighten us when you come to a conclusion.
Originally Posted by Matthew
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
Interesting thread, Every sunday morning when leaving the house to my yard I'm in my church no one else allowed. I don't need to go somewhere else where I might need to be armed to listen to someone lecture me on what to think ,what to do, what to value or what to believe. If you do, so be it. Leave me out of it and I'll take care of myself where ever, when ever. Have a nice day. MB
Hmmm...Jesus clearly sees it differently than you do. And He asked them, “Which is lawful on the Sabbath: to do good or to do evil, to save life or to destroy it...?” But they wouldn’t answer Him.
Please hear me. I’m suggesting that Christ’s teaching is a balance. Clearly the law was written for people but people were not created so that there could be a law. I agree.
What I said was that one can fall off balance in two directions; one by suggesting the law as an end-all-be-all, the other saying that the law matters not at all.
Christ doesn’t tell the Pharisees they’re wrong for being concerned about the Sabbath; He asks them “what is lawful...”
If the law didn’t matter at all, why would He ask that?
He did so to show that their self righteous “concern” was itself a violation of law. He wasn’t saying that the law is abolished.
One must be balanced between law and grace for without one the other will inevitably fall.
Reads like that is a version of YOUR own personal new age “feel goodism horseshît doctrine”
Jesus Himself said the entire Law and the Prophets (the entire Old Testament) can be summed up in two rules...love God, and demonstrate your love for God by your love for other people. And His entire ministry on earth (contained in the New Testament) can be summed up in those same two rules...love God, and demonstrate your love for God by your love for other people. It’s just the truth. I didn’t make it the truth. It just *is*. It’d still be the truth if I’d never even mentioned it.
One must be balanced between law and grace for without one the other will inevitably fall.
A lot of churches, and a lot of ‘Christians’, seem to have an uneasy relationship with grace...when it comes to extending it to others. The Pharisees had the Law, and they lived by it, to extremes. They practiced it to the detriment of others. They were graceless. And Jesus called em’ out on it.
One must be balanced between law and grace for without one the other will inevitably fall.
A lot of churches, and a lot of ‘Christians’, seem to have an uneasy relationship with grace...when it comes to extending it to others. The Pharisees had the Law, and they lived by it, to extremes. They practiced it to the detriment of others. They were graceless. And Jesus called em’ out on it.
Right; agreed, although I would say that’s a malady that infects all of humanity not just Christians.
So you do recognize that there are two ways to fall off the horse?
If there is no law and everything is ok, what’s the need for grace? Grace implies an offense that requires forgiveness does it not?
Or is grace merely libertarian minding of ones own business?
The presence of law requires that there be those who follow it as well as those who enforce it in order for it to actually be law.
Also law necessarily includes punishment, either by man or God.
Originally Posted by Romans 13:4
For the one in authority is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God's servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.
The presence of law requires that there be those who follow it as well as those who enforce it in order for it to actually be law.
Kinda... kinda not.
The beauty of the Gospel is that God has borne the penalty of our lawlessness upon Himself in the form of His Son.
The law keeping one does after he has received this gift is out of gratitude.
The reminding I do toward my brother is out of loving concern for his walk with our Lord. It’s God who enforces.
I consider attendance to worship necessary because I’m prone to rationalize all sorts of things and need faithful brothers & sisters to remind me when I’m off. Unlike Magnum Bob up above I have no qualms about who I’d be worshipping were I to keep company only with myself on the Lord’s Day.
Ps- I see by the reference you were getting at civil enforcement I get where you’re coming from now thanks
I feel it's my personal duty to be armed when I go to church, much, much too many young, old, blind and or inexperienced folk in the congregation, I don't ask or tell anyone, just do it.
One must be balanced between law and grace for without one the other will inevitably fall.
A lot of churches, and a lot of ‘Christians’, seem to have an uneasy relationship with grace...when it comes to extending it to others. The Pharisees had the Law, and they lived by it, to extremes. They practiced it to the detriment of others. They were graceless. And Jesus called em’ out on it.
Indeed he did. That's because they strained the gnat and swallowed the camel. In other words, they really didn't care about the morality underpinning the laws, but only cared about the details of it, i.e., they were legalistic, and ignored the spirit of the law. You would have us ignore both the letter and the spirit of the law.
You would have us ignore both the letter and the spirit of the law.
No. You *are* placing much importance on the letter of the law. And you *are* placing little (if any) importance on the spirit of the law. You *are* gaggin’ at gnats and swallowing camels. You’re doing just what the Pharisees did.
Tyrone - My initial post to efw on this thread came from Mark 2:23 through Mark 3:6; and my commentary to TRH did as well. ‘If’ you think Jesus’ views are antinomian, then you can lump my views in with His. The Moral Law is not the Civil Law of Old Testament Israel, nor is it the Ceremonial Law of worship for the ancient Jew, but it ‘is’ the unchanging requirement of supreme love for God, and an equal love for our neighbor as ourself. I subscribe, wholeheartedly, to ‘this’ Moral Law.
Next thing you know somebody is going to pull out a rattlesnake and go to dancing around with, and then drink some poison, all because the Bible said it was okay.
Just like the Pharisees in Jesus’ day, modern day Pharisees have taken theology and they've twisted it to empower themselves to do the very opposite of what God commanded them to do. His command was "Love one another”
One would think that those who proclaim to know Jesus would follow his two highest commandements.
Love thy God and thy neighbor. a tall order, hence why its said few will make it through the strait gate.
Next thing you know somebody is going to pull out a rattlesnake and go to dancing around with, and then drink some poison, all because the Bible said it was okay.
So you do recognize that there are two ways to fall off the horse?
If one loves God, and accepts His gift of grace through Jesus, and loves others as Jesus commanded us to, and extends grace to others as He extended it to us...there ain’t gonna be no fallin’ off the horse. Especially for not following a ‘rule’.
Originally Posted by efw
If there is no law and everything is ok, what’s the need for grace? Grace implies an offense that requires forgiveness does it not?
It depends on what you mean by ‘the law’. If you mean the Civil Law of Old Testament Israel...I don’t give a flip about that. I’m not ‘under’ that. If you mean the Ceremonial Law of worship for the ancient Jew...I don’t give a flip about that either. I’m not ‘under’ that. But if you mean the unchanging requirement of supreme love for God, and an equal love for our neighbor as ourself...then yes, I’m all in.
Antlers, an example of being a modern day Pharisee would be to object to a woman announcing to the parishioners before the service that the ladies auxiliary is meeting in room 2A after the service. That would be comparable to the Pharisees objecting to Jesus grabbing a piece of wheat and popping the seeds in his mouth while on a walk with his friends because it broke the rule against labor on the Sabbath. Jesus didn't mean by his condemnation of the Pharisees that the prohibition of physical labor on the Sabbath needn't be observed. Likewise, we are not to disregard the teaching that women shouldn't speak in the church, and that they certainly shouldn't be leaders of men in the church.
He made it ‘crystal’ clear that ultimately, the people for whom the Sabbath were made are infinitely ‘more’ important than the Sabbath itself. Likewise, Pastor Missy shouldn’t ultimately lose her position...nor should wabigoon’s congregation ultimately lose their church...because of the ‘rule’ that “women shouldn’t speak in the church, and that they certainly shouldn’t be leaders of men in church.”
I go to a larger church in Warren, Ohio. I am told we have some police and military people that are armed and in the church during services. I find that hard to believe when there are NO CARRYING stickers on all the doors. I told one of the older part-time pastors that the church is a free kill zone, he didn't like that.
well the Utube academy blowhard likes to give that impression,
but more importantly - Are you ready for anything anywhere and everywhere you go?
has 'ASP' made you that kind of person..That people would turn to in a church shooting?
I'm not a huge fan of the man. In fact, he has me shadow banned from comments on his videos. I subscribe only to see the videos of encounters with criminals.
Interesting thread, Every sunday morning when leaving the house to my yard I'm in my church no one else allowed. I don't need to go somewhere else where I might need to be armed to listen to someone lecture me on what to think ,what to do, what to value or what to believe. If you do, so be it. Leave me out of it and I'll take care of myself where ever, when ever. Have a nice day. MB
Good choice. No matter what you do,you'll be doing it wrong and surely be going to hell anyway, according to what I've learned here......
He made it ‘crystal’ clear that ultimately, the people for whom the Sabbath were made are infinitely ‘more’ important than the Sabbath itself. Likewise, Pastor Missy shouldn’t ultimately lose her position...nor should wabigoon’s congregation ultimately lose their church...because of the ‘rule’ that “women shouldn’t speak in the church, and that they certainly shouldn’t be leaders of men in church.”
That alleged "rule" wasn't even written by "Paul". The three Pastoral Epistles are know forgeries.
In Romans 16, and "Authentic Paul" letter, he demonstrates much different feeling towards women. I think Paul would of been pretty comfortable with the Pastor Missy.
I went to a Bible study last night too. I was the third man, there were 8 women. The session was lead by a woman. Two comments - the woman leading the session was in the model of those mentioned in Romans 16, who were mostly nuns. Because Romans 16 doesn't refer to the holy sacrifice of the mass.
Second - an 8:3 ratio doesn't bode well for the health of the Church.
I went to a Bible study last night too. I was the third man, there were 8 women. The session was lead by a woman. Two comments - the woman leading the session was in the model of those mentioned in Romans 16, who were mostly nuns. Because Romans 16 doesn't refer to the holy sacrifice of the mass.
Second - an 8:3 ratio doesn't bode well for the health of the Church.
Tyrone,
If they were nuns Romans was written much later then Christians claim.
That is the norm for small country churches, something that some of the people who attend large churches do not get. Many of the small churches would cease to exist if not for the women who attend.
I went to a Bible study last night too. I was the third man, there were 8 women. The session was lead by a woman. Two comments - the woman leading the session was in the model of those mentioned in Romans 16, who were mostly nuns. Because Romans 16 doesn't refer to the holy sacrifice of the mass.
Second - an 8:3 ratio doesn't bode well for the health of the Church.
Tyrone,
If they were nuns Romans was written much later then Christians claim.
I don't think they were formal nuns, belonging to orders like Carmelites, but they did take vows of chastity like nuns. They probably performed works of mercy and charity like modern nuns. It's probable that they even performed miracles. But Romans 16 doesn't say what they did, they could have simply been great at serving coffee to the men, although I believe their roles were greater than something that simple.
We do know that women did not receive the sacrament of Holy Orders like men and therefore were not comparable to modern deacons in the RCC.
I'll start over, I won't lead off with the choir this time.
Our minister spent a fair amount of time this morning on safely issues. A car was stolen from the church parking lot last Sunday. She also gave a code word to alert all of us to danger.
I asked on my way out if I should bring my handgun with me. She quickly said yes.
Any thoughts on the subject?
Well, yes, I carry in church. So does the pastor and his wife... as well as several others. Hope we never have to deal with the need for the pistols.
Further, there are at least two guys that .... given the nod from the pastor, will go and deal with disruptive and unruly folks in the pews. Designated heavies if you will. He looks out over the congregation and sees more than we in the pews do.
In all my years, I’ve only kicked out one group of three loud mouthed teenagers. It was easy to do. There were astonished when I confronted them and told them to sit quietly or leave. They chose to leave.
![[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]](https://i.postimg.cc/wjyXgBJt/A61-CB34-B-3696-45-FE-9801-FDCD05-E5-E014.jpg)
![[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]](https://i.postimg.cc/xTFvwmkD/9-D0-C8568-A1-FD-478-D-85-DB-C7-C216-F674-DA.jpg)
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/Z2vFTMF.jpg)
![[Linked Image from images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com]](https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81pfyxVaUWL._SL1500_.jpg)
![[Linked Image from images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com]](https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71Mip3HPNML._SL1500_.jpg)
![[Linked Image from images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com]](https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81nfzNwStOL._SL1500_.jpg)
![[Linked Image from images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com]](https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81ZKP%2BE5BCL._SL1500_.jpg)
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/uoCsRil.jpg)
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/PsyBxkF.jpg)
![[Linked Image from i38.photobucket.com]](https://s38.photobucket.com/user/glenn1221/media/pistolas/KC9A9091_zpss7hy4jvg.jpg.html)
![[Linked Image from i38.photobucket.com]](https://s38.photobucket.com/user/glenn1221/media/pistolas/Screen%20Shot%202019-07-07%20at%208.17.40%20AM_zpsolppziqw.png.html)
![[Linked Image from i38.photobucket.com]](https://s38.photobucket.com/user/glenn1221/media/pistolas/playtime.8_zpsdmr2t7ew.jpg.html)
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/br0ryVx.jpg)
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/pmrsbcE.png)
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/7JyEb3P.png)
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/G7EPFNa.jpg)
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/KtZ1Xdj.png)
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/TtVkkpA.png)
