Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire Archaeology proves the Bible is right (AGAIN)

The first ever extra-Biblical evidence for the existence of Bethlehem has been discovered. Bethlehem is the birthplace of Jesus.

Archaeologists in Jerusalem dig find old seal
Seal inscribed with 'Bethlehem' in ancient Hebrew
ASSOCIATED PRESS


JERUSALEM � Israeli archaeologists have discovered a 2,700-year-old seal that bears the inscription "Bethlehem," the Israel Antiquities Authority announced Wednesday, in what experts believe to be the oldest artifact with the name of Jesus' traditional birthplace.

The tiny clay seal's existence and age provide vivid evidence that Bethlehem was not just the name of a fabled biblical town, but also a bustling place of trade linked to the nearby city of Jerusalem, archaeologists said.

Eli Shukron, the authority's director of excavations, said the find was significant because it is the first time the name "Bethlehem" appears outside of a biblical text from that period.

Shukron said the seal, 1.5 centimeters (0.59 inches) in diameter, dates back to the period of the first biblical Jewish Temple, between the eighth and seventh century B.C., at a time when Jewish kings reigned over the ancient kingdom of Judah and 700 years before Jesus was born.

The seal was written in ancient Hebrew script from the same time. Pottery found nearby also dated back to the same period, he said.

Shmuel Achituv, an expert in ancient scripts at Israel's Ben-Gurion University who did not participate in the dig, said the discovery was the oldest reference to Bethlehem ever found outside of the Bible. Apart from the seal, the other mentions of Bethlehem, Achituv said, "are only in the Bible."

The stamp, also known as "fiscal bulla," was likely used to seal an administrative tax document, sent from Bethlehem to Jerusalem, the seat of Jewish power at the time.

It was found as archaeologists sifted through mounds of dirt they had dug up in an excavation outside Jerusalem's Old City walls.

Shukron said the first line most likely read "Beshava'at" � or "in the seventh" � most likely the year of the reign of a king. The second line, he said, has the crumbling letters of the word "Bethlehem." The third line carried one letter, a "ch" which Shukron said was the last letter of the Hebrew work for king, "melech."

Hebrew words often do not have vowels, which are understood from the context, making several interpretations of the same word plausible. Some of the letters are crumbled, or were wiped away. Three experts interviewed by the AP, one involved in the text and two independents, concurred the seal says Bethlehem.

There are only some 40 other existing seals of this kind from the first Jewish Temple period, said Achituv, making this a significant find, both because such seals are rare, and because this is the first to mention Bethlehem.

The dig itself has raised controversy.

It is being underwritten by an extreme-right wing Jewish organization that seeks to populate the crowded Palestinian neighborhood of Silwan with Jewish settlers, arguing that they have ancient links to the area. The dig is being undertaken in a national park in the area of Silwan, known to Jews as "the City of David."

Shukron said the seal was found some months ago, but they needed time to confirm the identity of the artifact.

I never knew the existence of Bethlehem was disputed.

The over-all point is that the accuracy of the Bible has long been disputed by "scholars" who don't want to believe any of it, but every arch�logical find that I'm aware of has confirmed its accuracy in one detail after another.

Oh, those cussed inconvenient facts.

On the other hand, have you seen this Foxnews article about someone 'proving' the exact day that Jesus was crucified? CRUCIFIXION They've tried to date it using a couple earthquakes in the area and other info. However, they make this statement: "All four gospels say the crucifixion occurred on a Friday." That's totally false. NONE of the gospels say that. They're inferring that because the next day was a Sabbath but John knocks out the idea that the Sabbath was on Saturday when he called it a Special Sabbath. That's different. During the feasts, the priests would often declare a Special Sabbath for the occasion that could be on any day of the week. When they did that, there would be 2 Sabbaths that week.

Joh 19:31 Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath

Yes, facts can dispel a lot lot of misinformation, but be sure your 'facts' are really facts.

First they need to prove that Jesus was a real person.

Its like finding proof of Japan and saying that Godzilla is real.

Neither did I.

I know I saw it on a map.

I wasn't aware the existence of Bethlehem was ever in question.

I don't think the books of the Bible have ever been in dispute except maybe by an idiot. After all, the books were written by humans. We aren�t sure of whom the original humans were who wrote the books but we are sure they were humans.

Nor is there any doubt that a "Jesus" did in fact live and probably was crucified. Nor is there any doubt that the Middle East exists or the Roman Empire existed, or that the ancient cities, towns, or villages existed in ancient Palestine.

It�s the word of man that is disguised as the Word of some God that is in doubt.

There's a virtual encyclop�dia of Biblical and anti-Biblical facts that most anti-Christians and "Christians" are unaware of.

Bible proves archeology not the other way around.

There was no extra-biblical evidence for the existence of King David until the 1990's, either. Now we have it.

The fact that a seal bearing the word "Bethlehem" has been found is interesting, but it does not prove that "The bible is right".

If your statement were true, then you could also say that when the geographic names in old legends match known places, then the legends are proved to be authentic historical accounts.

You will have to try better!

No, belief in the authenticity and truth of the Biblical message -- God's special revelation to man --is not imparted through argument, though it may lay the ground work for one's heart to be opened and receptive to the Holy Spirit later.

All religions are man-made even a Biblical based religion, such as Christianity. Religion is man's attempt to understand that which is beyond man's comprehension.

I fixed it for you. 8)

As you say "belief ... is not imparted through arguments", particularly if these arguments do not hold water.

The argument raised by Plinker and many other of the same type, do not move me one way or the other, but they tend to offend faith and intelligence.

I believe in God as much as I can, but false proofs make me feel sorry for those who develop them. I felt that very strongly when I read Descartes's "M�ditations philosophiques" : the famed logician, pretends that he has found the way to demonstrate the existence of God and all he succeeds in doing is to give the feeling that he is trying to fool you or worse still that he fooled himself.

Religion is man's search for God. Christianity is God's search for man.
See John 3:17.

I s'pose that only in Heaven will I eventually understand how so many "intelligent" folks
� will not accept God as He has revealed Himself and made His wishes so clear in so many obvious, supremely logical ways
but
� will so easily (even eagerly!) fall for so many kinds of palpable nonsense � cults, paganism, satanism, astrology, atheism, humanism, superstitions, socialism, etc � all of which are Swiss-cheesed with inanity, illogic, and contradictions.

Jesus believes in tinea versicolor... fungi need not bother with return beliefs.

Fungicide cometh.

As Ringman pointed out in another thread:

That's it.

yes, it is. i'd be satisfied if people were out there planting trees on an annual basis. but, they won't even do that.

I'm pretty sure that I am. Jesus was pretty sure that He was.

People who've known me have all seemed pretty sure that I am. People who've known Jesus � friends and enemies alike � all seemed pretty sure that He was.

If you haven't met me, how can you ever be sure that I am? Do you therefore demand some kind of proof?
What kind?
The author who was known as "Ellery Queen" was in reality two writers, neither of whom was Ellery Queen.
Maybe "Ken Howell" is an evil conspiracy that comprises who-knows-how-many people, all of whom are out to scam you.

On the other hand, a teaspoonful of paranoid skepticism is all that it takes to disbelieve what so many others are certain of.

Kinda like doubting Thomas no doubt. Cheers NC

so, if Jesus were to send word, by whatever means, that he's going to be late on his scheduled return, due to complications in schedules from the far side of the universe, what should we be doing in the interim?

i mean, if he's a thousand years late in his return, how should we best respond to that bit of additional knowledge?

We'd all do well to distinguish among the three discrete kinds of doubt in the New Testament �

� disbelief, skepticism � Zacharias (Luke 1:18) "And Zacharias said unto the angel, Whereby shall I know this? for I am an old man, and my wife well stricken in years." (emphasis added)

� receptive incredulity � Mary (Luke 1:34) "Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?" (emphasis added)

� a faithful disciple's demand for confirmation � Thomas (John 20:24�25, 27�29) "But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe [that this is the Jesus Whom I know]. �
"Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
"And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
"Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed."

so, given all the biblical rhetoric, what is the interpretation you derive from all of the above, that you're willing to share with us lowly commoners?

i mean, if God's return has been delayed due to unforeseen circumstances, for a period of time, say a thousand years, what should we be doing next, as a group??

in other words, just tell us the answer, we don't give a chit about how the answer was derived.

What makes you think God's return has been delayed? Besides, for any person their end time is just a few missing heartbeats away.

Christianity is a man-made religion just like all religions just that Christians can't see that. That's sad really.

Actually, it's your belief that "Christianity is a man-made religion just like all religions..." It's sad that you can't see that. As for God, apart from the prophesied end time, there is no absolute proof one way or the other, and in fact, there can be no absolute proof one way or the other. What you think you know about God is actually just what you believe you know. In actuality, you're in the same boat as all the rest of us. The only difference is that Christians accept that their view of God is by faith.

It's not sad at all.I am a Christian and very happy.Accepting Christ is the best thing I ever did.It brought more joy and stability to my life than any other decision I've ever made.I don't know a single Christian that wouldn't say the same thing.

Even if Christians are just deceived as you think,the only consequence of that deception is that they are trying to be better people.I fail to see how that can be sad.

WEll said Ken....agree 100%

In religion, you must "do" something to obtain favor, reward, Nirvana, etc. Therefore, religion relies on human effort and action. For example, Islam has the 12 pillars to perform.

In Christianity, there's nothing you or I can do to obtain salvation or favor or reward or heaven or merit. Nothing. Zero. Zip. Nada. No one is good enough. Not Mother Teresa, not me, not you, not anyone. No one merits God's favor. We can't buy it or earn it.

By this comparison, Christianity is not, therefore, a religion.

Tim,
You believe man has always had a sense that some kind of supreme being (let's call him God) exists. And you believe man has always tried to create means to connect with God. If we call those means "religions," then you're right that religions are man-made. But your conclusion, that all religions are man-made, doesn't follow.

Turn it around. Instead of man creating the means to connect with God, what if God wants a connection with man? And what if God has created the means for that connection?

What if God knows he is, as you've said, "that which is beyond man's comprehension"? What if, to remedy that, God has revealed some of himself to man? And what if, in his fullest self-revelation, he came to live as a man in the person of Jesus? (Jesus said in John 14:9, "He who has seen me has seen the Father.")

Then, isn't the sad thing that some men are unwilling to accept the God who has revealed himself in Jesus?

I just don't see how any thinking person can be as sure as you seem to be that all religions are man-made, every one of them. It seems to me that your view of God is a severely limited view.

Christians believe, as you do, that in ourselves we are incapable of knowing God -- but Christians don't stop there. The God who Christians worship is much larger than that. Christians go on to believe that he is unknowable without his gracious revelation of himself. "God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself" (2 Corinthians 5:19).

A god who is incapable of or unwilling to connect with his creation is a very small god.

Steve.

How can you support this affirmation?

Even with a limited knowledge of history, one can see that most historical figures, even some several thousand years older than Christ, have been documented in a much more complete and credible manner.

My personal experience was that my acceptance of God has made Religion and the Bible, and other religious writing irrelevant.

I don't understand how you can accept God and say the bible is irrelevant.
To me that would be like saying everything my wife has said since we were married is irrelevant.It wouldn't make either one of us very happy.

GW

Godzilla is from Kentucky, not Japan.

http://weeklyworldnews.com/headlines/47248/godzilla-fossil/

I feel very much the same.

I am part of the Christian culture, but it is my personal history and active research that led me to what I think and feel to be - for me at least - a meaningful understanding of God and its intentions. This understanding goes well beyond what was inculcated into me in my infancy and early adolescence.

Watch this video about the Exodus and the parting of the Red Sea and what they found at the bottom of the Red Sea.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaN2acVMGC8

AND EVEN THEN>>>

Would someone PLEASE, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE show me one single solitary thing OTHER THAN THE BIBLE ITSELF...
That proves that Jesus exisited at all?
Just one thing.

Or just explain the absence of extant reference to Jesus during his lifetime and the scarcity of non-Christian reference to him in the 1st century...

Christianity emerged organically from Hellenistic Judaism and draws on parallels between the character Jesus and those of Greek, Egyptian, and other gods, especially those figuring in myths about dying and rising deities.

Or Is it that your just going to say "well the bible says" again?
Self promotion isnt proof. Using the bible as a reference to PROVE the existance of Jesus isnt proof. What are you going to "prove" next? That caamels and kangaroos shared stalls on the ark?
That someplace in the worlds oceans there currently rests a 7 headed hydra?
Oh, that 2 people who shared identical DNR are responsible for the entire race of humanity since the dawn of time...whats that? about 4K years, right?
Bunch of brainwashed, arrogant, children.
A 8 year old retarded kid that wasnt brain washed from sunday school on would be able to punch holes in your theories.

Start by reading Josephus.

These threads on Christianity always bring to mind 1 thing. The Bible does NOT teach predestination. It teaches that every man has a free choice in whether to accept Christ or not. However, God is not bounded by time and He knows what that choice will be long before a person is even born. Note this scripture:

Romans 8:29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Those who God knows will respond, He calls and the Holy Spirit will reveal the truth of the Word. For the rest, the Bible is foolishness. It's important to know, though, that the call can come at any time, even on the deathbed. A man in his last hours is free to change his mind. If he does, God will call him, even if he has a foot in the grave.

I'm not sure what you mean by "proves." As Ken pointed out, there is no proof that he exists. Similarly, there is no proof that I exist, that Abe Lincoln existed, or that any historical person actually existed at all. Therefore we must rely on credible evidence.

There is an abundance of credible evidence that Jesus Christ existed as an historical person. He is mentioned by name in the writings of many contemporary historians, including Tacitus, Suetonis and Josephus as Plinker pointed out.

A good overview of this subject is in Chapter 5 of J. P. Moreland's "Scaling The Secular City." I have an extra copy of this book and will mail it to you if you PM your address to me.

Another great book on this subject that I have read is "The Historical Jesus - Ancient Evidence For The Life Of Christ" by Gary Habermas. Yet another book that I have heard is a good treatment of this subject but have not read is "Jesus and Christian Origins Outside the New Testament" by F. F. Bruce.

So, ringworm, just get into the literature. There is abundant evidence that Jesus Christ actually existed.

Start?
Please, dont be convinced that everyone is as brain dead as the sheep you are accoustomed to. I was raised a southern pres. I have read plenty.
If Josephus is the best you can come up with then you are proving my point for me.
Here is the paragraph that currently appears in The Antiquities of the Jews, written by Josephus around 95 C.E.:


If this is the strongest and earliest extra-biblical evidence for the historical Jesus, then the scholarship is on the shakiest grounds. That passage from Josephus has been shown conclusively to be a forgery, and even conservative scholars admit it has been tampered with. But even were it historical, it dates from more than six decades after the supposed death of Jesus.

In all of Josephus' voluminous writings, there is nothing about Jesus or Christianity anywhere outside the tiny paragraph cited so blithely by the Associated Press.

Historians have no evidence of a historic Jesus dating from the early first century, even though many contemporary writers documented the era in great detail. Philo of Alexandria, for example, wrote in depth about early first-century Palestine, naming other self-proclaimed messiahs, yet never once mentioning a man named Jesus. Many other contemporary writers covered that era, yet there is not a single mention of any existence, deeds, or words of a man named Jesus.

The Gospels are not history; they are religious propaganda, contradictory, exaggerated, and mythical.
But, you know what?
You guys will remained convinced that this super man comic book character was a real flesh and blood person. So be it. Just dont laugh at people who belive in Bigfoot with just as much data as you have.

Then if you're so smart, you know that one of us is wrong. Are you 100% confident in your choice? Or are you so insecure in your position that you have to stoop to name calling in a discussion among adults?

Back to the OP, the extra-biblical archaeological find is the first tangible evidence found to prove the existence of the birthplace of Jesus Christ. Archaeology has proven the Bible.

Happy Lord's day.

As I said, ringworm, the evidence is abundant. I'll be happy to help you get into the literature, so my offer stands.

Isn't it funny how so many people consider disbelief so "logical," based on their own cogitations and later literature while they dismiss as "fools" and "sheep" us who believe on faith in ancient and on-going revelation?

Hafta wonder why they so vociferouly demand proof that Jesus Christ exists and is the Son of God but never present evidence that He doesn't and isn't.

the "reasoning" of disbelief �


Harry was convinced that he didn't exist.

"Oh, yes, Harry!" his friend told him, "You're real, all right! I see you! All your friends see you. Everybody sees you."

"No, what you see is a ghost. I don't exist."

"Do ghosts bleed, Harry?"

"No, of course not! Don't be silly!"

"Give me your hand, Harry." His buddy takes Harry's hand, pricks a finger, squeezes a drop of blood out.

"See, Harry? Blood! You're wrong! You're not a ghost!"

"Yeah, guess I'm wrong. Ghosts do bleed."

I believe the opposite Rock Chuck. I believe that if you haven't been chosen, you won't, and can't come to God.

John 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

And that's the reason that when faced with so much clear evidence that God exists, Jesus was born, lived, and died on a cross, that they still reject Him.

Rom 3:10-18 as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; (11) THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD; (12) ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE." (13) "THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE, WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING," "THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS"; (14) "WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS"; (15) "THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD, (16) DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS, (17) AND THE PATH OF PEACE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN." (18) "THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES."

Unless God has chosen them, they will continue to do the same thing Adam did after he sinned. They will run away from God. I used to believe what you do, and argued that point with a lot of zeal! As I continued to study the scriptures, I realized I was wrong. I won't debate it though, because I know how angry people get when you tell them that they don't have a choice. Salvation is of the Lord.

Rom 9:8-16 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants. (9) For this is the word of promise: "AT THIS TIME I WILL COME, AND SARAH SHALL HAVE A SON." (10) And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; (11) for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, (12) it was said to her, "THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER." (13) Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED." (14) What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! (15) For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION." (16) So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

Rom 9:20-22 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? (21) Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? (22) What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?

Tough subject, but it demonstrates why men with a sound mind will scoff at the truth of God. Look at all the scoffers in this thread. Natural man hates God, and always will.

That must be very comfortable for the chosen ones, like you I presume.

As for the others, there is no hope ? They are left for ever in the darkness and the cold ?

What a lovely picture of your "God" (for this "God" of yours one could spare the high-case G...) you paint for us!!!...

It is, very much so.

Your exactly right Deersmeller. And that is a tough deal. But, He is the Creator. We are simply His subjects. Actually, all of us deserve death. Every last one of us are guilty sinners. Me, and you. He out of His mercy saves some.

Here are examples of yet more contemporary evidence. Great song too.

Kind or interesting that my daughter, born with Down's and a huge hole in her heard and diagnosed to live only a few weeks only received prayer in Jesus name is a healthy woman today with no Down's and no hole in her heart. Vancouver has the tissue samples that prove the Down's then tissue samples that show no Downs taken seven years later.

This is my proof.

Deersmeller, read Chapter 9 of the Book of Romans. Paul talks about why some are chosen, and why some aren't. Some of the hardest words in the Bible. Ones I didn't like, nor understand for a long time.

Your not in a good place. But, I don't know if you have been chosen or not. Only God knows that. Not some simple man like me. Take it up with Him and see what He has to say about it.

What a hopeless, loveless and compassion-less view of God and Christianity you paint.

I wonder where you worship, but it cannot be a happy place, even for the people who believe they are part of the chosen ones.

You make hateful people like the Jeremiah Wright of today or the Torquemada of yesteryear look sympathetic by comparison.

"The Bible does NOT teach predestination."

Yes, it does � but (as the original Greek term makes clear) not the philosophers' notion of predetermining every event. Biblical predestination is "setting the boundaries of," as if we live in a huge, fenced area and are free to roam at will anywhere in that area (and even to climb over the fence if we like the other side better).

Ephesians 1:5, 1:11 "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, � In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:" (emphasis added)

No Deersmeller,

"What a hopeless, loveless and compassion-less view of God and Christianity you paint."

That is the picture you paint, not I. I love the Lord, and He loves me. Though I do not deserve His love, nor His mercy.

What I stated to you is truth. What you do with truth is up to you, you are responsible for it. Not I. I cannot be held responsible for your denial of God and His existence. That's on you.

Deersmeller,

If you do not believe God, or believe in God, it shouldn't make one bit of difference what God thinks, or what His people think. For, if what you believe is correct, then I'm just a foolish dreamer.

However, if I'm right, and your wrong, that's a very different picture isn't it?

Good job high jacking this thread.

Yep!

Great post! Beautiful young woman! Prolly dosen't hurt anything living in Gods country!

I wonder how often the anti-Christians voluntarily disparage Christianity versus how often Christians voluntarily disparage anti-Christianity.

No non-biblical references to a person or even an entire civilization doesn't prove they didn't exist. The Bible makes over 40 references to the Hittite Empire, but before 1906 there was no non-biblical references to the Hittite Empire and skeptics claimed it was just a Biblical myth. That changed when Hugo Winckler dug up over 10,000 clay tablets documenting the long lost Hittite Empire.

In the mid 1800's skeptics advanced the theory that the NT was not written until centuries after the fact, that the stores were handed down orally, and thus, were unreliable. The enter life's work of some such skeptics was relegated to the level of poppy cock starting in 1895 when Bernard Pyne Grenfell and Arthur Surridge Hunt uncovered over 10,000 sheets of papyrus containing everything from bills, diaries, letters, and yes, fragments of many of the books of the NT. Fragment P52 is from the book of John and dates from 90 to 160 AD. Much of the papyrus is in the Chester Beatty collection, some of which is at the University of Michigan. There are leaves from all four books of the Gospel, Acts, Paul's Epistles, Hebrews, and many books of the OT.

Biblical skeptics have been proven wrong so many times that any further claim that something or someone didn't exist because of a lack of non-Biblical evidence has to be seen as baseless.



So you think that God, who could create people out of clay, wouldn't be able to create 2 people with different DNA. You're assuming your conclusion is true in order to arrive at your conclusion. Such circular logic is a common mistake among skeptics.

As for the OT stories that seem so silly, even a casual investigator would discover that ancient Hebrew didn't use vowels and didn't have a distinction between causative and permissive verbs. The claimed age of the Earth comes down to the interpretation of a single Hebrew word, and an equally valid interpretation allows for the Earth to be billions of years old, an idea that seemed ridicules before the 19th century. Don't feel too comfortable in your unbelief based on the iffy translation of ancient Hebrew.

We all accept or reject God on the bases of belief, not on evidence. Only the self-deluded think they know.

There is no proof that "The Jesus" "The Christ" ever existed. What there is, is proof that a Jesus existed. Jesus was common name among the Jews back then just like it is among the Hispanics today. So yes, a "Jesus" existed we just don't know for sure who he was. By the way, there is not much secular history about Jesus. To the Romans he did not matter.

As a Neo-Pagan/Deist I'm more inclined toward natural theology. Mythology is okay but I'm not going to make that the alpha and the omega.

Beautiful young Lady, I�m happy that everything worked out for whatever the reason.

Who says Deersmeller doesn't believe in a Deity? Just because one doesn't believe in the Biblical God doesn't mean one doesn't believe in a Deity.

Actually, history shows that Christians have much harder on other Christians than any anti-Christians have been on Christians.

Get into the literature, Tim. It makes clear that you are mistaken.

Oh I'm not mistaken, I read tons of literature and have listen to many college lectures on the subject. There is little secular proof of THE Jesus, mostly Bible literature.

Thank you my friend.

With good reason. Some professing Christians need their asses kicked.

The whole notion that God chooses some to be saved and some to burn is absurd.God has only predestined what he will do for thoes who choose Jesus.

Yes,God has the right do do anything he wishes with his creation but he has(predestined)made covenant with thoes who will accept his part of the covenant which is Jesus.God will not break covenant as that would make him a liar and he is not a man that he should lie.

If God was just going to choose who would be saved and who would not,there would have been no reason for Jesus to make the sacrifice and pay the price for thoes who would accept it.God could just choose and Jesus could have stayed in Heaven.

JBabcack
I am sure you think you are correct but when you misinterpret some scripture it won't agree with other scripture.There is just too much scripture that tells us that God would have all men saved.

The bottom line is that I believe Jesus is a real person.You cannot convince me that he is not real because he talks with me every day.I have a relationship with him.I can see how that realtionship makes every aspect of my life better.I have seen the same experience in other people's lives.I have never witnessed another force that affected so many people so profoundly for so long.How can anyone say such a force isn't real.

There will always be fakes,charlatans,or just misinformed zelots,who make Christians look bad.That doesn't mean there aren't real Christians trying their best to be Christ like.There are also many counterfeit $100 bills but I'm not just going to throw away everyone I get because of a few bad ones.

The free will/predestination debate has been going on for about 1700 years. I suggest for your consideration, gentlemen, that we will not solve that problem by hijacking this thread.

I'm sure you are right,but we really aren't ever going to SOLVE any debate here.

This thread has been so many places and directions,I didn't consider it hijackable.

That brought a tear....

You're missing a couple VERY important points in scripture. Jesus said it's God's will that NO MAN perish. If that's the case, why would HE predestine someone to hell? He'd be defeating his own purpose. Then in Romans 8, Paul said that God predestines those who He foreknows. He predestines, yes, but man still has the choice. Those predestined are those who will make the choice for Christ. God doesn't decide for us, He just knows in advance who they will be.
The Bible doesn't use the word predestine like we do. We take it to mean that the decision is made for us but Paul doesn't use it like that. Paul means that God is preparing a place for us in heaven when He knows that we will choose Christ.

Far as I can tell it amounts to the same thing, which ends up being predestination if you take it back far enough.For the record, I think your both wrong.

Who are "they"? Those who began time again in honor of Jesus? No, I would guess they were convinced, not only that He was a real person but also the most important person in history. Of course, some can never be convinced. Pity, that.

Actually there are self made [bleep] in this world who open minder reject Christ. I can live with it. They are just asking for what they get.

Thats because Jesus loves you more than the hunderds of thousands of dead children from lukeima, polio, Aids, starvation, ectectect?
Wow. He is a loving god, huh?
If those stupid kids in the burn ward at the ronald mcdonald house just had parents who would pray for them...
Its so sad.

And when someone digs up something that proves Jesus existed I may revisit the idea. But for now he's filed between Bigfoot and Spiderman.