I would quickly re-asses my thoughts concerning my standing with the public, especially the criminal types. I would realize that less and less people of all types are losing their respect and fear for me and are becoming less willing to do as I say when I yell at them to "git on the graound" or sit down on the curb or willingly allow me to search their car knowing that I will do my best to wreck the interior. And that wherever I may be, there are several video cameras pointing at me from several angels so if I start punching and beating on someone I will be reported.

A prime example of what is causing a huge drop in respect for cops is the young hot-shot cop in Texas a few days ago the beat on and tased the old black guy because he was resisting arrest. Nobody wants to be arrested, especially when you have done no wrong. The punk wouldn't give the old guy a chance to speak up for himself but if he had, the whole situation could have ended up on a much happier note and jerk cop would still have a job. The way he conducted himself is bad enough but for other cops to hold up for guys that act in that manner is completely ridiculous. That adds more to the "us against them" attitude.

And I would try at all times to be on high alert and never let my guard down. It is very sad that the two that were assassinated in NYC were so quickly and easily taken out of the picture by one demented person.

No, I'm not a cop and never have been. I have some very good friends that are police of some kind that I have a lot of respect for and also know a few that are as sorry an excuse for a lawman as anybody could be.

Ya'll be careful out there.

I worked as an LEO for 5 years....until I started my aviation business and enjoyed the service but not the politics involved!! IMO today the upper echelon of police agencies doing the vetting....need to be vetted!!

Wow...who'd a guessed? Thanks for the advice.

To be more accurate, the old man wasn't black. He was a Meskin.

Cop isn't fired yet. The Texas Rangers are investigating. The outcome of his disposition as LEO is still pending.

Guess that means you will never offer advice to a civilian then huh?

You have the right to remain silent.

good advice.

Only if I know something about their needs. If you need to know something about fishing or cooking...I'm your man. Oh...and about being a cop, of course.

The end game is not for the citizens to lose respect for the LEO's the end game is for the LEO's to lose all respect for the citizens.

If they can accomplish that anything will fly, gun confiscation included. Once we lose their respect the relationship is broken and the police will become a tool of the state to be used against the public.

Last time I checked, we get paid by tax payers, and not through the people you guys put in Washington. Respect is a two way street. Some earn it, some don't.

Lol...those haven't or can't always know a better way....

Dink

I was brought up to have respect for people until they show you they don't deserve it. I don't care if it is a guy behind the counter at McDonald's, a Minister or a Senator. I'm pretty far down the road and it has worked well so far.

There is no special skill or requirements to be a LEO....which is why there have been an increasing amount of trouble between them and the public.

Well sure. Only a miserble person would do otherwise. Of course, the world is full of miserable people who love company.

More words of wisdom from The Office.

I have more.

That's a very reasoned post.

Pat, you are one reason it's"us against them". You serve us, your employer, we don't serve you, our employee. If you can't or won't take advice from your employer you ultimately will be fired by your employer one way or another.

I am a degreed chemist with a minor in business. If my company needs to hire a chemist they hire a degreed chemist and not one that wants to be a chemist.

Not a put down at all but then tell me what skills/education/requirements are involved in being a LEO?

The older cop helping train a rookie on probation PROBABLY makes his assessment based on several factors. "Would I want him 'going thru a door with me" [ I think that's the right term ] would be on his list.

A rookie who grades well in that assessment might be a tad "too Rambo" to make an ideal cop.

But, if I wuz a cop, I'd probably label him a keeper.

So.......... the Rambos well be with us forever.

There are something like 461,000 local police officers, and 320 million civilians in the US.

Any cop that took advice from each individual citizen out of the 750 that he serves should be fired.

You're not even the 1%, derby.

Okay, since you pay my salary, I'll try to act better.

Well, since you're being narcissistic, I am a degreed LEO, holding a Master's License, a BS in Science, thousands of hours of additional related training certificates in all kinds of usless related stuff, and 32 years of experience in all aspects of LE. Unlike being a chemist however, a simple education does little toward making somebody a cop and they do have to WANT to be one.

I have no idea what a masters lic is? Did you have your BS before you entered law enforcement?

No. I became a cop as soon as I could.

My check has been missing the tax dollars from Montana. Can someone forward that to me? With back pay of course, since I've been taking all this Montana advice from my "bosses" for so long.

Well see that's the point I was trying to get to. LEOs should now be required to have a BS degree in law enforcement before becoming a LEO. The course needs to be structured around today's world. Most degrees LEOs earn, (here in ma) ended up not being worth the paper they were written on. Not saying you per say so cool your jets, but they were getting credits for "life experience" and given degrees without a single bit of classroom work, none.

And BTW LEOS should NOT be allowed to be in a Union as there simply must be a way to weed out those who don't belong there.

In exchange for this I would gladly consider all Leo's skilled white collar employees and not only held to a much higher standard of conduct but to a much higher level of compensation as well.

The LEO of the future needs to be handled in this manner.

"In exchange for this I would gladly consider all Leo's skilled white collar employees and not only held to a much higher standard of conduct but to a much higher level of compensation as well."


Getting the rest of the tax payers to agree on higher compensation may not be easy.

Most don't want more taxes but they do expect a LEO ( or FD,EMS) to show up immediately when they need help.

No. We've tried that. Education never hurts anybody, but it does nothing but limit the applicants we have to choose from in LE. If anything, the age required to be a LE should be higher. Immaturity is biggest factor in most of our problems. There is nothing that can be learned in a classroom that determines whether a person will be good cop, or not. Nothing.

Do tell! However, I understand based on discussions with long time LEO's that departments have a terrible time filling LEO positions due to applicants not meeting the "no special skill or requirements". Funny how that can be.

The problem then is you will never weed out the bad seeds.

And you are wrong about the BS degree. It takes a lot of work to get one, it takes a smart person to get one.

The length of of school weeds out the unqualified. I also believe more specific training is required.

LEO's and Unions = organized crime all day long, you can't have it.

It's time for LE to come over to the white collar/management side of the world and the public will simply need to accept the higher compensation as standard for that type of education.

Can't speak to Iowa but in MA there is a long waiting list. A waiting list of Brothers, Sisters, Cousins, Nephews, Uncles, Friends, Hacks...

Nepotism is destroying the LE profession.

I believe there in your statement is the main problem in the LEO community, Most of the complaints are about officers in their 2 year of service, they are just getting confident in their position and yet do not have the experience a senior officer does. And then situations get out of hand. A older start date would allow for more training and more time to develope skill sets needed in life and as an officer.

Do tell... just like it weeds out all the bad doctors, lawyers, engineers, etc. Good luck with that unbridled faith in higher education.

Never understood why somebody should need a bachelors or better from a liberal college (ain't they all?) to be law enforcement. Like we don't have enough problems now that we want to require all officers to listen to 4 years of liberal professors?

Associates I could maybe understand.

Requiring education to delay when people can become leo's sounds like something the politicians in Washington would come up with.

But the system allows the weeding out of bad Doctors, lawyers and the like.

It takes an act of God to weed out those who have no business in LE.

Times have changed.

That may be true in Mass., but it's certainly not true across the nation. Since you seem to be viewing the entire profession through a Mass. lens, the warped perspective is understandable.

I can only speak for the agencies I've worked for, but all required either a Bachelor's degree or a minimum of four years on the job. Guess which ones made the better cops?

Hint, a piece paper framed in glass hanging on the wall doesn't mean shiit in the real world. Lots of book smart people out there who don't have the common sense to pour piss out of a boot with the instructions on the heel.

And out of 27 years, I've worked exactly 13 months and 10 days under a union.

Why can't everybody decide what kind of cops they want for their community? Lots of departments require a college degree and pay accordingly. Other communities can't afford it, and frankly don't need it.

A lot of police work in a lot of places can be handled by someone with empathy, common sense, a sense of humor and a 10th grade education.

And without the interference of some stranger from Massafreakinchusetts.

Notice that of the better cops, your agencies made none of them. They required those cops to come up through other agencies that didn't have the stupid education requirement.

Which is why I hate education requirements in most jobs.

Sample of two, but it makes the point.

I worked with a guy who had a degreein, and had worked in the field of, aerospace engineering. But he was an awful cop because he was a lazy, arrogant coward.

Another partner had a GED. But he was fearless and cared more about the people he served than anyone I've seen.







A college degree requirement will weed out the unintelligent. But the things that make a good cop can't be taught. They can be honed and practiced, but not learned.

Agreed. As with most professions, one gets good at their profession by actually working in their profession. The best way to learn how to do something is to 'do it'.

Exactly.

Give me a badge and a TASER and I'll show ya'll some remarkable displays of immaturity.

OUtstanding point, and IMO well under way.

I have some good friends who are LEO and the general consensus is they pretty much cant wait to retire.

That gives me a warm and fuzzy thought...

If a judge ever returns a finding of frivolous lawsuit and throws a case out, defendent gets to taser the plaintiff's lawyer.

Could make a reality show out of it... Running Lawyer.

Oh, BIG BUCKS on viewership!

Okay, hijack over.

Yep, , the best way to learn how to do brain surgery is to just get in there and dig around.

That's right, although "get in there and dig around" is more than a little bit inaccurate. Point bein', as many have posted here, that few things take the place of experience. These guys really start learning how to be cops after they get out of the academy and actially start working as cops.

You sound like an idiot.

Most degrees everybody earns anywhere these days are not worth the paper they're written on. They're spitting out IT and business management specialists like bunnies and most of them can't boot up a computer and balance their checkbooks.

And while you're "considering" all Leo's skilled white collar employees entitled to a much higher level of compensation, are you willing to actually "pay" for it?

When was the last time you had to deal, personally, with a cop?

Law school simply teaches one a certain way of thinking. Real life lawyering has little to nothing to do with what I learned in law school.

I can bring mine to the hog hunt. A cool 10 spot if you taze bobby in the nuts. You still owe him after the phone incident.

In all seriousness , 28 would be a good starting age.

In this day and age, who in their right mind would want to be an LEO?
There are POS in every occupation. Degreed or not. I give alot of credit to the ones that really want to go into the profession knowing the consequences..... you are chitted on by the ones up above, your are under the spotlight no matter what you do, and chitted on by the ones you are trying to serve and protect.... in escence you are a reverse Chit Sandwich.... oh yea....there are people out there trying to kill them for doing their job, all the while they are thinking of how to go home alive everyday to be with their families and have a normal life like everyone else.... you want their job? I think if anyone wants to criticize them, walk a mile in their shoes and let us know how it goes.... and yes, I have several family members in LE.... State, City, and Corrections .... this world is going to hell in a hand basket...

The guys most frequently "weeded out of the system" are those who do have higher education. Most of them just don't have anything else. I know the business, just as probably know chemistry. The last thing the public needs (or wants) is a bunch of geek cops who never got in a fight or skipped school. They are the pricks that NOBODY likes. That's why a very large percentage are veterans.

Mac...I think (in hindsight) 25 would be a good starting point.

I'm still the employer like it or not. Obviously, my power is through my elected officials and not directly to the police department. But I'm still one of the employers.

That's a nice thing about the sheriff's office the sheriff is directly elected by the employers, no third party there.

Thanks for the sympathy, but cops don't get into the business expecting it to be a nice place. They just want to help people, catch bad guys or in the case of the narcissists...have power. We know the public is largely supportive of us and that the dickheads who don't are in the super minority.

Obviously, I don't live in your neck of the woods so I don't pay any part of your salary unless you're part of Obama's nationwide police force. But you get the point, the people in your area are your employers and do pay your salary.

I've met plenty of stupid POS's that had degrees. Doesn't take a genius level IQ or an admirable work ethic to get one.

Depending on specific school and field of the degree of course.

Don't by so damn stupid. I'm referring to the people in your area just like I pay part of the paycheck of the police in my area.

Police should be able to do to as they wish when dealing with any civilian. That is the consensus among the officers here and on sites that cater to police officers. As the officers here have stated, only police should have input on police work. That is why you see bad officers who go against that concept get treated like this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrian_Schoolcraft

while brave officers like these:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...s-tot-burned-swat-raid-article-1.2050396

are welcome in any department or LE function in the nation.

Some of the persons responding deserve to be policed by those w/ the critical thinking skills and physical and moral courage of DD and HarryM. Those that are not a good cop have no concept of what it involves.

mike r

Just because you pay federal taxes and agencies far away from you line up to get access to those dollars doesn't mean you should have any say in what goes on in Texas any more than what you say should have any effect on the desires of Montana officers.

Think they have done that on a small scale in a couple of areas. Nothing to do with respect, just what the officers were ordered and trained to do. They aren't stupid so they know that is just part of it and since they aren't drafted they obviously support confiscating weapons.

I'd settle for one that considers it a tragedy if an innocent person dies from the actions of a fellow cop.

If all LEO's had bachelors degrees and masters degrees we would need to be paid what that is worth on the market. The taxpayer could never afford to pay those salaries. I had a 2 year degree and for the most part it was what I needed to get in the door in 1979. I started as an Army MP in 1973 so I was involved in some form of LEO just a year out of High school.

As for a 4 year degree it meant nothing then except it opened doors to jobs outside of Police work and to Federal LEO jobs where people skills for the most part are not required. I knew a good chief who had NO degree. Unfortunately he was as smart if not smarter than the City Manager who had a Masters. It took a good year but he finally got the Chief fired. What an embarrassment! Not the fired Chief but the chity manager.

It's what is in a guys head before he ever applies. The degrees may get you a deputy chiefs job or a chiefs job but then you don't really need any street skills. You need the skills it takes to keep from getting fired by a retard chity manager or mayor with a political agenda. I would like to say the smarter guys had 4 year degrees but it only meant they stayed in school longer. Now to get to Sergeant you need a 4 yr. degree. Here again, you don't have to be the smartest, you only need to stay in school longer to get to the next level.

Common sense and the Golden Rule are the primary things a person needs to be a good cop. If you treat people fair and with respect your job is half done. The degrees impress other people who have degrees but Joe Citizen doesn't care about the degrees. They only care about the officer's people skills, common sense and being treated fair. Most of all they want the officer to offer a solution, help them get their property back and bring the bad guys to justice. Many citizens will bend over backwards to help you catch the bad guys. You need to be there when they offer the help and be prepared to do something about it.

Of course this means that the citizen has to meet the officer half way as well. Folks who yell " kill the pigs" have failed that hurdle and no matter how hard the officer tries, he or she will never be successful in their eyes.

WE did have a union. It was to fight for the things unions commonly fight for but the primary function was for wages and benefits. If we did not have a union, we would have all been under the poverty level with no benefits. Our process of eliminating under qualified officers was a good process and for every example I am aware of, successful.

Of course, Iowa is a right to work State and the Iowa legislature has done a good job of defining Labor Laws that are basically fair to both sides. If the legislative process is screwed up a Union won't change that. It only makes the "Union" thing worse. If you want more control over the Unions, get more control over your legislature or stop complaining.

Just my observations.
kwg

That seems reasonable.

"Moral courage"?

moral courage, what a concept huh. Give 'em hell Lt.

mike r

I agree with you on almost every point. The exception is "paying" for higher education. There are plenty of people wanting to be cops, with and without higher education. Most of them can not pass background checks.

"Mac...I think (in hindsight) 25 would be a good starting point."

I noticed from an earlier post that you became a cop "as soon as you could". That's why the hindsight.

A salesman has plenty of experience as a buyer. He brings that to his job. An engineer spends a good bit of his life dealing with problems[think automobile] caused by other engineers. Doctors get sick and hurt.

A cop who's entire adult life has been as a cop, has never seen the other side "of the counter". He's never been subjected to the arrogance and B.S. some cops display on a regular basis, or been physically mistreated AFTER the cuffs are on, just for fun.

You guys inhabit a world pretty much immune from mistreatment by the others in your profession.

I can't think of another field of employment like that.

Hell, even Lawyers get sued by other Lawyers.

But lurking on the roads and writing traffic tickets to commuters isn't helping people or catching bad guys. It's simply generating revenue for the government. Expired plates, no seat belt, 10 mph over the speed limit, etc.. If cops came across to working people/taxpayers as simply wanting to help people and catch bad guys, I think a lot of the public perception of cops from those folks in particular would be way more positive than it is.

The education thing doesn't really hold water with me. Ltppowell said,

I've never been a cop, but that makes sense to me.

I like what Bluedreax said about it earlier.


I've met some, a lot of, pretty stupid people with degrees. In fact, shortly after taking the first job I got after getting my Associates degree, I heard a guest on the local radio station in New Orleans, with a Doctorate degree no less, ranting about white people putting chemicals in the Coke vending machines that made black men sterile. He claimed the chemical knew what color the skin was of the person drinking it and didn't affect white people.

At any rate, I'd worked hard for my degree yet I continually ran into people dumber than a box of rocks with a "college degree". It really bothered me until one day a man told me, "Some people are educated beyond their ability to synthesize the information". That was an epiphany for me.

And do you have any idea just how many "big" cases come from simple traffic stops?

I've recovered stolen firearms, made countless narcotics and DUI arrests, not to mention warrant arrests. Hell we picked up a guy wanted for murder in Ca on a traffic stop

A lot of bad guys are caught from traffic stops, as are drugs. Sometimes even shoot outs and tussles are generated from traffic stops.

Merry Christmas and a Happy GFY.

Add another 10-note. And a mason jar. This has too much potential.

As to the rest of this thread... one longs for the days of sanitariums. There, that should get the paranoid's a goin'.

Then if you stop somebody on a simple traffic stop, and it's not a 'big' case...and you don't recover stolen firearms, and you don't make a narcotic or DUI arrest, and you don't pick up a guy wanted for murder...then why don't ya' just let em' go without writing them a ticket...?

I grew up in the hood and got jacked up by city cops for crap I didn't do. I also got arrested for a bogus charge by hick Sheriff deputies that ultimately all went to Federal prison. It has nothing to do with "not seeing the other side". It has to do with maturity. Some people never do.

I'm not a cop but I have law enforement friends all over the country & they work their butts off trying to do a good job. Most of them could make more money with a lot less stress doing something else but they choose to stay, trying to make life safer & better for most of us, I know there are some bad apples out there but for the most part those guys are way under appreciated.
Whenever I get the chance & see a couple of cops having coffee I'll pay for it, I don't want them to know who I am, I'm not looking for a favor or to put them on the spot, its my way of saying thanks guys, you are doing a hella of a job!

Dick

What's that got to do with me?

I hated writing traffic tickets and doing accident reports but some things have to be done to keep some semblance of order and prove to the Lt's you weren't just chasing the girls or hanging out at the Kwik Trip. But, with some diligence a lot of interesting and exciting things come from a simple traffic stop.
kwg

Generally I do...I haven't written a ticket in 6 months. And that was the first one in over a year, aside from tickets that resulted in arrests

You proved my point by being the exception.

I'm bettin' you don't jack people up or arrest them on bogus charges, and part of that just might be due to your time on the receiving end.

Curdog your ignorance is constantly on display. If you think cops are immune to mistreatment by other cops you have never worked under some of the superiors and politicians that real cops are forced to have as "leadership".

mike r

Good for you brother. Seriously. I wish more of em' were like you in those regards.

Look, Little Mikey, this makes twice you've responded to a post I've made, and both times your response misses the point of my post entirely.

And both times, you've called ME ignorant.

There are some grown-up cops participating on this thread.

Your reading comprehension score won't be nearly as low if you'll just go off and play with Derby Dude.

Yep, keeping civilians in line is all that matters as shown here:

http://www.statesman.com/news/news/tab-for-wrongful-convictions-in-texas-65-million-a/nWLQM/

I'll bet the majority of cops are. Hell I got stopped last week. I was in a hurry and had a rental car. Not paying attention and was definitely going like hell. Saw the flashing lights, pulled over turned the interior light on, placed my hands on the steering wheel until the officer walked up. He said hello "I said I was probably going a bit to fast, i'm sorry. I have to work later tonight and just wasn't paying attention". Hsi response to me was thank you for your honesty, you just set the tone for how this interaction is going to go. He asked for my license and reg. I said sir This is a rental i'm not sure there is a registration but i'll look(there was) then I said Sir, I have a pistol permit and am carrying, it's on my right hip, my wallet is in my right back pocket i'm going to reach back and get my wallet I just want you to be aware of the firearm. He said thank you for being honest. I handed him my licnese and asked him how much the fine would be. He said nonticket, just a warning and thanked me for being polite and responding the way I did....but that's about how every encounter with LE i've had had gone...


The flip side is the entire hob scope of some cops is to enforce traffic laws, and the most objective way to do that is to write everyone you stop. You can't hold it a gainst the man for doing his job.

That's kinda what I do, but it doesn't always work. I got stopped just turning on to I10 from Tallahassee in a rental that I had to bring back from Miami. I was speeding. I asked the trooper if I was stopped for my [bleep] driving or if it was an interdiction stop. (hint,hint) I guess he was one of those nerds I mentioned earlier...I got the ticket. (And yes, I was working.)

Pat unless i'm out of state or around my Geographical area of Employment, I don't even carry my badge. I try not to wven hint at what I do. I've had to answer to the chief for a couple tickets. One really stupid one was I got checked by USFWS. And had forgotten to sign my duck stamp.

Curdog, little mikey here.If you don't want to be regarded as ignorant upgrade the quality of your spiel. The reality you have problems recognizing is that w/out the "rough men" on the walls you, and those like you, would be subject to having the cannibals making your nutsacks into very small purses.

mike r

I started at 22. By that time I had built and owned my own house and was married and had a son. With five years of industrial construction experience behind me.

Age can help, college can help, but that doesn't hardly tell the whole story of a person's life or attitude or ability.

Those guys in particular are pricks and a$$holes. If you can do your job without being that way, then so can they. They're not helping people or catching bad guys. And those types deserve whatever hell the working public/taxpayers give em'. They 'choose' to be that way...and we can 'choose' to hold it against them.

I was hired at 20. Out of college, had put myself theough the academy and worked full time running heavy equipment.

They are a prick and an azzhole just because they wrote you a ticket?

Yep.

I've felt that way for every ticket I've ever had.

So then you must have been a prick and an azzhole that did something to warrant the ticket. Otherwise you just wouldn't have been stopped

Actually, you clarified them being pricks and a$$holes by your objective statement above. That's a whole different job scope than helping people and catching bad guys.

Yeah, those 'big crimes' like expired plate, no seatbelt, 10 mph over the speed limit, etc.. Real prick and a$$hole stuff. Real bad guy stuff.

Just because someone is doing their job does not make them a prick or an azzhole

I know troopers who work traffic and have one of the above "traffic" jobs. They write everybody they stop. But you've really fugged up if they stop you. One i know won't stop for a speed less than 70 in a 55 and 80 in a 65...

And I bet you had no idea that plat was expired, and just took off your seatbelt to adjust your wallet, and didn't see that speed sign huh? How many times a day do you think a traffic cop hears those excuses?

Being a prick and an a$$hole by how they 'choose' to do their job makes them a prick and an a$$hole. You have stated that you choose to do your cop job differently...better...actually serving the working public/taxpayers.

You know why we are there? Because some other tax payer called and complained about the traffic at that intersection/roadway. Someone's daughter/wife/son almost got hit there and they want something done.

It usually goes well until you ticket the person that called and complained.

Dink

Next time cry and/or offer to show your tits...

Those are pretty loose parameters. I can appreciate those. And I appreciate cops who choose to work that way.

And how should they choose to do their job?, which by the way is to enforce traffic laws

That's just the point gitem...it's nothing more than a money grab. So what if a plate is expired...? Go catch a real bad guy. So what if I didn't wear my seatbelt....? The flippin' government don't care...they just use it as an excuse to extort more money from people. And you just said some cops give leeway's of 15 mph over the speed limit...! It's nothing more than collecting revenue for the government. It's not helping people, and it's not catching bad guys. And there's a bunch of cops...not you..,who are willing to extort that money from the public no matter how minor the infraction is in the scheme of things.

By having the same type of attitude that you've described for yourself when performing your job.

What does expired plate or no seatbelt have to do with any of what you just said...? Nobody minds if you're there...be there...! If your visible presence there will make a dangerous intersection safer, then be there. But extorting money from working people/taxpayers isn'takinh anything safer. It's just making those people in particular dislike cops in general because of the ones that gitem said see it as the whole scope of their job to enforce traffic laws.

Hey, chief, hold on for a minute. Nowhere have I said anything that would cause anybody with any sense at all to read "advice to cops." I simply stated things I would do if I were a cop. And my disclaimer is really me doing some high tech bragging as I have always held an honest productive job and never been so useless that I had or even wanted to be a burden to the taxpayers. So what is wrong with what I had to say? If what I said was intended as advice to cops, where do you find fault?

Really, you are going to have to do better on your attempt to make me look foolish as you did a very poor job of it and you have a lot of hangers-on here that are depending on you to be their fearless leader and really come up with something great. I see that Dinky stood up as one of your followers which is not a surprise but Blew, I thought, was pretty much his own man up until a few months ago. Should you ever make a sharp right turn without signalling first there are going to be a bunch of these guys suffering from broken noses. Be careful.

So now how about playing the part of a mature adult, if possible, and point out the wrong statements? Your admirers just might profit from you doing that.

Carry on.

Does that work...?

Do you know why most people have expired plates?.........cause they don't have insurance and can't get them renewed (here anyway). You want to hear people squall wait until they hit by a uninsured motorist.

Seat belt law (also our helment law) was made by congress. Made by the people that were elected by the people. I don't exactly agree with them but have to enforce them. When people complain about getting a ticket for them I tell to contact thier congressman.

Dink

I laced em up at 28. Being a cop never crossed my mind till I was about 27.

Sadly a lot of that traffic enforcement is demanded by the public. The sheer number of speeding and driving complaints that get called in would boggle the average mind.

Well of course you didn't get cited for a traffic offense. LE shouldn't be treated the same as civilians as shown here:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...officer-gave-citations-misses-trial.html

You don't 'have' to enforce a chicken$h!t law like that. You 'choose' to do it.
And people question whether or not cops would confiscate private firearms if Congress passed a law requiring them to do so...?

So what is the purpose of the Missouri Legislature if the US Congress is actually the source of The Missouri Code of State Regulations?

Okay, I can play that game.

If I "wuz" a dickhead with an axe to grind, I wouldn't get on the internet and sound like a little kid, crying because nobody is giving me enough attention. That's not advice...just what I wouldn't do.

Lol...only play you had.

Vote wisely....cause laws are made by the people that speak for the people.

Dink

Bull. You can buy insurance just long enough to get a plate, and then cancel the insurance. If cops were serious about uninsured motorists, they'd have checkpoints daily checking just for proof of insurance. They have drunk driving checkpoints sometimes at night, but how often do they have proof of insurance checkpoints during the day...?
Some people don't register their cars for the same reasons some people don't register their guns.

Don't mind him DINK, we know police like yourself support firearms safety laws including confiscation to make us safer and your job easier.

And there's always gonna be some cops that are more than willing to enforce those laws no matter how chicken$h!t and unjust they are.

It's not a "play". It's a fact.
You clearly stated your position above.

A BS degree neither makes a good chemist or good law enforcement officer. Both are made by their upbringing. Education is a plus, but the background was molded by proper upbringing. Over abundance of educated idiots out their that are running short on common sense and proper upbringing. GW

And that's really the best you can do?

Cops ARE civilians.

The idea that they somehow are not is a huge problem.

Just checked back in on this thread and am pleased to see that it remains in the running for having some of the all-time dumbest [bleep] statements I've ever read on the 'Fire, and that's saying something. My faith in the bottom rung of the ladder here is fully restored.

Actually, a degree is a hurdle. It makes an applicant prove that they have motivation and desire to enter a field that requires it.

My current profession is a lot like yours in that the degree I have (RN) is a hurdle, just like LE degree you need here in MN to be a cop. I learned 99% of what I do on the job after I got said degree, but getting the degree provided a process to week out those who didn't want to actually put forth any effort to join the ranks of the profession, as well as the lazy and stupid.

I'm in IT, and degrees are normally required.

Even in an industry where folks who didn't finish college include Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, Larry Ellison.

The REAL problem is most managers don't have any actual skills, and thus can't hire people based on their skillset. They have to rely on a piece of paper.

I would also point out that, in my situation, I started being an RN with a two-year degree. I had my hospital pay for me to finish a 4-year. Now, all the metro hospitals are trying to only hire 4-year degree RN's. After about 20 years the difference in pay had I not finished my 4-year degree is less than a buck an hour. Not really worth it if you are making almost 50 bucks an hour with the 2-year degree....

Much like some LEO's in the thread have stated, the paper doesn't make the man (or woman). The two year school I went to had 98% of the class pass boards the first time. ONE idiot (class of 50)failed, and she never became an RN, and never should have. She was book smart, but completely lacked common sense. One of the expensive 4-year nursing programs in the cities got put on probation by the state board of nursing the year I graduated. They had a 60-something percent pass rate on boards. Those people paid 8x what I did per credit to not be taught what they needed to pass boards.

MN requires a two-year degree for law enforcement. I think that is a good thing, as it ensures that at least the person is around 20 and demonstrated a desire that they followed through with.

When I first started I was paid so little that we qualified for government assistance. So I did what everybody did and took a second job. It took a job and a half to survive, two jobs to make any headway at living.

Not for or against a college degree requirement. But men aren't gonna get a degree for a job that pays poverty level wages. And not all communities can afford to pay a lot.

Which is why it needs to be up to local communities to figure out what'll work for them.

Glad you liked it. Rungs are where it starts.

Police are a militarized occupation force, not civilians. That is why they are mentioned as exempt in statutes intended to control civilians and/or they do not enforce those laws against each other. Totally different group than civilians.

You looking forward to Christmas break little guy? What is Santa gonna bring you?

Yep, police aren't paid well at all:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...nce-victims-list-grows-article-1.2000120

http://www.okc.gov/okcpd/recruiting/index.html

http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/40/4055000.html

What's with the snarky comments? I am on your side. I post support for the same individuals and groups you do. So why do you act towards me in this manner?

You don't support anything I support, you can't even cone up with an original thought. But I bet your momma's still proud enough of you to let you live in the basement rent free

This former Baltimore policeman paints a different picture in the respect department.

"When I was a police officer in Baltimore, I would drive around and put out one brush fire after another. It would have been easy to be overwhelmed by the lives broken by repeated bad choices, by the mentally ill, the children who grow up without hope, another murder victim, the literal stink of society's least wanted and the sheer magnitude of human idiocy.

As to police danger, it shouldn't be overstated (police officers are paranoid enough as is), but the danger isn't just in the small though real risk of being attacked and killed. What screws with your head is the constant occupational demand of hyper alertness -- of having to engage with and confront danger, and always on danger's terms.

When I cleared a drug corner, sometimes I couldn't help but wonder why the dealers didn't just jump me. Effective compliance is as much earned as ordered, but I don't think they obeyed me because they liked me (at least I hope not). Bluster aside, my job and safety depended on respect and deference to my authority"

---------------
now its certainly possible that once the thin blue line is torn apart that the police would serve in a different capacity but I can't imagine them being very effective in that environment.

ci�vil�ian

n.
1.
a. A person who is not an active member of the military, the police, or a belligerent group in a conflict.

you really want to define yourself as not being a civilian?

I don't think he defined himself as anything. He simply posted the definition of the word from the dictionary

I wish I WAS a civilian, and will be before long.

You and me both... Possibly in about 6 weeks

Best of luck.

Looks like sherp and the rest of the non-proactive folks will get their self-fulfilling prophecy when all the decent cops decide they've had enough.

As you know, lots of people regret never doing police work. Few, however, regret leaving it.

I wonder if that fat-assed,loser Chirp has yet to realize that 98% of the members have his worthless cacklings on ignore.

My guess is he's too F'in stupid to figure it out.

I'm pretty sure he's too stupid to know he's stupid.

So you wanted Darren Wilson arrested, charged, and likely convicted over the 2013 video taping arrest and false report he did? No kidding?

I guess that clears up any ambiguity on the topic

Dink, of all the douchebag cops I've conversed with on gun site's you are the #1 douche of them all. I hope you enjoy you status, and I hope one day to be able to hear about someone giving you what you so richly deserve. I really hope I get to read about it.

At first I thought like that too

now I've come around . Put me in the 2%. We all need a mirror held up to us - sometimes we're able to realize we don't like what we see.

Hey TAK.. Did Rick flush your 4321 handle? How many are you down to now?

That is the only kind of cop there is, decent. The only difference between now and any other time in history is cell phone cameras. Work to ban those and your seeming lack of faith in our current LE professionals will go away.

I know I don't.

It took a decade and a half, but my heartrate doesn't even jack up when I hear sirens anymore.

you're a dumb ass, you don't know Pat so you have no businesses passing judgement on him. i look at police as individuals you can't judge one by the actions of another. would be like assuming everyone from FL was a kook because TRH lives there.

Doesn't describe me at all unless he is describing himself.

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/9447225/Searchpage/1/Main/658784/Words/%22Isaac+makes+money%22/Search/true/Re_Open_Revolt_Against_Washing#Post9447225

some of the wealthiest men i know didn't finish high school.

So I have skimmed through some of the posts here, and I can not figure out what some people want. Is it:

No police or law enforcement? Barney, Mayberry days are not coming back. If you ever talk to really old timers they will tell you they went from proactive to reactive decades ago. Gee, I wonder if that anything to do with the great new society the 60s produced.

Sure there are bad cops, there is bad or good in any job field. It's all about attitude and maturity.

Imagine if you will what this country/society would look like with out the thin blue line.

As far as the pay issue goes, that's all relative. Some, I said some required you to live in your county/wherever or a few minutes away. High cost=higher pay.

i've only gotten 3 tickets in the last 20 yrs and i've been pulled over a hell of a lot more than that, but i'm always respectful and honest ( don't try to make excuses)

the thin blue line works/exists because it has the support of the public...financially, legislatively, and thru general goodwill and presumed good intent

The more that support erodes, the less effective police can be.

you're way off mark with that response.

After reading thru this thread, I'm a little flabbergasted to say the least....don't understand all of this hostility toward ANY LEO... especially most of the guys we have here on the campfire...

Well at least they have my respect, and not my condemnation..

I don't like to get pulled over any more than the next guy....

so I have a real novel approach to that solution... I do the darn speed limit...hated it at first, but got use to it after a while..
but I get out on the highway and set the cruise on 5 mph below the speed limit, and pretty much watch the world go by me...yet don't feel I get where I am going any slower.. and it sure is nice not having to worry about being on the look out for a cop cruiser...

and I'll say that about 80% of the time I have ever been pulled over in my life, I got away with a warning... and I admit to having a silver tongued 'secret weapon'.....I show the officer respect, consideration and obedience...yes sir, no sir...

The main problem isn't the LEOs, its the public and their attitudes... its now the ME generations...it wasn't the cops fault you got pulled over... or the cops fault, he had to stop and speak with you...

I assisted an Oregon State Trooper once on top of Mt Ashland, the highest point on I 5 on the west coast.. there was a 20 vehicle pile up, on an ice covered 200 yds of road, due to wind blowing snow across the freeway.... one trooper made it up....

before he got there, I ran over to a trucker and had him use his CB to get other truckers to block the highway, so no more vehicles were coming down...when the trooper got there, I told him I was a military trained Paramedic, and had just moved from MN, so I was equipped to be out in the cold... Californians were up there in flip flops shorts and t shirts, in the middle of winter, and out side their wreaked cars....

I assisted him and helped him contain the situation and provided first aid to those that needed it...

Then I wrote a letter to the Oregon State Police HQ, and let them know what a professional the Trooper was, and how he avoided the problem getting any worse...

What shocked me was the response from that letter... the first line of it was "thank you, we don't hardly ever see a letter like this...."

The public can certainly call or write to bitch, but not many feel inclined to praise the professionalism of LEOs....

yeah like everything, there is a certain percentage of officers that are AHoles.... but ya know, on the flip side of the coin, I think there is even a greater percentage of the general public that are AHoles...and the LEO have to deal with them and still maintain a professional demeanor...

I couldn't be an LEO, but I certainly respect the ones that have to put on the uniform daily and go out and do an unthankful job,, protecting an ungrateful public...

"rough men" on the walls"......... .

You gotta be schittin' me.

Go find DINK and swap war stories. It's OK to invent them.

As long as both sides use the it's them, not me, then status quo will remain the rule. I do understand that status quo is what many actually want in the first place.

Seafire, you obviously ain't met Dink

I'll bet you haven't met him either. I'll aslo bet you are your own worst nenemy when it cones to interaction with LE.

Awwwww...did I hurt your feelings again?

I have no doubt you would have to read about someone doing something to me. Guys like you sit around and have to read about everything cause you never done anything....

Dink

Nah, I get along with 'em fine around here, they're not arrogant little pricks.

Your an idiot, I forgot more about doing real [bleep] than your little punk ass will ever know.

Hey Curdog, apparently that upgrade didn't take. Try again.

mike r

Mirage 243, you just qualified yourself as a genuine internet tough guy.

mike r.

Thanks

You can't judge the actions of any LEO unless it is happening to you. You should wait till the results of the investigation to pass judgement. Just look at all the idiots who believed the lies about George Zimmerman. You shouldn't join their stupidity.

The 'lies" about Zimmerman actually weren't lies at all. He murdered that kid.

I think Zimmerman was innocent, that said - I believe the public at large can and should judge the actions of LEOs. Public Servants...

The kid had every right to be there, he was minding his own business as well. Zimmerman, a wanna be tough guy (only when he's armed) confronted the kid and the kid likely told him to F off. So Zimmerman likely grabbed him and bit off more than he could chew and was getting the sxxt smacked out of him in a fight he started. So Zimmerman finds this unacceptable and pulls out his metal courage and shoots a 17 year old. No biggy though as he was black and....well...you know.

Zimmerman was for sure guilty of a manslaughter charge.

How many of you having Son's that age, who came home and told you Zimmerman beat them up on the way home and actually shot him, wouldn't grab your sidearm and tell the misses "I'll be back in a minute"

Tavon never got that chance to tell his side. He wasn't a bad kid and not much different from many 17 year olds with a little weed issue, skipping school but nothing more than that.

You may want to google his juvenile record for the robbery/burglary issues, along with the stolen items found in his possession at school.

But don't let that stop you, you are on a roll...

Hey, watch it. He's a chemist. He's real, real smart.

You still sticking with that gay guy avatar eh....

So what does one suppose happens when a George Zimmerman gets to be a Cop....

And that is why we need to do away with cell phone cameras or other means for recording police activities. Get us back to that happier time when the claims of the officers involved were all that mattered.

FOAD.

Does this mean that he's smoking his own meth?

Everything that happened there was on the level since Zimmerman was going on ride alongs with the police. Zimmerman got in with them so well his initial condemnation of this incident:

http://www.mynews13.com/content/new..._allegedly_involving_son_of_officer.html


changed to nothing but praise for their activities.

F off and die...your debating skills along with your high IQ have left me speechless....what are you 10? maybe 11?

Holy God! Another on ignore. That was easy.

We can't hardly hire any cops here (good or bad) because we don't have enough applicants and definitely don't have enough applicants that can pass the test....whatever that is. Not sure of the other requirements.

Glad that works for you, it's always the best call when you are in over your head....

Not only that, but in Oklahoma obeying traffic laws means somewhat less of a chance of an officer having to sexually assault you to maintain order according Captain Brown.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DYNdqwx3LU

Hey Big Ragu, how about some new material?

You've already spammed threads with that schit.

You mean the claim about Missouri seat belt and helmet laws coming from the US Congress is a falsehood?

There's nothing to 'debate', retard. You musta missed the trial.

You are not supposed to make my case for me....didn't know if you knew that.

I...Am....HarryM.

Actually thanks, that guy looks better than me..

Publicly announce that the police, nation wide, are taking the week off. Then do it.

These threads vanish in 2 hours...

But, seriously though...posting silly pictures is a tad lame is it not? Should I put you down for "you got nothing'?

Life will go on as usual. The first sign of an over inflated ego is believing one is indispensable, none of us are, sorry.

Life would go on?

Who's?

Think it would be yours?

That's cute...

So, you ARE from Massachusetts.

The jobs would be re-posted, new hires would step in, and life would indeed go one.

I worked for a guy one time who kept a glass of water on his desk with a pencil in it. Whenever the natives got restless and complained about the job he would say "look at how little the water level changes when I remove the pencil"

Really, don't ever think any of us can't be replaced, that's how you will get ambushed.

Well yes but don't get your nose in a twit seeing as how you got folks like Tom Harkin in your state...you know, people who live in glass houses and all..

Not going to chime in about Zimmerman and just wanted to share my thoughts on LE in general. I was in LE for 12 years, out for 10 and now back in and I can see how the world has changed. The bad guys are different and more importantly societies failure to hold them accountable for their actions is even more disturbing.

Ten years ago if someone ran from you and you duked it out at the end and it was what it was, a nasty fight then ended up with someone in handcuffs, they took their lumps and did not bitch. There was nothing extra given at the end but I am not shy about using reasonable force to get those cuffs on.

A few days ago my partner and I were making a warrant service at a hotel and had a guy come walking out of the room with a gun in his pocket. I told him to turn around and keep his hands up and the fight was on. He was cuffed and still trying to reach around to his front pocket for the gun so I dropped a full power brachial stun on him that ended it. I secured the gun and he came around a few seconds later screaming to everyone the cops were beating a handcuffed man. Your damn right I hit a cuffed suspect and if a witness was standing at the wrong angle they would not see me pull the gun out of his pocket or what started the fight. They would just be all over the news screaming how the cops beat handcuffed people because we are monsters. Turns out he had just shot someone in the hallway about 10 minutes before we got there. All the way to the jail he was demanding medical attention because we "broke his legs". The night before he had been tweaked out on meth and jumped out a second story window for unknown reasons. He also accused us of planting the gun on him, stopping him for no reason, attacking him etc. The average badguy now thinks everything is the cops fault and refuses to take any responsibility for their actions.

And in case someone asks, yes I would have been absolutely justified in shooting him a couple of times during the fight but I didnt. I keep a use of force log as well as a non-use of force log. In the last year I have had 13 incidents where I could have used deadly force per policy and the law but I didnt. Do you think the public will hear about any of those times I did not pull the trigger?

I am also convinced some issues we face everyday are true "no-win" circumstance. Wanna guess what a high collision factor is for the last 5 or 6 fatal accidents I have worked? You would be right if you said cell phones. If I pull someone over for using a handheld device and give a ticket I am a total dick, but you cannot imagine the level of complaints because the police are not writing enough cell phone tickets. Even better is when I am already going to a call and sitting at a light and having a car next to me frantically waving to get my attention that someone else is using a cell phone. Sorry, as much as I would like to pull them over and educate them on how distracted driving creates accidents I need to go handle my call as well as the other calls still holding. I know recently an editorial was published about how cops are lazy and dont do anything all day simply because there was no major case posted in the paper that day. On a four day work week I average one actual lunch break and a couple of stops so I can pee before I explode.

And someone wanted to address dumb laws like registering vehicles, seatbelts etc. Well I can tell you it is a pure pleasure (sarcasm in case someone cannot detect it) to go to an accident where the lack of a seatbelt turned a non or minor injury accident into a major injury. After all we need to keep the trauma centers busy. Also a pretty solid guess that those who dont wear seatbelts tend to rely on the government for medical treatment and will never see a bill that the community as a whole will now have to pay. Please no more complaining about paying for registration since those funds go towards things like actually repairing streets, snowplows, sanding streets etc. I never figured how people somehow feel they are exempt because they dont want to pay for registration.

I have people complain all the time about registration or why they dont have insurance because it is to expensive. I explain that they are correct, cars are expensive and being a car owner goes beyond being able to put gas in the tank. Bikes are much cheaper to operate and dont require gas or insurance but nobody wants to hear that.

I see the media blitz on some topics and want to cringe, I personally refrain from commenting on those issues from the context that I was not there to see and fully experience the events. I was not the one getting punched, trying to develop a super power to see in the dark, or the strength to somehow subdue this guy with minimal injury to self or suspect.

I hear complaints we are over paid but to those not in the business I ask a simple question, what would you charge? I sat down with a reporter recently about salaries and asked him what he would charge and he mentioned a reasonable salary. Then I described the calls from the day before to include holdup alarms, a man with a gun casing a gas station, a transient that took a crap in the middle of a restaurant lobby, the same transient crapping in my car on the way to jail, a warrant service ending in a fence jumping foot pursuit, three domestic disturbances, four kids left in a motel room all day with no food while their parents were out getting drunk, a complaint from a driver that deliberately went the wrong way on a one way street for easier access to a parking spot and was mad I actually wrote him a citation and a lunch break that lasted 4 minutes because other officers were calling emergency traffic for a man with a gun. All of a sudden he did not feel real confident about doing the job for the salary he quoted. Sure there are days when nothing happens, all the bad guys are sleeping in, there are free donuts on every corner and I appreciate it when it happens. Then there are the days when I have to text my wife and let her know about an incident the news is going to cover and that I am in one piece. She has even gotten a sense of humor to ask if I am really in one piece or sitting in the trauma center in mostly one piece.

Sorry for the rant/soapbox moment but I will leave with this quote.

"There is no nice way to arrest a potentially dangerous, combative suspect. The police are our bodyguards; our hired fists, batons and guns. We pay them to do the dirty work of protecting us. The work we'are too afraid, too unskilled or to civilized to do ourselves. We expect them to keep the bad guys out of our businesses, out of our cars, out of our homes and out of our faces. We just dont want to see how it is done."
-Charles H. Webb-

Can't say ANYBODY wants to be arrested, guilty or not. Here's the issue these days, and I suspect I'll be labled a cop apologist, or someone will claim I'm for a "police state", which is a VERY loosely used term these days by cop haters...but anyway...yes, cops make mistakes. They're human, and no amount of training will change that. Some are azzhole, and no amount of training will change that...well you can reduce it, but an azzhole is an azzhole...they work at McDonalds, Walmart, IBM, the State and Federal Gov't and are all up and down the socio-economic ladder and spectrum of race, religions, professions/vocations, etc. Cops are no exception, nor are there an overabundance of azzhole cops. Here' the thing: until we vastly revamp our whole society, to more closely resemble anarchy...we pay cops to do a job. We always have, and we are not unique among societies. I know of no society, or police force that lets the arrestee/suspect decide when it's convenient to be arrested when a cops comes to do his duty. If that's what you want for our society, then by all means, write your congressman. Until then, right or wrong, guilty or not, when the cops shows up to put the cuffs on you, you ARE going to jail, and the only way that changes in the immediate time is if you assault him or kill him, in which case you've probably made your situation a whole lot worse, unless you were wanted for capital murder to begin with...still probably made things worse. You simply don't get to debate with the cop and win. Now I know that some people get all bent the hell outta shape when they are used to being in charge and the police shows up and they are no longer in charge. It hurts their dignity, pride, feelings, and they get angry and sometimes people can't control their anger, and they say and do things they might not otherwise do. Well, we all have to answer for our actions. Hurt a cop, pay a bigger price. If you believe you're innocent, you don't get to talk the cop out of arresting you, and get the right to get pizzed off when he won't "hear you out". Some are nice and patient enough to hear you out THEN arrest you, and some cops need to realize things can go a lot smoother if you just let someone talk a bit and "be heard" but they still are going to take you to jail if that's why they showed up, and they don't have to let you be heard, it's not part of the job when they come to arrest you or give you another lawful order. IF they showed up just to ask questions...your best bet is like Pat said: "you have the right to remain silent" and it's ALWAYS great advice. It may not help you to remain silent, but can, and it can NEVER hurt you. Oh, and "remaining silent" means just that...it does not mean "f**k you cop, I ain't talking, go f**k yourself"...it means silence.

When people start realizing they're not entitled to be heard on the side of the road, or on the street corner when the cops are there...they'll be better off complying with lawful orders of the police until they get police abolished or basic police powers vastly overhauled/weakened in this nation to allow people to not only be heard, but decide their own innocence and force the cops to comply with the findings of the suspect's own internal investigation and finding of "innocent". Be careful what you wish for...

Merry Christmas.

And that's the crux of the whole thing. I believe a higher educated, higher compensated and non union police officers would be what's needed in today's world.

I would like to see it tried in my lifetime but I may f off and die before it happens.

Don't you just hate it when things don't go exactly as planned...

Jury that heard the facts said otherwise.

I think you misunderstood the scenario.

I said that they, ALL of the police (Commissioner on down, hell, throw in federal leo's too) take a planned, scheduled, fully announced week off.

Couldn't get new hires to fill that vacancy (besides there is no vacancy, it's just a week off) fast enough. Especially any with any knowledge of what is happening in the neighborhood, who the resident trouble makers are, etc. Any "JoeBob" that would step up wouldn't have any training.

Fill all those places in a week? You couldn't even get interviews... who'd conduct the interviews?

Individuals can be replaced without disrupting anything. Try to replace an entire industry.

that has been done...

There have been entire departments that required a BS for hire. They didn't fare so well...

You obviously don't spend a lot of time around academia... Talk about arrogance of ineptitude...

OMG...is everyone here today going to make my case for me today?
Did you read what you just said?

It shows that you believe that YOU HAVE THE POWER TO CREATE A POLICE STATE IF YOU GET PISSED OFF AND ALL

That's the problem if even police managers can all walk off and say screw you people, you do what we tell you to do and keep your pucking mouths shut.

You can't allow this, you can't have any local, state or federal police force thinking this is acceptable for criss sakes.

1. A higher educated police department won't think like this.

2. A higher compensated police department won't think like this.

3. A non union police department won't be allowed to believe we are bigger than those we serve and we will shut the place down to prove it.

Who are you? Michael Corleone..."do you know who I am"

Reckon you lost me there. I'm all for Zimmerman.

And I am arrogant and inept? Wow...alright.

1-That picture is as serious as they get. Didn't you see it? That's freaking Heisenberg man...

2-Correct, I got nothing for you. Because I'm gonna stay over here in reality. Your idea is great. But it's just not feasible.

I'd love to work in a place that required their officers to be intelligent and would be willing to pay them accordingly. In fact, I do. I really can't imagine making more money in police work than I do right now.

But there's no way, none, at all, that Podunkville, USA has the resources to do the same.

You keep getting all hoity-toity about this, but repeatedly fail to understand.....

COPS AREN'T GONNA GET PAID ENOUGH TO ACCOMPLISH WHAT YOU WANT

There are few cities that can afford it, and fewer still that have the stomach for it.

I know who the heck it is and it's still lame..and frankly one Heisenberg picture doesn't top one picture of a closeted gay guy anyway.

HarryM's argument essentially consists of stomping his feet and shouting, "If everything were magically exactly the way I want it, they'd be better!.....Reality be danged."

Everytime I'm about to change my avatar, some creeper decides to get infatuated with it.

Sorry Blue, we have a difference of opinion I guess. Until it's tried it can't be proven either way.

And don't take this the wrong way. I have had a long and good career. I did this by replacing those around me who always told me what they can't do with those that told me what they could do.

Do tell..

Hate to think what you might deserve for a post like that. Very childish.

Some astounding ignorance on display here. I feel like I need to stand and applaud! Wow!

Let's break this down...



I guess education hasn't taught you that typing in all caps doesn't make your case stronger. Rather, it makes you look more desperate. A sure sign of a failed premise.

Anyways, my scenario does nothing of the sort. It only demonstrates the depravity of man.

I've been to lots of places around the world with no organized law enforcement. Talk about lost liberty, you should check them out...



But this is perfectly fine with any other job, right?



You mean, you do what your elected officials, representing you, have told us to tell you to do.



1. Wrong
2. Wrong
3. Public Unions are the devil.

Education and higher paychecks don't remove the depravity of man. Consider our Government. It's full of the highest educated, richly compensated people in the World. A lot of good that does...

Geeezzz Man...the wheels are coming off your wagon.

That was in reference to academia. The epicenter of arrogant ineptitude.

I've given specific examples of your proposal failing, and my wheels are coming off?

I take it back, you do have a bit of arrogance going on...

There are police departments that do require a 4 year degree as a condition of being hired. Lots of them. From local to the Federal level.

You're thought experiment is a failure.

Even places that will not waive said degree for Military experience.

My statements are there, your statements are there. They can be judged as they stand.

You made no defense of your direct statement to shut down the police for two weeks. I believe you realized what you said came out Freudian.

Now you wish to veer of into a straw man's arguement which ain't happening.

I don't fall for diversionary fire.

NJ was in hot water lately for paying police officers in excess of $200k.

Just how much do you propose they should make to fix the issue?

http://blog.discoverpolicing.org/un...llege-degree-to-become-a-police-officer/

Only ~1 % require it. And even most police organizations support higher education for police.

Harry's chemistry BS...

First, I proposed one week. Not two. My statement is clear on that. It also wasn't a shut down. It's a vacation.

Freudian? I don't think that word means what you think it means...


Straw man? I'm specifically addressing your premises.

Like you said, your comments are there to be judged. As are mine.

I wish you and yours a Merry Christmas.

I believe that was over port authority "police" and corruption within the port authority.

A non union force allows the weeding of such hacks.

Well, in my defense at least I can actually conduct a viable lab experiment....

I'm done. Yall enjoy banging your head against the wall.

If Harry finds a way for tiny little towns with no crime to pay what I'm making now, more power to him. I'll leave here and head for Mayberry.

Some interesting ideas here........

One thing I find funny is people referring to LEO and civilians as if they are separate. Cops are civilians, just like plumbers, mailmen, and my accountant. It's a job. Many try to make it more, but it is not.

Um, no...

http://www.salon.com/2014/04/11/obscenely_high_police_salaries_wheres_the_political_outrage/

We agree on the union issues. Removing the unions won't fix this though. It'll save a lot of money for the tax payer though. I'm for that.

Yep! You have to define your enemy as not one of you if you are to castigate them.

I think ol Hairy is just having some fun playing contrarian.

To the cop haters and admirers, back up a few pages, take your time and read Varmitsinc's post. He tells it like it is and I am glad to say that he is a good friend of mine. We need more like him.

I read it. It was a well written post describing the typical encounters of the typical cop on any given day. Ask him.

Actually, he just trotted out the same tired liberal tax-and-spend pony, along with a healthy dose of union bashing and assertions that more education will magically transform all cops into whatever he imagines they should be in his wonderfully delusional utopian vision.

Here's a thought for you, Harry. Put down your chemistry set and go through the LAPD Academy, and then spend a couple of years patrolling East LA and Watts. Then report back.

Unless you're willing to do that, you might want to tone down your insistence that you have all the answers. The only thing you've convinced anyone of here is the fact that you don't even know the real questions.

Having waded through this thread, I find this post to be very well composed and informative. I think it puts into perspective what you guys deal with day in/day out. Kudos, and thank you for what you do - you (and the majority of LEO's out there) have my respect.

Agreed. It goes both ways.

A bad haircut and wearing BDU's with a pocketful of challenge coins while talking about the thin blue line doesn't make it the military or separate a cop from other professions.

Policing is changing, just as it has in the past. Some will adapt, others will not. Life will go on.

Well, the OJ jury said he didn't do it either.

And juries only vote as to the evidence warranted a conviction beyond a reasonable doubt.

I'm just wondering when "cops" are going to stop providing service to neighborhoods or certain homes that are dwelling places for azzholes. Give service to those that are deserving and let Darwin take care of the rest.

Notice how everyone rioted after OJ was acquitted.... me either.

Thank you, I realize I ain't exactly your cup of tea but I wish the same for you and your family as well.

You would have to keep some on to enforce firearms laws to limit when, where, and how civilians could defend their own lives.

Harry. How many hours of job specific training should someone have to be a cop?


How many hours of class and practical time of job specific instruction is in a 4 year degree?

95% of those that tell cops "I pay your salary/wage." are losers on unemployment or SSI. So in reality you pay their wage.

We can't. In part due to statute, in part do to our contracual language that states we cannot refuse to provide service nor are we permitted to strike

Thank you for your service and we are lucky to have officers like you and Ladmarald Cates of Milwaukee willing to do anything to keep civilians in line.

Kindergarten all done now squirt...time to get ready for your photo with Santa?

Police refer to non-police as civilians to show they are not one in the same. Usually, the only time you will hear an officer mention any affiliation with non-police is when they are retiring and/or they are trying to build rapport after being unfairly placed on trial in federal court after they were forced to beat someone who was subdued, rape an offender, or other actions their department and local prosecutors supported them on.

Well that is a living fact in Josephine County Oregon...

Obama cut the O&C Funds, that this county and many other Oregon Counties had relied on for 50 plus years....

our county Sheriff's Office has gone from a budget of 15 million a year, down to around a million... there use to be 90 deputies on the Sheriff's Office... now there are TWO plus the Sheriff...
The budget for running the jail is pretty much gone...

its been going this way for 4 plus years...this county is the wild west, with criminals pretty much doing as they darn well please...

your house is broken into or your car, the sheriff's office will give you a sheet of paper to file a report on line, and then tell you they can't do a darn thing, even if you know who it is doing it...the police report is just a 'service' for your insurance company....

if you can actually get a sheriff's deputy to your home while it is happening, they can't even arrest the perp....they issue him a citation with a court date.. if he doesn't show up, they can't do anything about that either...they have no budget to detail anyone...

they keep bringing up tax referendums, but they keep getting voted down, because people don't want to have property taxes increase...

meth is rampant, both in use and distribution and manufacture, although heroine is even bigger over the past year...unemployment and welfare abuse is always high, but even moreso under the Obama Administration...

I had vandalism going on at my home for 4 nights in a row, and it was being caused by a neighbor who has plenty of money, but we think it is due to being a meth manufacturer....he's just a wacko...

The cops told me they couldn't do a thing about it even tho I knew who it was, and had seen him leaving his property at 4 in the morning and coming over to mine...

installed motion lights and when I him walking down his gravel driveway again at 4 Am and his electric gate opening, and then walking down my neighbor's gravel driveway, I stepped out of the darkness into the motion light, with an ADL Remington, and said out loud, that "Bob, You'd better get your ass out of here, before it gets some holes shot in it..."

he took off running back to his house and you could see his gate close.... he denied it was him, but not a darn thing has happened since that night....

so that is what life is like in a county with NO Police Force...

I'm glad I live in an isolated little neighborhood.. gets much worse....

In the last year I've had my fuel line cut on one vehicle with punks trying to drain the fuel out of it to go joy riding...when it was over at a friends house, when he borrowed it for a day..

another time I am sitting in my 4 Runner in broad day light, at the UPS parking lot.. I had received a call from a friend and since talking on the cell phone while driving is illegal in Oregon, I turned off the engine and took the phone call...
with me sitting right in the drivers seat, some 20 something head banger tries to break into the truck at 2 in the afternoon...he pissed his pants when he found out someone was in it....I pointed my finger at him like it was a gun, and he was so strung out he freaked and yelled don't shoot as he took off running...

I know plenty of people that have more adventures than that with the local criminals... and punk wannabes...

The_Real_Sherpeye....you're so full of achidt ypur eyes are Brown

Yep, your SO should have a $15 trillion per year budget and 90k deputies.

So who are the women that you vaguely mentioned as not only fighting, but also defeating, meth?

Well, a BA is 4 years taking summers off. The course should include mental health and psychology courses as it seems more and more police are getting involved in crimes were the defendants are ill.

Managerial skills and inter personal skills as well as I believe it's time for police to be considered white collar professionals and not blue collars beat cops.

No Union

And the money is there. This country wastes billions on stupid stuff and this can be properly funded.

I hope I am not out of line in saying there has been a drastic change in how police are viewed in communities and not just minority ones. I don't think this can be denied.

I am not saying this fixes everything. I am saying there is a problem and it should be addressed.

I know that police unions say there is no problem.

I know the majority of the public says there is a problem.

The truth is always somewhere in the middle.

I see things getting worse, and not just in minority areas.

I will honestly say to you I think it's a shame as the police are very important to every community.

Some will never like the police, I get that.

But I see an organization that needs a do over and some spiffing up and believe well educated and well trained employees are the way to go.

ABTW, I should have mentioned earlier that the 4 year degree should also include what's learned in police academy so that the degree allows one to enter law enforcement upon their graduation.

Just sherp.

1) What did I say that was not correct.

2) Why the snarky comments directed at me considering we both support the same police and other groups?

1) There are no problems with police period other than not receiving enough money, power, equipment, and immunity.

2) We need to have at least 6 officers per every 10 civilians to allow proper monitoring. Also those officers need budgets to pay at least some of those 10 to act as intelligence assets similar to how East Germany used to do it.

3) If you want to be able to look at police in the way you would have looked at them in decades past you need only outlaw video footage of what they are doing so we can get back to the word of the officer being Golden.

Answer my question. The question was not what do you think the courses should be. But how many years it takes for a BA degree

Did I not say 4 years?

Looks like he answered your question in his first sentence, but curious how you are going to entrap him so he seems to be supporting international drug trafficking, assassinations, and jaywalking.

And to be very clear, no more entering police academy with a GED or High School Diploma. 4 year College degree.

Sure once you are in LE there will always be on going training, as there is in my profession, but a BA to get in in the first place.

No, the OJ jury found him "not guilty" based on the lack of evidence to convict beyond a reasonable doubt. Far different from a finding of "he didn't do it".

To assert Zimmerman murdered the kid is to draw a conclusion based in emotion, not evidence, which is the only connection Zimmerman has to this thread in the first place.

A 4 year degree is not job specific. I have a 4 year in Cj and it's 3/5 useless.
We aren't healthcare providers. Everytjing we do when dealing with mental health issues is governed by statute.

Once again how many hours of job specific training should be required?

And did you notice that he put up that post with no amount of attempting to belittle anybody? He didn't brag on himself, either. Much different from most of the regular posters here.

"A 4 year degree is not job specific. I have a 4 year in Cj and it's 3/5 useless.
We aren't healthcare providers. Everytjing we do when dealing with mental health issues is governed by statute.

Once again how many hours of job specific training should be required? [/quote]"

Your premise of what is useless is your opinion but you are entitled to it.

A BA degree has an average mean of 120 to 124 credits needed for graduation.

That's a very standard requirement.

There are many courses and certainly courses could evolve based of needs and issues as they are today.

http://education-portal.com/articles/Bachelor_of_Science_BS_Law_Enforcement_Degree_Overview.html

What more your are looking for I don't know unless you wish to engage in semantics and brow beating, and I don't fall for red herrings either.

What if you can't get your quota of minorities and
females? You lower the standards, of course.

No, he did not.

Harry M, did you watch the trial of George Zimmerman on teeeveee?

I did, or at least 99% of it.

There was no proof whatsoever that Zimmerman shot Martin in other than a self defense necessity.

L.W.

"

Your premise of what is useless is your opinion but you are entitled to it.

A BA degree has an average mean of 120 to 124 credits needed for graduation.

That's a very standard requirement.

There are many courses and certainly courses could evolve based of needs and issues as they are today.

http://education-portal.com/articles/Bachelor_of_Science_BS_Law_Enforcement_Degree_Overview.html

What more your are looking for I don't know unless you wish to engage in semantics and brow beating, and I don't fall for red herrings either. [/quote]


I had most of those courses in college and again in the academy. And I guarantee you the time spent on each subject in the academy was in far greater depth than what we delved into them in College.

The simple fact is. A four year degree is useless to become a cop.

I'm all for education and have taken hundreds of hours of additional courses ranging from arson and narcotics to firearms and use of forces training.

By and far the most important things i've learned about doing this job initially came from my OJT period as a rookie.

You mention interpersonal skills. No class can teach that, you either have em or you don't.

You say that "the money is there". Well once again, you're wrong. Or agency is currently dealing with this very issue. The outlying municpalities that we provide police coverage for want more coverage, they DO NOT, however want to pay more tax money to get that coverage.

It isn't murder or any other crime if an officer does it. That also extends to family of police(as was the case with the son of a Sanford Officer forced to beat up a homeless guy a year or so before) or with those trying to get on with the PD which was the case with Zimmerman.

Again, I have no idea what happens in Massachusetts, but here's the trend in Utah. No one wants to pay higher taxes, the Legislature changed the retirement from 50% at 20 years to 35% at 25 years, starting pay is a joke ($16.21 with a BS or 4 years experience), you're damned if you do and damned if you don't, and they're wondering why people aren't beating down the doors? Your dream of requiring more and paying more is just that, a dream. The newest catch phrase is, do more with less with most agencies loosing ground in pay and benefits.

The stuff Seafire talks about in Josephine County Oregon is easily researched and is the gospel truth. Some counties have closed their jails and in some places if you call 911 after hours it goes to voicemail and you might get a call back the next day.

http://m.ksl.com/index/story/sid/30661934?mobile_direct=y

? [/quote]"

Your premise of what is useless is your opinion but you are entitled to it.

A BA degree has an average mean of 120 to 124 credits needed for graduation.

That's a very standard requirement.

[/quote]

My opinion is based on several years of actual Police experience.

Out of those 120-124 credits, how many do you think are core classes directly dealing with job scope of a cop?

How many are foo foo classes

Here's a hint. I've never used math above Highschool Algebra on the job

I've never used The Zooology class, or Geology class I took

I've never used anything from English Lit.

I'll grant that Psychology classes can be helpful, especially to people already working in specialized investigation units and such. But the average patrol cop, not so much

The skills learned in Frisbee class haven't really been required, not has the skills I learned in intro to sport hunting

If you would, please tell us about your experience as a LEO?, and instructor

Weapons, authority, immunity, and practically every officer in the nation similarly equipped and backing you no matter what you do are a more than adequate substitute for personal skills.

The average pay for police officers in MA is ~81K

And if your aunt had balls she'd be your uncle.

Maybe it has something to do with them breaking the law?

How was your trip to see Santa? Did he bounce you on his lap?

Once again, you're wrong. A quick search turned up the average mean salary for patrol officers and Deputies in Ma. As $55,580

State Trooper 81K average

http://www.hobokenpolice.org/law-en...ry-massachusetts-state-trooper-make.html

Boston is a bit out of control so take it with a grain of salt

http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2010/05/06/police_pay_can_exceed_250k/

That doesn't change that you were wrong you stated that the average pay for police officers in Ma was 81K a year. That statement suggests the average for All police officers. Not from one Agency

http://government-pay.findthebest.com/l/1195/Police-Officers-Only

And the median income of a patrol officer is 56K a year

Remember that they only report "base ranges" not actual W2's.

Yep, just like Seafire said, Obama went out of his way to destroy that sheriff's office:

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/2008-02-23-antidrugfunds_N.htm

"Sheriffs brace for cut in anti-drug funds
Posted 2/23/2008"

"Sheriff Gil Gilbertson of Josephine County in southwest Oregon said pending cuts in Byrne money and in federal
payments made to counties to offset the loss of timber revenues have essentially disbanded the Josephine
Interagency Narcotics Team (JOINT).
"We've just withdrawn from JOINT," he said. "There's no funding. And we know the (Mexican) cartels are at
work."
The Bush administration has argued that the program should end because crime is down and the money is needed
elsewhere. That assessment clashes with reports from many states of record hauls of drugs, especially
methamphetamine and marijuana, and increased activity by drug gangs."

Read em', don't read em' up to you.


http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/12/01/are-college-educated-police-safer.html

http://www.lawenforcementtoday.com/2013/08/26/should-leos-have-a-college-degree/

http://www.psmag.com/legal-affairs/cops-and-college-do-police-need-book-smarts-21852/

http://www.policechiefmagazine.org/...h&article_id=722&issue_id=102005

Here's a site that actually has references and not a "this site is under development"

http://www.indeed.com/salary/q-Police-Officer-l-Massachusetts.html

Again, shows the median income around 55K

That information is so bogus! When stating officer salary they always include the value of health insurance, retirement pay accrued, not having to pay fines/court/insurance costs associated with 10 high speed tickets per week, and similar other benefits. The actual officer pay is less than waiter/waitress minimum wage and then taxes are taken out of that.

Very, very difficult to get anything more out of them that the listed min/mean/max in the contracts. The W2's tell the real story, at least here.

http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2012/02/data_from_salary_database_of_m.html

The problem with that is that it doesn't break down base salary and overtime pay

I have a friend who is a road trooper and works double shifts and every Holliday. He makes around 150K a year but his base salary is around 63K his OT, Holiday and Shift diff. Make up the rest.

http://theden.tv/2014/01/07/theres-something-about-josephine-county-oregon/

This is what its like with no police protection...

in fact, if anyone remembers, we hit the national news and even had an op ed by O'Reilly, when a local gal had her BF beat her up, and she called the cops on him for domestic abuses....

but since the county had no money to jail him, he was released and he promptly went back and killed her...

Most are complete control freaks...that's why they stay.

You could have just copied and pasted my post from above to show how bad things are and why.

Originally Posted By: GreatWaputi
Originally Posted By: Seafire


Obama cut the O&C Funds, that this county and many other Oregon Counties had relied on for 50 plus years....


The stuff Seafire talks about in Josephine County Oregon is easily researched and is the gospel truth.





Yep, just like Seafire said, Obama went out of his way to destroy that sheriff's office:

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/2008-02-23-antidrugfunds_N.htm

"Sheriffs brace for cut in anti-drug funds
Posted 2/23/2008"

"Sheriff Gil Gilbertson of Josephine County in southwest Oregon said pending cuts in Byrne money and in federal
payments made to counties to offset the loss of timber revenues have essentially disbanded the Josephine
Interagency Narcotics Team (JOINT).
"We've just withdrawn from JOINT," he said. "There's no funding. And we know the (Mexican) cartels are at
work."
The Bush administration has argued that the program should end because crime is down and the money is needed
elsewhere. That assessment clashes with reports from many states of record hauls of drugs, especially
methamphetamine and marijuana, and increased activity by drug gangs."