Congrats to Kassandra. The rifle and scope are highly tuned machines that certainly show what they are capable of. A video version of "Busting the Magnum Myth"?
My home is the "sanctuary residence" for my firearms.
I'm impressed, tell me more about the scope. Must have had turrets.
NRA LIFE MEMBER GOD BLESS OUR TROOPS ESPECIALLY THE SNIPERS! "Suppose you were an idiot And suppose you were a member of Congress... But I repeat myself." -Mark Twain
Well, I guess that answers the question on whether or not a 25-06 is enough for elk. If I hadn't watched it, I wouldn't of believed it.
Yes! It dispels the need for magnum cartridges once again. And it shows what a finely tuned high end equipment is capable is doing. Who among us would attempt that shot with an over the counter .243 with an average 3-9 power scope?
My home is the "sanctuary residence" for my firearms.
Guy from Bama is the worlds foremost authority on western Elk hunting...right
"What country can preserve it's liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance. Let them take arms." (Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, Dec. 20, 1787)
Well you - or someone else obviously worked with her so she made a heck of a shot. Betting she remembers that for a lifetime!
Don't think I could make that shot right now - caliber be damned.
Met John at the wyoming 24hc gathering...he took 6-7 of us out and we were all hitting 600, 700 then 1100 yds...no issues...probably the same .243 in the vid.
"What country can preserve it's liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance. Let them take arms." (Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, Dec. 20, 1787)
Well you - or someone else obviously worked with her so she made a heck of a shot. Betting she remembers that for a lifetime!
Don't think I could make that shot right now - caliber be damned.
Met John at the wyoming 24hc gathering...he took 6-7 of us out and we were all hitting 600, 700 then 1100 yds...no issues...probably the same .243 in the vid.
Tom, That was the same .243 Win you and the other guys shot at the gathering in Wyoming. Still seems to shoot OK.
Originally Posted by TannerGun
Jeeeezusss. I'm a believer. John what do you start the VLDs at?
TG, 3050fps.
Originally Posted by teal
Curious - what was the windage call? Sounded like it was blowing some but hard to say - microphone could be making it sound worse than it was.
Teal, Where we were setup there was a left to right gusting to about 10mph. In the video you can see the wind in the notch was running the opposite (right to left) from the elks breath.
I figured she would need 2 MOA at the top and told her to hold right in the middle of the elk. If you listen to the wind it drops and the vapor from the elk�s breath drops down right before she shoots. Right before the shot we change to hold to right behind the shoulder and got about 1 MOA of left to right drift.
Originally Posted by Steelhead
I'd have used dots and a Core-lokt.... Nice
She was good enough to do it even with substandard equipment.
Originally Posted by shrapnel
I have one question, did you do that with a fixed 6X scope???
Originally Posted by Royce
John Shame on you for using a 243 on elk- What would you have done if that young lady had had to take a long shot??
Would have snuck closer. I had my camo on.
Originally Posted by AlabamaEd
[Little more than stunt shooting and certainly can't be called hunting by any means. Not something to be proud of.
Well I was proud of her. You have yourself a nice day, Ed.
John Burns
I have all the sources. They can't stop the signal.
every dog has it's day. obviously a spine or head hit. i am a long time elk hunter. don't see whats so special about this. could have just as easily wounded the elk. rather have seen all the misses included in the other two " set-ups "
every dog has it's day. obviously a spine or head hit. i am a long time elk hunter. don't see whats so special about this. could have just as easily wounded the elk. rather have seen all the misses included in the other two " set-ups "
Doin is better than guessin..
"What country can preserve it's liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance. Let them take arms." (Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, Dec. 20, 1787)
every dog has it's day. obviously a spine or head hit. i am a long time elk hunter. don't see whats so special about this. could have just as easily wounded the elk. rather have seen all the misses included in the other two " set-ups "
Well that was the first and only shot she has ever fired at a big game animal. Wish I had her record.
I never figured out guys who wanted to see others fail more than they wanted to see success but you are proof such people exist.
Congratulations???
John Burns
I have all the sources. They can't stop the signal.
You and your friends use the Berger VLDs a lot so I have a question about them working up close. If a cow had presented itself at 25 yards would you still had her shoot high shoulder or would you have her shoot it behind the shoulder?
I am thinking about getting 150 grain .277 Bergers VLD perking in my heavy, very accurate old .270 and where I hunt I am just as likely to shoot at real short range as mid-range 3-400 (to you) distances.
Congrats to the young lady, she put the bullet exactly where it needed to be.
Very neatly done John and hunter. Darn it, now I want to sell my '06's and get told by the experts here that a new .243 won't work. Heck, even that might be fun. E
every dog has it's day. obviously a spine or head hit. i am a long time elk hunter.
You are obviously someone who hasn't read anything about new bullets in the last twenty years. I think JB would have told us if the spine had been severed when the animal was dressed out. Bergers produce what you saw in that video more often than any other bullet.
A very experienced shooter was the one to attempt this shot, and to determine the yardage, set the scope, dope the wind...all by herself. BUT....
While Mr. Burns, the guide, did an admirable job, the shooter didn't determine yardage, or set the scope on her own calculation, or dope the wind, and what did she learn to be able to consistently do a shot like this again, or even 80% of the time?
No mention from the guide, either, on practicing this 300-400 rounds or so, before trying it in the field.
While that 105 VLD did it this time, it ain't much of a bullet statistically out of a 243 at near 800 yards to do it 10 times out of 10, or even 5 times out of 10 in a very experienced hand with those yardages and wind conditions.
Read what Greg Rodriguez of Shooting Times magazine has to say of this type of shooting, with far larger calibers than the .243. And, he never met AlabamaEd.
Great video. It amazes me how many people will tell you what they just saw can't be done, and the reasons why. Tim Tebow can't win in the NFL either.
Ya it can be done although the vid appears to be shopped. Not common hunting practices and clearly something for the antis. questionable activities like this are para ethical, just because it is legal and can be done doesn't mean it is right to do it. Clearly not common or a responsible hunting practices nor generally acceptable.
Beware of thieves, scammers and dishonest members on the "Fire" classifieds. Ya there is a thief here too. Whatever!!
BS. If the shot was 350, and the elk died, would that have been acceptable to you? How about 250? How about 450?
And I have a news flash--the anti's don't think a 30 yard shot is acceptable either, so why do people always worry about what the anti's have to say, and use that as a rationale for what's acceptable?
Almost forgot, congrats to the young lady, and especially to JB for getting her the first big game animal.
Well I won't say this CAN'T be done, as it obviously can, but I would have to ask was there no way to get closer. The thing I personally don't like about this type of "hunting", is that it encourages people to try this type of shot, just to see if they can do it. I have no doubt Mr. Burns is capable of making this shot, but what about the people that can't hit a pie plate at 200 yds. I think there are far more people who Can't make that shot, than those who can. Those are the people I worry about trying that shot and failing, causing a miss at best, or a wounded animal at worst. YMMV
Is the life of an Elk/Deer more worthy than a groundhog/prairie dog? Most would not consider taking a shot at them unless it was a fun (hundreds of yards) distance. What is it that we are protesting here? Just sayin...
Personally speaking I think the life of a game animal is more worthy than a groundhog. This statement is exactly what I'm talking about. Hey there's an elk at 700 yds. lets see if I can hit it. If I mess up and wound the elk, so what, I'll see another one later. Come'on folks, that [bleep] ain't right and you know it. If your expert enough to make that shot, fine. If not you have no business shooting.
Personally speaking I think the life of a game animal is more worthy than a groundhog. This statement is exactly what I'm talking about. Hey there's an elk at 700 yds. lets see if I can hit it. If I mess up and wound the elk, so what, I'll see another one later. Come'on folks, that [bleep] ain't right and you know it. If your expert enough to make that shot, fine. If not you have no business shooting.
For me the bold portion applies regardless of what range the animal is at...YMMV.
Personally speaking I think the life of a game animal is more worthy than a groundhog. This statement is exactly what I'm talking about. Hey there's an elk at 700 yds. lets see if I can hit it. If I mess up and wound the elk, so what, I'll see another one later. Come'on folks, that [bleep] ain't right and you know it. If your expert enough to make that shot, fine. If not you have no business shooting.
For me the bold portion applies regardless of what range the animal is at...YMMV.
I agree with that 100%. I have no problem with experts taking long shots, it's the people that think if he can do that with a 243, just think what I should be able to do with my 7mm Ultra Mag.
Personally speaking I think the life of a game animal is more worthy than a groundhog. This statement is exactly what I'm talking about. Hey there's an elk at 700 yds. lets see if I can hit it. Is that what you would do? If not why would you think others would do the same? Because they saw it on TV? jstall, you set yourself up as being morally superior, and compared to others, almost self righteous if you get my drift.. Personally I wouldn't take that shot because I don't have the trigger time at long range.. But you only have my word for that.. If I mess up and wound the elk, so what, I'll see another one later. Come'on folks, that [bleep] ain't right and you know it. If your expert enough to make that shot, fine. If not you have no business shooting.
How in the world did you come up with that from what I posted? I am no part of self righteous. I clearly stated if you are CAPABLE of making that shot ,fine. There are people that see that stuff on TV and think because some people can do it, that they should be able to do it, and that's just not true. I personally would not take that shot either, because like you, I don't have the trigger time at those ranges.
There are people that see that stuff on TV and think because some people can do it, that they should be able to do it, and that's just not true.
The problerm is with those people, not the guy who can and does make the shot.
Originally Posted by jstall
.....but what about the people that can't hit a pie plate at 200 yds. I think there are far more people who Can't make that shot, than those who can.
I'd agree with that, yet there are those who would say a 250 yard shot is "ethical" and a 750 yard shot is "unethical."
Ethical is the distance at which you can place the bullet reliably and make a clean kill. Some can do it at 750, and because others can't, the others label it "unethical" and it's not.
I am not expert enough to make that shot. If I were being mentored/coached by someone who had those skills and they were confident in me, the conditions, the equiptment and were there talking me through the shot maybe. I would prabably say "Hey; look at those Elk!" "How can we get closer?" It does'nt change the fact that there are people who can do this and it is how they choose to hunt. It is fun. At the end of the day we are a bunch of guys who like to wear our hunting clothes, mess with our gadgets, argue scopes/rifles/calibers, roam the woods where others won't go (hopefully) wishing that we could do this everyday, eat on a tailgate or by a fire, spend an hour the night before trying to decide which socks, pants, boots, gloves, coat, hat to wear, and stand leaning at the back of a truck with other hunters yacking because it is fun. Deer camp we pretend for a week that the most important thing in life is pursuing deer. It is fun.
Cripes sakes she made the shot! By extension with Burns as a spotter / coach she is fully CAPABLE to make the shot.. Neither you nor I know how long that she may have practiced shooting long range.. The jerks that would take that shoot without any long range practice don't need the TV to enable them! Hell I have a dumb [bleep] neighbor who 32 years ago took a shot at a Ram at what he est. to be 500yds.. I know for a fact he has never shot on paper past 100yds.. He did all that without seeing it on TV!
Knowing what my 6mmRem is capable of(shot a 5.398" 5 shot group @600yds last year)and knowing the distance Id have taken the shot, too. You gotta have the confidence to make a shot like that. A spotter doesnt hurt, either.
Nice shooting young lady! Whats the rifle look like? Total custom job or.....? The recipe for the load?? Scope?
Huh?? Where have you been?
I just read the whole thread now, still didnt see anything about the rifle, load, scope, fill me in pls. Oh, Id have used my 6mm and 105AMAXs, hehe
I would have thought that you would know about Greybull Precision since they sponsor the Custom Rifles & Wildcats Forum.. I see now that you only joined this site in May of this year (789 posts already?) so you must have missed the welcoming committee rants about his over priced rifles and stupid custom LR scopes... I am surpised Burns doesn't give it up, as he must know by now that he is not welcome around here...
People wound more animals at close range every year I'm SURE than John has ever seen wounded and not recovered at long range. Seems like "ethical" is all relative on your shooter. Just my 2 cents.
I would like to ask, if recomending an elk rifle to someone, what caliber would you choose? The reason I ask is because it seems like there are 2 extremes and the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. It seems like some gunwriters want a 338 magnum of some sort and others say a 243/6mm is more than enough. What do ya'll think?
.270, .280, 30-06 etc. Ilove to fish for spotail bass (redfish) and I would recommend a medium heavy rod with 12- 20 lbs test line, but I use a light spinning outfit with 6 lbs line because it makes it more challenging. That makes it fun for me. But I could see it as more challenging to get closer to elk also. But I don't know the reason why they didnt in the video.
While that 105 VLD did it this time, it ain't much of a bullet statistically out of a 243 at near 800 yards to do it 10 times out of 10, or even 5 times out of 10 in a very experienced hand with those yardages and wind conditions.
I am interested in the �statistics� you speak of concerning the .243 Win/105 VLD. Could you post findings as your �statistics� are contrary to mine? I have only seen a dozen or so elk killed with the 243 Win/105 VLD so my sample is not overly large.
The 243 Win/105 VLD is a proven elk killer in the hands of a decent shooter. While this is getting out to edge of my comfort level with the combo another friend of mine killed her bull elk this year at 760yds with one shot through the shoulder.
Originally Posted by BuckeyeSpecial
Read what Greg Rodriguez of Shooting Times magazine has to say of this type of shooting, with far larger calibers than the .243. And, he never met AlabamaEd.
I was not aware you spoke for Greg or that he has a problem with my video. As he is a forum member here did you have a discussion with him over PM?
Originally Posted by AlabamaEd
Originally Posted by Moses
Great video. It amazes me how many people will tell you what they just saw can't be done, and the reasons why. Tim Tebow can't win in the NFL either.
Ya it can be done although the vid appears to be shopped.
AlabamaEd,
You sure are a peach.
John Burns
I have all the sources. They can't stop the signal.
Do you tell your shooters to aim for high shoulder? Out of the ones you've seen killed, what was the "worst" angle the animal was at? Do you have any limitations? (like no head on shots, etc)
(I have a box of them and plan on loading them up for deer hunting)
Personally speaking I think the life of a game animal is more worthy than a groundhog. This statement is exactly what I'm talking about. Hey there's an elk at 700 yds. lets see if I can hit it. If I mess up and wound the elk, so what, I'll see another one later. Come'on folks, that [bleep] ain't right and you know it. If your expert enough to make that shot, fine. If not you have no business shooting.
Nice shooting young lady! Whats the rifle look like? Total custom job or.....? The recipe for the load?? Scope?
Huh?? Where have you been?
I just read the whole thread now, still didnt see anything about the rifle, load, scope, fill me in pls. Oh, Id have used my 6mm and 105AMAXs, hehe
I would have thought that you would know about Greybull Precision since they sponsor the Custom Rifles & Wildcats Forum.. I see now that you only joined this site in May of this year (789 posts already?) so you must have missed the welcoming committee rants about his over priced rifles and stupid custom LR scopes... I am surpised Burns doesn't give it up, as he must know by now that he is not welcome around here...
Id have more posts than that but I forget my old username. So if I go to Greybull theyll have all the info there? Not that it matters, Im sure she was using Leupold scope, Mcmillan stock, of course that godawful 243Winny, maybe a PacNor barrel mated to a Remington action? All hideous things for sure.
The shot was made and was successful; this is indisputable. Many people like to hunt this way and, I suppose, it's OK. I do not. I would not even attempt such a shot though I am fairly certain I could make it. I shoot quite a bit at long range and I have a half dozen "F" class rifles in the vault but I'm one of those guys who doesn't remember the "X" I fired nearly as vividly as I remember the "8" that should have been an "X". I shoot a lot at 6 inch plates. If I can't ALWAYS hit that plate, I'm not likely to take such a shot at an animal. I have occasionally missed the plate at 400 meters so I'll always want to be closer than that. That's just my choice. In the end it just shows we all have our own ideas as to what is "right". GD
You try a Greybull stock and you'll spit on anything H&S makes. He got the ergonomics dead nuts on that stock. Also, I don't believe he has any former FBI assassins in his employ.
While that 105 VLD did it this time, it ain't much of a bullet statistically out of a 243 at near 800 yards to do it 10 times out of 10, or even 5 times out of 10 in a very experienced hand with those yardages and wind conditions.
I am interested in the �statistics� you speak of concerning the .243 Win/105 VLD. Could you post findings as your �statistics� are contrary to mine? I have only seen a dozen or so elk killed with the 243 Win/105 VLD so my sample is not overly large.
The 243 Win/105 VLD is a proven elk killer in the hands of a decent shooter. While this is getting out to edge of my comfort level with the combo another friend of mine killed her bull elk this year at 760yds with one shot through the shoulder.
Originally Posted by BuckeyeSpecial
Read what Greg Rodriguez of Shooting Times magazine has to say of this type of shooting, with far larger calibers than the .243. And, he never met AlabamaEd.
I was not aware you spoke for Greg or that he has a problem with my video. As he is a forum member here did you have a discussion with him over PM?
Originally Posted by AlabamaEd
Originally Posted by Moses
Great video. It amazes me how many people will tell you what they just saw can't be done, and the reasons why. Tim Tebow can't win in the NFL either.
Ya it can be done although the vid appears to be shopped.
AlabamaEd,
You sure are a peach.
Mr. Burns:
You seemed to miss my point(s)...the 105 gr. 243 bullet has approximately 600lbs. of energy left at 700 yards [presuming the 3100 FPS Maximum velocity at the muzzle: source Nosler #4 Manual].
That isn't enough energy to kill CONSISTENTLY at that range.
Yes, one can HIT the target - like a steel gong - at that range, but that's not what I am talking about. I am pointing out that killing consistently is not likely, and is more UNLIKELY, using 600 lbs of energy.
The statistics I am referring to is the probability of any shooter doing so with that respective bullet at that respective range and respective impact velocity for 10 of 10 or even 5 of 10 attempts. It's NOT discussing using the .243 at ANY i.e. shorter range(s) to kill elk; we are discussing it's use at 700 yards...
One or two kills, are case studies, and not a controlled study.
A controlled study, typically with an N=30 or more, will allow for statistical significance , or no significance. So, even 10 consecutive kills is not sufficient for subjecting data to a t-test for significance. A survey of hunters [30 or more] who have done the above, not excluding the misses and wounded eld i.e. including them, will need to be conducted and the data sujected to analysis for significance.
Do you see where we are going...? (No GPS or range finder needed.)
In other words, if you have them, post 10 more consecutive elk kill videos from the same shooter with the same range and the same bullet. Then get 20 more, or a few less. Then, we look at analysis.
And, NO, I don't speak for Mr. Rodriguez, he spoke for himself in his recent article on limits to long range hunting (and NOT with small[er] calibers such as the .243.
I would be remiss if you have access to a better protocol than the Optimum Game Weight Formula (OGW) re lbs of energy need for consistent kills, then please introduce it. The OGW is proven superior to the Taylor Knockdown formula; neither one is perfect or without exception. However, statistics is about the rule and the exception...and what happens the most typically is the rule.
A controlled study, typically with an N=30 or more, will allow for statistical significance , or no significance. So, even 10 consecutive kills is not sufficient for subjecting data to a t-test for significance. A survey of hunters [30 or more] who have done the above, not excluding the misses and wounded eld i.e. including them, will need to be conducted and the data sujected to analysis for significance.
Do you see where we are going...? (No GPS or range finder needed.)
In other words, if you have them, post 10 more consecutive elk kill videos from the same shooter with the same range and the same bullet. Then get 20 more, or a few less. Then, we look at analysis.
The way I see it, you're the one making the assertions here, namely that the cartridge/bullet/shooter is inadequate to consistently kill elk at a given distance.
So the way I see it, it's up to you to provide data to support your assertion, not the other way around.
So where's your data?
Also, the way I see it, whether Burns has 10 kills to his credit or one kill to his credit, those are data points and you have zero data points. If Burns has less than a sample of 30 (10), and you want to call his data statistically insignificant, what do you call your data set with zero data points?
Besides, what are your credentials as a long-range hunting or precision shooting expert? Aren't you the one who opined on another thread that choosing the right sized bushing for a bushing die depended on the diameter of the "chamber's respective neck size??" I've only been re-loading for a few years, but even I could see the error in that.
Originally Posted by BuckeyeSpecial
Likely the most benefit withe Redding Neck Bushing Dies as they accomplish just the right amount of neck sizing once you have determined your chamber's respective neck size; this allows for longer case life, consistent neck tension, a more exact fit, thus better accuracy [in theory].
What the hell does foot pounds of enrgy have to do with anything? I mean why even mention FE
Well Bowhunters are obviously unethical too..
"What country can preserve it's liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance. Let them take arms." (Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, Dec. 20, 1787)
At 688 yards, the 105 started at 3100 would be at 1900 fps.
For a control group, maybe someone should shoot some elk or elk-sized animals at 50 yards with some of that ammo loaded at 1900 fps.
Of course not all should be shot in the same place. Some in the shoulder blade, some in the heart/lungs, some a little far back to simulate the possibility of not being able to judge the wind perfectly.
At 688, a 200 grainer out of a .300 WM started at 2900 would be traveling at the same velocity as the .243 caliber 105 grain bullet; 1900.
Maybe load some up at 1900 and shoot the same test at 50 yards.
Compare results?
Originally Posted by Bristoe
The people wringing their hands over Trump's rhetoric don't know what time it is in America.
While that 105 VLD did it this time, it ain't much of a bullet statistically out of a 243 at near 800 yards to do it 10 times out of 10, or even 5 times out of 10 in a very experienced hand with those yardages and wind conditions.
I am interested in the “statistics” you speak of concerning the .243 Win/105 VLD. Could you post findings as your “statistics” are contrary to mine? I have only seen a dozen or so elk killed with the 243 Win/105 VLD so my sample is not overly large.
The 243 Win/105 VLD is a proven elk killer in the hands of a decent shooter. While this is getting out to edge of my comfort level with the combo another friend of mine killed her bull elk this year at 760yds with one shot through the shoulder.
Originally Posted by BuckeyeSpecial
Read what Greg Rodriguez of Shooting Times magazine has to say of this type of shooting, with far larger calibers than the .243. And, he never met AlabamaEd.
I was not aware you spoke for Greg or that he has a problem with my video. As he is a forum member here did you have a discussion with him over PM?
Originally Posted by AlabamaEd
Originally Posted by Moses
Great video. It amazes me how many people will tell you what they just saw can't be done, and the reasons why. Tim Tebow can't win in the NFL either.
Ya it can be done although the vid appears to be shopped.
AlabamaEd,
You sure are a peach.
Mr. Burns:
You seemed to miss my point(s)...the 105 gr. 243 bullet has approximately 600lbs. of energy left at 700 yards [presuming the 3100 FPS Maximum velocity at the muzzle: source Nosler #4 Manual].
That isn't enough energy to kill CONSISTENTLY at that range.
Yes, one can HIT the target - like a steel gong - at that range, but that's not what I am talking about. I am pointing out that killing consistently is not likely, and is more UNLIKELY, using 600 lbs of energy.
The statistics I am referring to is the probability of any shooter doing so with that respective bullet at that respective range and respective impact velocity for 10 of 10 or even 5 of 10 attempts. It's NOT discussing using the .243 at ANY i.e. shorter range(s) to kill elk; we are discussing it's use at 700 yards...
One or two kills, are case studies, and not a controlled study.
A controlled study, typically with an N=30 or more, will allow for statistical significance , or no significance. So, even 10 consecutive kills is not sufficient for subjecting data to a t-test for significance. A survey of hunters [30 or more] who have done the above, not excluding the misses and wounded eld i.e. including them, will need to be conducted and the data sujected to analysis for significance.
Do you see where we are going...? (No GPS or range finder needed.)
In other words, if you have them, post 10 more consecutive elk kill videos from the same shooter with the same range and the same bullet. Then get 20 more, or a few less. Then, we look at analysis.
And, NO, I don't speak for Mr. Rodriguez, he spoke for himself in his recent article on limits to long range hunting (and NOT with small[er] calibers such as the .243.
I would be remiss if you have access to a better protocol than the Optimum Game Weight Formula (OGW) re lbs of energy need for consistent kills, then please introduce it. The OGW is proven superior to the Taylor Knockdown formula; neither one is perfect or without exception. However, statistics is about the rule and the exception...and what happens the most typically is the rule.
I for one, never pull the trigger without first consulting the proper case study.
It is obvious a 243 can kill an elk, but that doesn't mean it isn't a stunt especially at long range. If a 243 is the end all, then why does Mr. Burns himself offer larger chamberings?
It is obvious a 243 can kill an elk, but that doesn't mean it isn't a stunt especially at long range. If a 243 is the end all, then why does Mr. Burns himself offer larger chamberings?
Cause their are doubters willing to spend moolah????
"What country can preserve it's liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance. Let them take arms." (Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, Dec. 20, 1787)
It is obvious a 243 can kill an elk, but that doesn't mean it isn't a stunt especially at long range. If a 243 is the end all, then why does Mr. Burns himself offer larger chamberings?
Perhaps I missed it but, where did Burns or anyone else say that the 243 is the end all?
Dober
"True respect starts with the way you treat others, and it is earned over a lifetime of demonstrating kindness, honor and dignity"....Tony Dungy
It is obvious a 243 can kill an elk, but that doesn't mean it isn't a stunt especially at long range. If a 243 is the end all, then why does Mr. Burns himself offer larger chamberings?
Perhaps I missed it but, where did Burns or anyone else say that the 243 is the end all?
Dober
He didn't
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
I offer the following...If Buckeye thinks his "600" FPE is not enough for ELK @ 688 yds.... then he should feel totally comfortable standing in front of JB @ 1400 yds and the .243...it should just bounce off his LL Bean sweater.
"What country can preserve it's liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance. Let them take arms." (Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, Dec. 20, 1787)
If the lady has developed the skills to consistently make that shot on game including calculating all the dope and making the adjustments, I tip my hat.
If her involvement was just pressing the trigger, it was a stunt.
Forgive me my nonsense, as I also forgive the nonsense of those that think they talk sense. Robert Frost
If you think John Burns killing an elk at 688 yards with a 243 is a stunt, you oughta see the boys that go buy a 300 WSM because the gun mags are raving about it, puts a $700 scope on it, and shoots a half a box of shells trying to get it sighted in. Then, they shoot at every legal deer they see out to 800 yards, running or standing or in a herd. Now thats a stunt! Bet they wound more deer in one season than John Burns does in ten years.
If you think John Burns killing an elk at 688 yards with a 243 is a stunt, you oughta see the boys that go buy a 300 WSM because the gun mags are raving about it, puts a $700 scope on it, and shoots a half a box of shells trying to get it sighted in. Then, they shoot at every legal deer they see out to 800 yards, running or standing or in a herd. Now thats a stunt! Bet they wound more deer in one season than John Burns does in ten years.
Quit talking sense...it confuses those that have not BTDT...(note to say I have not shot a Cow Elk with a .243 from 688 yds) not that I wouldn't with the right setup and range time.
"What country can preserve it's liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance. Let them take arms." (Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, Dec. 20, 1787)
Burns didn't squeeze the trigger, but his knowledge made it happen.
I don't want to assume the lady wasn't involved or doesn't have the skill - I wasn't there. I'm not much of a rifle shooter, but odds are John Burns or lots of guys here could set me up with a doped rifle and I could make a shot far beyond anything I could do on my own. I'd call that a stunt as well.
Forgive me my nonsense, as I also forgive the nonsense of those that think they talk sense. Robert Frost
So... do you think I could poke a 200lb + buck in the chest with the 105vld at 500yds and not have a tracking nightmare on my hands? Anybody?
Different than hitting a deer with a .223 @ 200 yds how?...assuming by chest... you mean hit lungs or heart...
"What country can preserve it's liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance. Let them take arms." (Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, Dec. 20, 1787)
Determining how conditions will affect the bullet flight, and correcting for those things is a lot tougher. It requires in depth knowledge of exterior ballistics of the round used, as well as a lot of experience shooting LR in various conditions.
There's a reason "trigger monkey" is a common nickname in some two-man teams.
For a shooter like John Burns, figuring out a 688 yd shot is a VERY easy day.
Couldn't agree more...he had me and my gun on the money @ 600 yds 3 out of 3...then @ 700 ..then his @ 1100 ...
Doing trumps guessin every time...
"What country can preserve it's liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance. Let them take arms." (Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, Dec. 20, 1787)
It is obvious a 243 can kill an elk, but that doesn't mean it isn't a stunt especially at long range. If a 243 is the end all, then why does Mr. Burns himself offer larger chamberings?
Perhaps I missed it but, where did Burns or anyone else say that the 243 is the end all?
Dober
+1 Million. The guy forgot more about handling a rifle then I will ever hope to know. I for one will not sell every rifle I own and run out and buy a 243 because of that video. All that video shows is equipment used properly suffices at long range. In the real world cattle are killed with a bolt gun and how does that compare with a 243 ? That was one of the more humane elk kills I have seen at least on a video. My hat is off to Mr Burns and his Daughter. The only danger I see in the video is that some halfwit will run down to his local store buy all the equipment, sight it in at the 100 yard range and then think he is set for 1k.
I would have thought that you would know about Greybull Precision since they sponsor the Custom Rifles & Wildcats Forum.. I see now that you only joined this site in May of this year (789 posts already?) so you must have missed the welcoming committee rants about his over priced rifles and stupid custom LR scopes... I am surpised Burns doesn't give it up, as he must know by now that he is not welcome around here... [/quote]
Nrut- John is welcome here anytime! His knowledge is greatly appreciated by me and many others. If you don't like what he has to say don't read it or respond. Calvin- The 105VLD is an amazing 6mm bullet. Why not load some up and test it for yourself. I wouldnt hesitate to use it on a deer at 500.
Congrats to the young lady on a great shot and clean ethical kill.
While that 105 VLD did it this time, it ain't much of a bullet statistically out of a 243 at near 800 yards to do it 10 times out of 10, or even 5 times out of 10 in a very experienced hand with those yardages and wind conditions.
I am interested in the �statistics� you speak of concerning the .243 Win/105 VLD. Could you post findings as your �statistics� are contrary to mine? I have only seen a dozen or so elk killed with the 243 Win/105 VLD so my sample is not overly large.
The 243 Win/105 VLD is a proven elk killer in the hands of a decent shooter. While this is getting out to edge of my comfort level with the combo another friend of mine killed her bull elk this year at 760yds with one shot through the shoulder.
Originally Posted by BuckeyeSpecial
Read what Greg Rodriguez of Shooting Times magazine has to say of this type of shooting, with far larger calibers than the .243. And, he never met AlabamaEd.
I was not aware you spoke for Greg or that he has a problem with my video. As he is a forum member here did you have a discussion with him over PM?
Originally Posted by AlabamaEd
Originally Posted by Moses
Great video. It amazes me how many people will tell you what they just saw can't be done, and the reasons why. Tim Tebow can't win in the NFL either.
Ya it can be done although the vid appears to be shopped.
AlabamaEd,
You sure are a peach.
Mr. Burns:
You seemed to miss my point(s)...the 105 gr. 243 bullet has approximately 600lbs. of energy left at 700 yards [presuming the 3100 FPS Maximum velocity at the muzzle: source Nosler #4 Manual].
That isn't enough energy to kill CONSISTENTLY at that range.
Yes, one can HIT the target - like a steel gong - at that range, but that's not what I am talking about. I am pointing out that killing consistently is not likely, and is more UNLIKELY, using 600 lbs of energy.
The statistics I am referring to is the probability of any shooter doing so with that respective bullet at that respective range and respective impact velocity for 10 of 10 or even 5 of 10 attempts. It's NOT discussing using the .243 at ANY i.e. shorter range(s) to kill elk; we are discussing it's use at 700 yards...
One or two kills, are case studies, and not a controlled study.
A controlled study, typically with an N=30 or more, will allow for statistical significance , or no significance. So, even 10 consecutive kills is not sufficient for subjecting data to a t-test for significance. A survey of hunters [30 or more] who have done the above, not excluding the misses and wounded eld i.e. including them, will need to be conducted and the data sujected to analysis for significance.
Do you see where we are going...? (No GPS or range finder needed.)
In other words, if you have them, post 10 more consecutive elk kill videos from the same shooter with the same range and the same bullet. Then get 20 more, or a few less. Then, we look at analysis.
And, NO, I don't speak for Mr. Rodriguez, he spoke for himself in his recent article on limits to long range hunting (and NOT with small[er] calibers such as the .243.
I would be remiss if you have access to a better protocol than the Optimum Game Weight Formula (OGW) re lbs of energy need for consistent kills, then please introduce it. The OGW is proven superior to the Taylor Knockdown formula; neither one is perfect or without exception. However, statistics is about the rule and the exception...and what happens the most typically is the rule.
As I noted, Nosler #4 doesn't show that speed for a 105 gr. 243 bullet (I quoted the 100 grain Partition from Nosler) ....but if Berger says it is going that fast its news to me....2140 FPS for the Berger is what a 100 gr. Partition is doing at 400 yards.
The Berger bullet is moving nearly twice as far [allegedly] i.e. to 700 compared to the Partition speed at 400 yards...hmmm interesting physics.
Has anyone shot the Berger through a chronograph at 700 yards @ 5000 feet elev.to prove that? I mean, besides John Burns' crew...
While that 105 VLD did it this time, it ain't much of a bullet statistically out of a 243 at near 800 yards to do it 10 times out of 10, or even 5 times out of 10 in a very experienced hand with those yardages and wind conditions.
I am interested in the �statistics� you speak of concerning the .243 Win/105 VLD. Could you post findings as your �statistics� are contrary to mine? I have only seen a dozen or so elk killed with the 243 Win/105 VLD so my sample is not overly large.
The 243 Win/105 VLD is a proven elk killer in the hands of a decent shooter. While this is getting out to edge of my comfort level with the combo another friend of mine killed her bull elk this year at 760yds with one shot through the shoulder.
Originally Posted by BuckeyeSpecial
Read what Greg Rodriguez of Shooting Times magazine has to say of this type of shooting, with far larger calibers than the .243. And, he never met AlabamaEd.
I was not aware you spoke for Greg or that he has a problem with my video. As he is a forum member here did you have a discussion with him over PM?
Originally Posted by AlabamaEd
Originally Posted by Moses
Great video. It amazes me how many people will tell you what they just saw can't be done, and the reasons why. Tim Tebow can't win in the NFL either.
Ya it can be done although the vid appears to be shopped.
AlabamaEd,
You sure are a peach.
Mr. Burns:
You seemed to miss my point(s)...the 105 gr. 243 bullet has approximately 600lbs. of energy left at 700 yards [presuming the 3100 FPS Maximum velocity at the muzzle: source Nosler #4 Manual].
That isn't enough energy to kill CONSISTENTLY at that range.
Yes, one can HIT the target - like a steel gong - at that range, but that's not what I am talking about. I am pointing out that killing consistently is not likely, and is more UNLIKELY, using 600 lbs of energy.
The statistics I am referring to is the probability of any shooter doing so with that respective bullet at that respective range and respective impact velocity for 10 of 10 or even 5 of 10 attempts. It's NOT discussing using the .243 at ANY i.e. shorter range(s) to kill elk; we are discussing it's use at 700 yards...
One or two kills, are case studies, and not a controlled study.
A controlled study, typically with an N=30 or more, will allow for statistical significance , or no significance. So, even 10 consecutive kills is not sufficient for subjecting data to a t-test for significance. A survey of hunters [30 or more] who have done the above, not excluding the misses and wounded eld i.e. including them, will need to be conducted and the data sujected to analysis for significance.
Do you see where we are going...? (No GPS or range finder needed.)
In other words, if you have them, post 10 more consecutive elk kill videos from the same shooter with the same range and the same bullet. Then get 20 more, or a few less. Then, we look at analysis.
And, NO, I don't speak for Mr. Rodriguez, he spoke for himself in his recent article on limits to long range hunting (and NOT with small[er] calibers such as the .243.
I would be remiss if you have access to a better protocol than the Optimum Game Weight Formula (OGW) re lbs of energy need for consistent kills, then please introduce it. The OGW is proven superior to the Taylor Knockdown formula; neither one is perfect or without exception. However, statistics is about the rule and the exception...and what happens the most typically is the rule.
I'm not sure that you have a point. I that elk can't read and the FPE dpesn't impress them much, but a hole through their vitals does.
If you can read then ths might help you a bit
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
Do you tell your shooters to aim for high shoulder? Out of the ones you've seen killed, what was the "worst" angle the animal was at? Do you have any limitations? (like no head on shots, etc)
(I have a box of them and plan on loading them up for deer hunting)
At distance I always just go for the shoulder and mid way up the body. I do seem to get lucky as a percentage with DRTs from that shot. If the shot lands at or above mid line it is usually DRT, if the shot is below mid line then they may travel a short distance.
Biggest or maybe most common mistake is hitting to high if going for a high shoulder. If the bullet hits above the spine in the dorsal ridges the animal collapse but will regain it mobility.
The �worst angle� is the grizzly bear in the Greybull video at the top of the custom forum. I hit him behind the ribs raking forward and you can see the water blow off his shoulder from the impact. I think he ran about 40yds and started to sway. The next shot was as he was facing directly away and hit him in the center of the back, DRT. That was the 180gr VLD in a 7mm Mag.
I don�t have any qualms about head on shots other than the target is quite a bit smaller. VLDs work fine for those shots.
Originally Posted by archie_james_c
EDITED- Apology sent.
Originally Posted by jstall
Edited Apology accepted
Thanks guys for cleaning up the thread.
Originally Posted by 1minute
A bit of stretch for that caliber/cartridge in my book, but it looks like it worked.
Pretty fair assessment.
Originally Posted by MontanaMarine
Originally Posted by BuckeyeSpecial
.....the 105 gr. 243 bullet has approximately 600lbs. of energy left at 700 yards [presuming the 3100 FPS Maximum velocity at the muzzle.....
A 105gr Berger VLD at 3100 fps mv will retain about 2140 fps/1068 ft-lbs at 700 yards, at 5000' el.
Shane, Thanks. I suspect he doesn�t let the facts get in the way of a good emotional response.
Originally Posted by dogcatcher223
It is obvious a 243 can kill an elk, but that doesn't mean it isn't a stunt especially at long range. If a 243 is the end all, then why does Mr. Burns himself offer larger chamberings?
Dogcatcher223,
In addition to all the other good answers (Tom, Dober, JWP, teal) you have gotten I would add that I personally like a little more reach than 700yds when talking elk.
Originally Posted by Oldelkhunter
My hat is off to Mr Burns and his Daughter.
Thanks for the kind words but she is just a friend. I got to know her because we share some pasture. She has half a dozen horses and I keep my mules on the same place.
John Burns
I have all the sources. They can't stop the signal.
I would have thought that you would know about Greybull Precision since they sponsor the Custom Rifles & Wildcats Forum.. I see now that you only joined this site in May of this year (789 posts already?) so you must have missed the welcoming committee rants about his over priced rifles and stupid custom LR scopes... I am surpised Burns doesn't give it up, as he must know by now that he is not welcome around here...
Originally Posted by 805
Nrut- John is welcome here anytime! His knowledge is greatly appreciated by me and many others. If you don't like what he has to say don't read it or respond. Calvin- The 105VLD is an amazing 6mm bullet. Why not load some up and test it for yourself. I wouldnt hesitate to use it on a deer at 500.
Congrats to the young lady on a great shot and clean ethical kill.
Originally Posted by Nrut
805, I was being sarcastic! jeeze!
805 Thanks for the congrats and the nice comments. I did get that Nrut was just poking fun.
Last edited by JohnBurns; 12/06/11.
John Burns
I have all the sources. They can't stop the signal.
So, you've gone from guessing incorrectly about FPE, to making wild assertions as to whether someone else could/could not make that shot to a percentage that you pulled out of the air?
Now that the uproar has died a bit.... great vid, coaching,enabling and etc John Burns most impressive.Congrats to the lady on a fine shot. What I would like to know is what magnification do you use on shots like this and your antelope etc. Thinking I would like to set up a rifle for up to 1000 and shoot some steel build some skills at extended distance for just the fun of LR shooting. Magnum Man
Now that the uproar has died a bit.... great vid, coaching,enabling and etc John Burns most impressive.Congrats to the lady on a fine shot. What I would like to know is what magnification do you use on shots like this and your antelope etc. Thinking I would like to set up a rifle for up to 1000 and shoot some steel build some skills at extended distance for just the fun of LR shooting. Magnum Man
The optic is the 4.5-14 that Leupold builds for Greybull.
Originally Posted by 805
Nrut I apologize. I didn't detect that.
John your welcome. Again thanks for all the help on the stock. Just loaded some 105vld to test in my 243ai. What powder were you using?
Retumbo
Originally Posted by archie_james_c
John, how much time did the gal put in behind the rifle prior to taking her out hunting?
I think she dry fired it 3 or 4 time before we went out and another half dozen dry fires on the elk.
John Burns
I have all the sources. They can't stop the signal.
As I noted, Nosler #4 doesn't show that speed for a 105 gr. 243 bullet (I quoted the 100 grain Partition from Nosler) ....but if Berger says it is going that fast its news to me....2140 FPS for the Berger is what a 100 gr. Partition is doing at 400 yards.
The Berger bullet is moving nearly twice as far [allegedly] i.e. to 700 compared to the Partition speed at 400 yards...hmmm interesting physics.
Has anyone shot the Berger through a chronograph at 700 yards @ 5000 feet elev.to prove that? I mean, besides John Burns' crew...
Get a ballistic app on your brick phone..if you can...might help you in the learnin of ballistics...just guessin
"What country can preserve it's liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance. Let them take arms." (Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, Dec. 20, 1787)
Oh, she killed that elk, this time. You can too, and even me, sometimes....
My point is about doing it almost every time...say 9 of 10 attempts...not just hitting it 9 of 10, but killing it 9 of 10 at 700 yards.
So do you go after the weekend hunter that can hit an 8" plate at 100yds everytime...maybe? Or do you only go after the guy who can hit it @ 1000 every time?
"What country can preserve it's liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance. Let them take arms." (Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, Dec. 20, 1787)
After reading all his posts, I can't help but wonder if our pal Buckeye has ever shot a rifle at anything at any range before.
He sounds an awful lot like some PA and OH shotgun hunters I have talked to who just can't fathom the ability of a skilled rifleman with good equipment.
Member: Clan of the Turdlike People.
Courage is Fear that has said its Prayers
�If we ever forget that we are one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under.� Ronald Reagan.
John, how much time did the gal put in behind the rifle prior to taking her out hunting?
I think she dry fired it 3 or 4 time before we went out and another half dozen dry fires on the elk.
This is amazing, and not a "good" amazing. You let a gal with absolutely no experience shooting game with a rifle and furthermore, no experience shooting at that range at anything, take her first shot at a living big game animal?
We've disagreed before on cartridge choice and that's fine. I watched the video and saw the DRT performance of the choice. It wouldn't be my choice, but that's fine too. I have friends who have used the same combo for smaller big game at those ranges and swear by them. They happen to be some of the top competitive precision shooters in the country. I'm willing to accept that perfect placement will do the job.
But it's obvious that you are trying to prove something. It's even more obvious that you feel a steel target has the same value as any big game animal.
Twisted.
Originally Posted by Bristoe
The people wringing their hands over Trump's rhetoric don't know what time it is in America.
Haha so Buckeye do you take your calculator out into the field to quickly and quietly punch in the numbers and run it by the Taylor Knockout Factor and Optimum Game Weight?
John, how much time did the gal put in behind the rifle prior to taking her out hunting?
I think she dry fired it 3 or 4 time before we went out and another half dozen dry fires on the elk.
This is amazing, and not a "good" amazing. You let a gal with absolutely no experience shooting game with a rifle and furthermore, no experience shooting at that range at anything, take her first shot at a living big game animal?
Twisted.
Jumping to conclusions again I see
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
I wonder how many people here have actually killed an elk? Nobody is arguing it wasn't a good shot. There are those of use that have actually killed a lot of elk, and know how tough they are. Wonder how long it would take to catch up with a wounded elk, with a 700yd head start? Especially in that country...
It is obvious a 243 can kill an elk, but that doesn't mean it isn't a stunt especially at long range. If a 243 is the end all, then why does Mr. Burns himself offer larger chamberings?
Perhaps I missed it but, where did Burns or anyone else say that the 243 is the end all?
Dober
Bump^^^^^^^^for an answer
Dober
"True respect starts with the way you treat others, and it is earned over a lifetime of demonstrating kindness, honor and dignity"....Tony Dungy
I actually stuck up for this hunt on another forum, before reading this. I can't believe this young girl had never shot this rifle before. John you should be ashamed..
There are those of use that have actually killed a lot of elk, and know how tough they are
So thick skinned that a bow with 2 FPE can't take them down...right...let alone a 45-70...@ 20 yds....chit better have a howitzer @ 50 to make it sporting....laffin
do it or STFU
"What country can preserve it's liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance. Let them take arms." (Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, Dec. 20, 1787)
I actually stuck up for this hunt on another forum, before reading this. I can't believe this young girl had never shot this rifle before. John you should be ashamed..
NN180- Im gonna try and give the benifit of the doubt here and see what John has to say. But I'm starting to lean towards your point of view here.
And lets just say the flaming I got, and gave back was pretty ugly...I may have to eat a lot of crow here.
Boy lots of tight panties in here. MM has the best response so far, the one pulling the trigger is almost always the least experienced shooter, it is the spotters job to be ranging, reading wind and making the correct calls. The physical act of shooting a moderately heavy rifle from the prone is not some super athletic skill set.
I have a friend that I consider a poor shot, does not practice, has no idea of how to obtain a solid field rest and if he hits an 8" paper plate at 200yards 50% of the time with his rifle I would be suprised. While playing on the ranch he was impressed the way I was splattering stuff with my .243 running the 115Dtac and wanted a try. He dry fired a few times and then using the called comeups and windage hold he wiped out a crow at 435 yards and a second one over 550. Two one shot hits on something smaller than the vitals of that elk.
My brother in law is in his 30s and his last shots fired were from an air rifle in boy scouts. Set him up at the range and put him on a 6" plate at 400yards, had him dry fire a few to understand the concept of a trigger press, gave him a wind read and he pops the plate 2 for 2. He looked at me and said "so what is so hard about that", he switched to the 600yard plate I told him to guess on external ballistics and I let him chase his tail in a switching cross wind for a half dozen rounds before he looked over and said "I get it now". He quickly understood that the knowledge was far more important than the physical skill. I have coached a lot of new shooters over the years and if they willing to listen they can have fabulous results. When I got that particular .243 up and running I put it on paper at 100 with 3-4 rounds then jumped right to 1000yards on a plate. The next three rounds were under 8"and a little bit high because of a software problem, I did not compensate for the uphill shot and the 1000yard plate should have only needed data for about 970. Went back to 200yards and followed my JBM results and built a data table to 1200yards. I was blessed to have a very light 6 o'clock wind and from 200 yards out to about 1050 I would not have had a single round off of a 10" target.
For me ethics is a sum of whole. If the hunter had no experience behind this rifle, no knowledge of proper comeups and holds then slinging lead from any caliber at any distance is unethical. As it was shown here the physical component was solid as well as the information required to make the shot. Never met JB in my life but I think if he was looking at a shooter that could not get comfortable, was not sure of themselves or had a good dose of buck (bull?) fever he would have waved off the shot and looked for a fourth setup.
Last edited by varmintsinc; 12/06/11. Reason: clarity
Hunt hard, kill clean, waste nothing and offer no apologies.
"In rifle work, group size is of some interest...but it is well to remember that a rifleman does not shoot groups, he shoots shots." Jeff Cooper
I actually stuck up for this hunt on another forum, before reading this. I can't believe this young girl had never shot this rifle before. John you should be ashamed..
I think I already explained I feel pretty proud of how that all worked out.
It is possible that me calling her a �girl� in the title of the thread is somewhat misleading but it made me smile.
While this might have been her first big game animal she owns her own bird dogs and hunts upland game most every weekend.
The elk was hauled out of the hills in the back of her 1 ton dually truck. She owns a string of horses (including one of the better mannered stud horse I have ever been around) and tack (including pack saddles) and regularly rides alone in the exact area in which she killed the elk. She was ready to saddle up and pack that elk out of any hole it could find.
She owns her own .300 WSM.
She works 12 hr shifts in the QC dept of a company that makes cancer medicines and only has the weekends to hunt.
I did not �let� her shoot that elk. I simply told her what the gun would do and she made the decision understanding exactly what could go wrong.
What really makes me smile is how she performed so well in a situation that has a few, just a few, of you guys stumped.
An impartial observer might draw the conclusion her stellar performance has damaged a few fragile egos. I mean if a �girl� can do it ???
John Burns
I have all the sources. They can't stop the signal.
JB, Im will probably burn out this barrel running the Dtacs, do you have any experience with them on game? I have to run lead free for all of my big game but when I head out of state I not be saddled with that restriction.
Any significant reason for using the 105 vs 115 in the Berger line? Im running the 115 at about 2950fps, the 105 is generally not an option due to a 3000fps limit at the range to save the steel but its easy enough to run another load for game.
Hunt hard, kill clean, waste nothing and offer no apologies.
"In rifle work, group size is of some interest...but it is well to remember that a rifleman does not shoot groups, he shoots shots." Jeff Cooper
Thanks John for telling the whole story. This has helped clear up quite a bit of mis-information. (information you intentionally left out to spark up controversy?) After all, it's not an Internet thread without misinformation.
Just seems to me I'd have liked her to shoot the gun a bit first, but that's just me and my opinion, not you and yours.
John, how much time did the gal put in behind the rifle prior to taking her out hunting?
I think she dry fired it 3 or 4 time before we went out and another half dozen dry fires on the elk.
This is amazing, and not a "good" amazing. You let a gal with absolutely no experience shooting game with a rifle and furthermore, no experience shooting at that range at anything, take her first shot at a living big game animal?
Twisted.
Jumping to conclusions again I see
Sir, I was going to say the same thing. How do any of you know she did not grow up with a rifle in her hands?
John said she has a 300 WSM, maybe she shoots it at 700 yards every other day.
This was why I wanted to get a better picture of what was going on. Course all John said was "she hunts birds" and "owns a 300wsm", didn't say if she shoots the hell outta it, but he prolly thinks I'm trolling so he's laying out some bait
Boy lots of tight panties in here. MM has the best response so far, the one pulling the trigger is almost always the least experienced shooter, it is the spotters job to be ranging, reading wind and making the correct calls. The physical act of shooting a moderately heavy rifle from the prone is not some super athletic skill set.
I have a friend that I consider a poor shot, does not practice, has no idea of how to obtain a solid field rest and if he hits an 8" paper plate at 200yards 50% of the time with his rifle I would be suprised. While playing on the ranch he was impressed the way I was splattering stuff with my .243 running the 115Dtac and wanted a try. He dry fired a few times and then using the called comeups and windage hold he wiped out a crow at 435 yards and a second one over 550. Two one shot hits on something smaller than the vitals of that elk.
My brother in law is in his 30s and his last shots fired were from an air rifle in boy scouts. Set him up at the range and put him on a 6" plate at 400yards, had him dry fire a few to understand the concept of a trigger press, gave him a wind read and he pops the plate 2 for 2. He looked at me and said "so what is so hard about that", he switched to the 600yard plate I told him to guess on external ballistics and I let him chase his tail in a switching cross wind for a half dozen rounds before he looked over and said "I get it now". He quickly understood that the knowledge was far more important than the physical skill. I have coached a lot of new shooters over the years and if they willing to listen they can have fabulous results. When I got that particular .243 up and running I put it on paper at 100 with 3-4 rounds then jumped right to 1000yards on a plate. The next three rounds were under 8"and a little bit high because of a software problem, I did not compensate for the uphill shot and the 1000yard plate should have only needed data for about 970. Went back to 200yards and followed my JBM results and built a data table to 1200yards. I was blessed to have a very light 6 o'clock wind and from 200 yards out to about 1050 I would not have had a single round off of a 10" target.
For me ethics is a sum of whole. If the hunter had no experience behind this rifle, no knowledge of proper comeups and holds then slinging lead from any caliber at any distance is unethical. As it was shown here the physical component was solid as well as the information required to make the shot. Never met JB in my life but I think if he was looking at a shooter that could not get comfortable, was not sure of themselves or had a good dose of buck (bull?) fever he would have waved off the shot and looked for a fourth setup.
This is a good post by someone who clearly shoots a lot and knows it is no trick to hit from prone with a bipod,even to long distances;and calling conditions is most important of all.
I shot with John one afternoon in Wyoming, he making the "calls" for wind,comeups, etc,and he had three of us on rocks the size of elk vitals to 1200 yards(which to me looked like the next time zone).I was completely incredulous, never having shot so far at anything......When we switched to 800 yards it seemed somehow "easy"...so I know this gal was well coached.
John does not "guess" about this stuff.
What many can't get their head around is that little slip of a bullet killing that elk so quickly.I might feel the same if I had not dug so many 100 gr bullets from elk carcasses years back,killed with a 250 Savage by a pal in Wyoming.A 243 would not be my choice either, but I am not shocked the animals died quickly....
Sure, elk are tough(hit poorly with anything),but it only takes a few inches of penetration over the ribs to reach the lungs,and that 6mm bullet through lungs is a destructive force in soft tissue.No North American ungulate will survive it if placed close enough to where he "lives",ie heart/lungs destroyed.
Call me nuts, but i would rather have a calm inexperienced shooter than someone that thinks they know what they are doing. Reason is simple if they dont think they know what they are doing, they let you tell them what to do and how. I had my old 7 mag out busting rocks at 650. My neighbor thought it was cool and wanted to try. He had never shot beyond 100 yards. He listened well, let me talk him into the shot and listened. He hit the rocks and we went all the way to 750. It was fun and an education. Same gun but different shooter. Had my best friend out and i was busting rocks at 400 yards. He wanted to shoot my rifle so i let him. I told him what to set the scope on and how to hold. He kept missing. I grabbed the rifle and hit the rocks. Finally asked him what the deal was, he told me he was aiming a lil hi and adjusting for wind. I told him he didnt need to with the scope set. After finally listening he busted some rocks. He has hunted as long as me and has more experience than my neighbor. So in a sense sometimes its better for someone willing to learn and listen to take long shots than someone who thinks they know it all and wont listen. Just my take on it. I also have a new 7 mag, i wont shoot it beyond 550 yards because i dont have the confindence in myself yet with that rifle set up. I do have the yards set to 800 but doubt i will ever use em because i havent been confident in that rifle at those ranges yet. My old 7RM no issue because i new the gun. This new one will take time. JB seems to know his guns and what they do. I like the confidence. Great kill!
Enrique O. Ramirez CLAN OF THE BORDER RATS - Member
"..faith is being sure of what you hope for and certain of what you do not see.." Hebrews 11:1
I actually stuck up for this hunt on another forum, before reading this. I can't believe this young girl had never shot this rifle before. John you should be ashamed..
I think I already explained I feel pretty proud of how that all worked out.
It is possible that me calling her a �girl� in the title of the thread is somewhat misleading but it made me smile.
While this might have been her first big game animal she owns her own bird dogs and hunts upland game most every weekend.
The elk was hauled out of the hills in the back of her 1 ton dually truck. She owns a string of horses (including one of the better mannered stud horse I have ever been around) and tack (including pack saddles) and regularly rides alone in the exact area in which she killed the elk. She was ready to saddle up and pack that elk out of any hole it could find.
She owns her own .300 WSM.
She works 12 hr shifts in the QC dept of a company that makes cancer medicines and only has the weekends to hunt.
I did not �let� her shoot that elk. I simply told her what the gun would do and she made the decision understanding exactly what could go wrong.
What really makes me smile is how she performed so well in a situation that has a few, just a few, of you guys stumped.
An impartial observer might draw the conclusion her stellar performance has damaged a few fragile egos. I mean if a �girl� can do it ???
JB,
Good on ya and tell the girl congrats. This place didn't used to be like this.
- Greg
Success is found at the intersection of planning, hard work, and stubbornness.
An impartial observer might draw the conclusion her stellar performance has damaged a few fragile egos. I mean if a �girl� can do it ???
There must be more "girls" than we imagined masquerading here as guys. Listen to them crying and whining.
I think you do a fine job John.
I wonder how many fathers here put their daughter behind a rfile for the first time when they shot their first deer and patted them on the back in elation?
By the way, in case you missed it, Jeremiah was a bullfrog.
There are those of use that have actually killed a lot of elk, and know how tough they are
So thick skinned that a bow with 2 FPE can't take them down...right...let alone a 45-70...@ 20 yds....chit better have a howitzer @ 50 to make it sporting....laffin
azz kissing knows no bounds......if this was joe blow poster they would be blasted ! but a advertiser and ho-raaa ! never will agree with that type of shooting on video because it breeds copy-cat shooting with people who have no buisness doing it.
Here's my thoughts on this whole fiasco, I still haven't got an answer wether she shot her 300 much, but still, he it goes.
I think Barns is a hell of a shooter and has done a lot for LRH, but after finding out you didn't even put her on gongs for a few hours with the gun is kinda foolish. You put her behind the gun for one reason, to prove to the masses that a GB precision rig can kill stuff in the hands of a rookie. I know, I know, it's not the shooter its the spotter that does the work, but holy [bleep] shes human. You know it and I know it, this was a stunt, a stunt on a living, breathing animal.
I'm not here to slam JB and Grey Bull, but thats my opinion. And if you think I'm just a mouth breather who hates GB Precision you can go over to Canadian Gun Nuts and look at the 19 [bleep] pages of flack I took for defending you, because I was absolutely positive a guy with your experience (John) would have atleast put her behind the gun for a decent amount of time before you coached her to killing her first elk.
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