Ive been a Leupold fan for decades, have quite a few as well as Zeiss, Swaroski and S&B but always thought Leupold was a durable and effective choice for most applications. I've been a bit distracted the last few years but I see that Nightforce has become very popular, what's that all about? How do they (L & NF) compare these days?

I'll get the popcorn.....

You might as well have kicked someones cat

There is nothing wrong with Leupold, yes there has been some reported issues, but consider how much of the market they have.

NF is the 6.5 Creed of the optics world. NF has their place among the others, it's just not everyone's cup of tea. I like them, have a couple but they are heavy and have no place on a trim hunting rifle.

If I was Leupold, I'd be looking at how much of the market they've lost.

And I'd disagree about "having no place on a trim hunting rifle." It all depends on the application, and reliability/duraability translates into a little more weight, weight that's best trimmed from other parts of the rifle for certain applications.

Leupold still seems to be the best scope for the $, at least in the under the $1,000 price point. Please educate me if I'm wrong, I'm not opposed to learning something here.

oh boy here we go.
put on ya rubber boots boys,
Big Ed

Hey, y’all can buy your heavy Chernobyl metal, chinese sweat shop scopes if you want.

If I added up all the dollars I've spent on Leupolds which went on to have massive zero loss or stopped adjusting anywhere close to correctly, I'd come up with a sum somewhere around the cost of a Nightforce.
Take that information as you wish.

That information is as worthless as mine.

I’ve pounded them on my 444 rifles and they haven’t failed

Yeah, I've had some old Leupolds that worked great, too.

Funny thing....when some people hear info that contradicts their own experiences, they listen and learn. Others bury their heads in the sand.

Same here. I have had a countless number of Leupolds over the past 25 years and have never had an issue. I have had them on anything from a 22LR all the way up to 45-70’s and slug guns and never had one go belly up.

Wow.

I have a NF on my Creed.

Otherwise, not knowing any better, I could be shooting a .270 wearing a Leupold.

Good thing I’m here on the Fire.

DF

Some like to flog Leupold for their own lack shooting skills. Others have had real issues with them. Both these statements are as true as a NF internals. 😎

I have new ones that hold up too. I really don’t care what a fella uses.

It's difficult to put into proper context though without good comparative statistics. Absent that, one's own experiences will carry more weight.

is this a joke post? are you serious? lets just sum it up if its not. Leupold's suck mechanically. They have even tried to pass off some very very high end models marketed to the miltiary. ALA mark 6 an mark 8, scopes priced north of $2000 with crappy and piss poor tracking and mechanical reliability. Never mind the mark 4's and VX3's marketed to the consumers, those have tons of reliablity issues. The problem is the optics world has changed. We are asking our scopes to do far far more than we did 20 years ago. We are asking them to adjust with precision and reliability. Leupold and most rifle scopes for that matter work just fine as set it and forget it scopes. As long as you don't mess with the adjustments its likely you will be just fine with the scope. Leupold didn't realize this was a problem they needed to address. Probably because so few people actually shoot their guns and use them in a manner that exposes the flaws of the imprecise manufacture. So what has happened is more people are using their scopes like this, we have forums etc. Frankly many of us are tired of the junk they sold. So when you want to cure your scope problems and you are finally sick of wondering zeros. resetting your zero each time you go to the range. clicks that don't match the turrets. YOU BUY A NIGHTFORCE. They are legendary reliable. IMO their reputation is without equal. even compared with a company like S&B,which on snipers hide there have been complaints even with them. NO ONE complains about nightforce. I have simply never heard of a bonifide issue with one and that mirrors what I have seen.

I bought a lifetime supply of ‘70’s and ‘80’s Leupolds when they were still readily available. Still using them.

Yup

I doubt anything has happened to them. What you read here may, or may not, reflect the overall industry and sales.

1) More shooters dialing scopes and finding out some percentage don’t give you exactly what you ask for.
2) The internet allows one persons experience to be read by thousands.
3) People have tried other scopes such as NF and found they dial precisely.
4) see #2

I’ve had a few Leupolds with mixed results. Glass, eye box, weight, reticles and look are all great. Made in US of A, great. I’ve had one die, albeit it made it over a thousand rounds. More than I can say for two Meoptas and one Vortex on that rifle. I’ve had one with dials that may as well have been random number generators. It seemed to hold zero, but getting it there was an adventure. And, I’ve had one that was just fine for the few hundred rounds I used it. Hardly a statistical sample, but enough frustrations to lead me to try other scopes.

If they wanted to attract me back, they would convince me they have revised their internal design to be repeatable and durable. I want a reliable sight, period. I don’t want to wonder whether the thousand or so shots prior to the season have taken a toll. I want to believe I have a scope that will, within reason, hold zero if it gets dropped. If they can keep the weight down, maintain the quality of glass, friendly eye box that’s icing on the cake.

I’ve had one with dials that may as well have been random number generators. It seemed to hold zero, but getting it there was an adventure.

That's pretty funny!

There are paid shills that bash certain brands on forums. Not saying this is happening here, just take everything with a grain or two of salt.

Leupold has many lines, like all makers. Any discussion of optics without specifying which line in particular to which line of another maker is absolutely meaningless.

But generally, Leupold still very good (so far), even their VX-Freedom. Nightforce is much much better on average, but no better than high-end-line Leupolds that run about the same price.

It's funny but true. And they do fail, I've had a couple fail. Most didn't fail, but there you have it.

Some thought Stick was one for Alpha Brass...Peterson thread comes to mind...Those posts were hilarious reads. 😎

If they work, they work.

One of the unsung features of a Nightforce is its ability to be used as a billy club if needed. They managed to manufacture a lot of heft into those suckers!

The old Leupold “Knock”...

It’s been frustrating at times. I, too, have sent a few down the road after getting them repaired. Replacements were NF, Swfa and Bushnell for those Leupold’s that showed problems.

For me, VX6 glass is really nice to use for covering heads at distance...

My hope is Leupold will one day realize, if they would just copy the same internals as SWFA, add a zero stop, and lense the damn scope with Vx3 or Vx6 glass and sell them between $650-$1600 bucks, they’d hit a home run.

Just hoping....😎

I take mine salmon fishing for said use...😬😎

Don't think Alpha needs Stick. Maybe Peterson could use him.

Me too - have a few Leupolds also, like them too.

Mine have held zero but had a couple issues with tracking. I the the CDS option on the cheaper lines is just asking for trouble

x2 classic campfire there, “random number generaors”...love it 😁

I've had numerous Leupolds and they have worked without issue, the CDS-equipped ones working just fine on targets out to 500 yards. But....I kept hearing about Leupold's failings and how robust and dependable Nightforce is.

So I bought one, an SHV. Love it.

Then an NXS 2.5-10X42.

When it arrived, I unboxed it (sorry, no 5-minute youtube video), and was looking through it when I noticed a black speck that I eventually determined to be on the inside of the objective lense.

I had also recently received a copy of JB's excellent Gun Gack II. Holding the NXS by the ocular, I whacked Mr. Barsness's book somewhat forcefully with my brand-spanking-new Nightforce.

The speck is gone and the Nightforce has went on to participate in some deer and coyote killings.

I would have had to think about whacking my VX-5HD like that.....

Several things happened. The biggest one being the internet and all the buzz about long range hunting and shooting and TV shows promoting it. All this allows the rapid spread of information, especially on "optics forums" and the uninformed may have their opinions swayed by that information, whether it is good or bad.

Take me for example. I have been using Leupold scopes in Alaska since the early 70's because they had great eye relief and were light in weight. They were always used as "set and forget" scopes. I zeroed my scopes for 200 yards since the majority of Alaskan game is shot under 200 yards, then I verified their point of impact with my loads out to 400 yards and learned to use "hold over" with the scopes reticle. Had good success with that system and the only time I ever touched the scopes turrets was if I needed to re-zero a scope for what ever reason.

I still believe that system works for most big game shooting in Alaska, as many of my friends prove every year. But, in much of North America the turret twisting craze is wide spread, hunters/shooters want that capability and many of them are of the opinion Leupold's don't hold up to constant turret twisting and I have no reason to doubt them. I think it comes down to ones shooting needs and wants.

I now have a couple of rifle/scope combos that have scopes known for reliable turret twisting and both utilize the mil system. But, this fall I will grab the .338 with a Leupold VX-R 3-9x40 with Firedot #4 reticle and a Kenton Industries elevation turret and go hunting. I doubt I will have cause to twist a turret and if I miss a critter it will not be the scopes fault. I am also looking at the Nightforce SHV 3-10 which would add another 6 ounces to my rifles weight.

Bottom line for me is if I wanted to be a constant turret twister I would look past Leupold.

AT least they have eye relief!

Couldn't agree more. My grandpa killed lots of game at all kinds of distances. I doubt ever at any of our "modern-day" distances but he always would say " beware of the man who only shoots one rifle, they know how their trajectory like the back of their hands. ". I have a few different rifles that are set up with turret style scopes but it always seems that the one I shoot most is my mark v with vx3. No dial needed. Just range time.

I can take it with a grain of salt about Leopold mechanics. I've never had an issue but I'm also not constantly using the dials. My opinion is neutral like Switzerland.

I have a SHV on my Creed. The VX-6 has better glass than the NF but I trust the NF more.

Both have good ER, the Leupold eyebox and ER are hard to beat.

I’ve sent a few Leupolds back for failure to hold zero, but still like them.

Just a matter of trust.

DF

You are not wrong.

I’m shooting 270 with vx2 and cds reliably from 200 to 650 yards ...hope internet scope wizards approve.

Well......I really worry about that .270.....(grin)

I forgot all the gory details...
But when loopie fell out with precision reticle I started buying swfa.

I agree....Nightforce optics are great (and you pay for this quality) but their hefty weight disqualifies them in My book for the light/trim hunting rifles I prize, plus a 30mm tube scope mounted on a slim, trim rifle looks like a monkey [bleep] a football 😁.....Hb,

So, it looks like we've put this to bed then?

Hmm.

Well, no, not until every Campfire member who's ever owned a Leupold votes....

I used to own nothing but Leupolds, currently I own none. Do I really need to.explain w hy? I wont own another Leupold until an announcement is made that they redesigned the erector system.....period!

All my 13 Leupolds have seen collective use and occasional abuse - mainly in Alaska. So far no issues. Anything mechanical can break at any given time. Evidently mine are old enough to predate whatever the current problem is. I am not a turret twister. I zero the big game stuff to 250 and know my holds to 400.
My "clicks" are written on a piece of masking tape placed on the scope tube. I'd rather test my stalking skills than my sniper skills. No offense to technology, nor to those who embrace it, but this is my guideline.

Wait......wait! I get to vote! I have never had a Leupold fail to hold zero. I’ve had Vari X and VXs and FXs and they all worked for what I used them for.........a sight! I like them! Leupold is all I own, but.........I’m not a turret twister. If I was I might feel differently.

I can accept the Leupold mechanics for what they are. But the wildly inaccurate descriptions and pictures of their reticles is frustrating.... How hard is it to have accurate marketing?

Nothing wrong with either or a Montana...

Lost confidence in Leupold holding zero and adjusting to POI. Sent them in and they came back with same issues. Have several more fixed 6 x Leupolds that so far still work. I tend to swap scopes and problem shows up trying to sight them in.



No one will believe it till it happens to them though!

Dick died...

I currently have about a dozen scoped rifles from 204 Ruger to 9.3x62. I have more Leupold than anything else, but also use Zeiss, Leica, Swarovski, Kahles, Trijicon, Schmidt-Bender and Nightforce.
The only "failure" that I ever had was the illumination on the Trijicon. The others have never failed. I guess I just like to experiment.
donsm70

LOL- this is going to be a long, long thread..... I better stock up on popcorn....

For the record, I have Leupolds, B&L Elite and Bushnell Elite, Burris, Weaver, and an oddball or two. Just too cheap to spend the dollars on Nightforce just to see what the excitement is all about. Had about the same amount of problems with each of them and sent a few of each back for repair/replacement- mainly due to the fact I'm a klutz and I'm pretty hard on hardware at times- but not when it counts....

Feel free to carry on as usual.....

Bob

People that have problems with leupold imagined the problems

Mule deer , your opinion on the current state of Leupold ?

Funny story (incident)!.

Fixt it for ya...

bump

I bet he'll say "Oregon."

I have 25+ Leupolds...3-4 not as yet mounted, including 2 NIB LPS. I bought 4 NIB LPS years ago. Have also bought the old Gilmore Red Dots.

Most of the Leupolds came on rifles or scoped pistols that I acquired.

I would most likely NOT buy a new Leupold .....for the money I can find a good used Diavari or , my first choice, used Kahles.

I have sent a couple Leupolds back for repair. 1 they sent me a very nice letter ....that said the scope met their specs.

Leupold has become a mass merchandiser ....and in the process have lost a bit quality.

If you believed everything you read on the Campfire, you would be shooting under powered fast twisted cartridges and 6.5 Creedmoors. You would stay away from Leupold scopes, while the world outside the Campfire continues to find success with Leupold and without fast twist and Creedmoors...

I have 25 plus Leupolds also, they work fine for me.

Good Morning Hanco,


I like the old Redfield Tombstone scope I got from you.

Best,

Chuck

I used to buy a lot of m8 s here on the campfire.

I would have the seller ship to Leupold for a check up, and perhaps a new reticle.

Well over half of them needed new erectors. Which they did replace at no charge.

No one advertised their scopes as " broken" when they sold them to me.

So I wonder how many of us even know our Leupolds are " broken".

If you believed everything you read on the Campfire, you would be shooting under powered fast twisted cartridges and 6.5 Creedmoors. You would stay away from Leupold scopes, while the world outside the Campfire continues to find success with Leupold and without fast twist and Creedmoors...

Ain't that redundant?

And you left out ping-pong balls.

Fine, I've had a couple FX 6 power optics and a couple Redfield Revolution optics. The only issues was with a 2-7 Revolution(not going into details, but my fault). They fixed it and had it back to me in 3 weeks. They seemed fine to me.

My scope needs have not changed in the last 20 years or 50 years for that matter. This is probably why Leupolds are still good to go for me. My scopes are on hunting rifles and I have no need to spin the dials. I have not doubt there are scopes with better adjustments, but all I need is clear glass with a usable reticle, for the zero to not change once I set it and for the scope to not fog. There's nothing beyond the old the Vari X II that benefits me and my main hiunting rifle even wears an old Weaver K4-1.

It is horribly evident Leupolds are popular ......where else can one buy a $ 250.00 Leupold for $ 325.00 but the Campfire ???

Not many, I'd guess, including me much of the time, and not just Leupolds.

Last year I killed two deer, both at about 35 yards, but with a crossbow, not a rifle. I also passed on some at about the same distance while carrying my fast-twist, under-powered rifle (stuffed with ping-pong balls BTW). My VX-5 HD would've had to have been pretty futzed up to have made me miss those deer I passed on, and if a bullet had landed somewhere unexpected, I'd likely have blamed it on something other than my scope, at least until the next time I put it on paper.

One thing I have to say about many younger shooters, even those who don't (yet) appreciate the wonders of Mausers, Sakos, lever-guns, and falling blocks, is that they often put their equipment on paper, and thus reveal problems that once-a-year guys don't ever see because they drag out old Betsy a week (or a day) before the season, fire one or two to check their zero, and call it good, even if they leave the range with a slight nagging feeling about the shot that was a bit off.

This is 100% accurate and I believe extremely prevalent with brands who don’t actually design build product but source and market.

worlds worst person to ask for an accurate opinion, a magazine writer because if they say bad things the companies pull advertising. My brother is an automotive journalist for among others the New York Times. They have to be very careful about what they say because all ford has to do is say umm we are spending 50k a month with guys, not anymore. Same with leupold

It all started with medical marijuana.

F u c k i n g i d i o t

English, ye walk the path of damnation! The elders expect ye to use Zeiss or Steiner!

Lets put it this way Ive bought a lot of scopes in 72 years for guns Leupolds had trouble with one sent back they sent a new one that was on a 270 . I've use them all because of money high to low ends. They are all good for the job. I bought a 25.00 scope changes red to green u would think junk I don't think so right up there with the Bushnell, Tasco, Simmons.

Not really up on my Amish; so if a feller (say, a friend) were to sport a belt along with his suspenders, would he end up spending Eternity in Heck?

Glad you like the old Redfield, I still have one or three or four of them. They are still damn fine scopes. I killed a bunch of deer and pigas with them. I had as many as 30 at one time.

Thanks again,
Hanco

Absolutely. A belt is finery. Ye shall not present thyself as a high toned or vain man!

I would trust JB to give an honest assessment or none at all .

Boots? It’s too late for your boots! Save your watch ! ! !😀

I like Leupolds eye relief and weight.The only one I sent in for repair was one I dropped out of a tree stand and they replaced no questions.I own Zeiss,Meopta,Minox,Bushnell,Weaver,Burris,Nikon and even a Vortex and since I am not a turret twister have had no problems with any of them.I will never own a $2,000.00 scope but buy whats on sale and stay away from buying used.I sight 2 to 3 inches high at 100 yards and am good to 300 plus on hair no matter the caliber.I believe in The KISS theory of shooting.Huntz

MD's veracity and knowledge have been demonstrated far more than yours, far more.


mike r

+1.

Since the quote you copy mentions Mule Deer, I will respond.

I know Mule Deer, count him among my friends, and he’s straight as an arrow with his reporting and comments on paper and in conversation. I’m sure also that is not the standard today, and I also know there is significant pressure to take care of advertisers in articles. I am quite sure that when John Barsness writes or says something it is unvarnished truth.

I take your implied slur on John personally.

Are you having a bad day no one suggests anyone as lying. I just said a magazine writer may not be your best source for PUBLIC information. And I told you why. What doesn’t make sense about what I am saying?

People with leupold problems imagined them, why are you worried about it, keep reading the gun rags it’s clear you believe no one here anyways

watch this video below, this is the crap I am talking about a mark 6 scope is north of 2 grand, so are the problems here imagined???

another fail by leupold

Cumminscowboy, you quoted the question asked by Clynn in which Mule Deer was asked for his take on this topic. Then your comment “worlds worst person to ask for an accurate opinion, a magazine writer because if they say bad things the companies pull advertising.” If that’s not a direct personal attack on Mule Deer I don’t know what is. If you say otherwise, you absolutely don’t make sense.

This is not about Leupold and it’s troubles; this is about an unwarranted attack on a fine and honest guy. And for the record, I have had trouble with newer Leupold scopes, especially variables. I have gone to M8 fixed powers almost exclusively, except for Burris FFIIs and a Zeiss Conquest variable.

GF-
Don't waste another second on cumminscowboy - his waste of bandwidth in the optics forum is without peer.

Sure seems to be the case; well said, SKane.

My experience has been that they are good as set and forget scopes. However, if you are going to be trying a variety of bullet weights or makes, or make a habit of making corrections in the settings then they result in a lot of wasted ammunition. I don't believe I have any newer than 20 or so years so maybe the company has corrected these deficiencies. My more recent scopes have been Burris and Bushnell and they seem to meet my needs better.

Jim

His articles are the only thing I read in the gun rags I take. He is gonna tell you like it is. I won’t take any of them if he retires.

Gentlemen,

Don't let your emotions carry you away. I think cumminscowboy's words were poorly chosen, but I do not believe that he specifically meant to badmouth John. I read it as he doesn't think asking any gun writer for his opinion was a good idea. He believes that writers have to be careful not to speak ill of companies who advertise in magazines where they are published. John just happened to be mentioned in the post preceding his.

I'm sure he will confirm my take on it.

What happened to Leupold?

Simple.... they refuse to fix the known issues with their erector assemblies. Over the past 10-15 years.... maybe even less.... much of the shooting public has come to expect a little more out of their riflescopes... and have a greater ability to test those scopes in the field (or in a children’s playground).

They continue to rely on the Gold Ring and their “excellent customer service”.... which still means a lot to much of the shooting public. Neither of which mean schitt to me if my scope goes tits-up when I dial for a shot at a mule deer buck...

In the end, it seems Leupold has rested on their laurels.... and customer service.... rather than investing in some cost-effective and corrective upgrades.

Agreed....Leupold met the Vortex customer service challenge, but neglected to advance the engineering of internal components. Coupled with a change in component manufacturing to a lesser quality of materials made in China.

These are facts...I personally know the former head of manufacturing and components ordering and the Lead of Leups QC department.

Both, left-retired after 25 years at Leupold in sadness and disgust at the new management initiative of bean counting over quality improvements.

That’s the sad, factual truth of Leupold and dialing scopes. 😎

Bean counters, thinking they are good operational people, have been the death of good companies everywhere. Sad deal though.

words poorly chosen yes I agree. I apologize to anyone if they feel attacked I get fired up too often

Let's get onto neutral subjects like best RV or best truck for towing or best engine transmission combo for towing, or gas vs diesel.

Leupold lost their way for a bit there, but the stuff I have seen coming from them lately has been pretty good. I liked VX-6HD and Mark 5HD. Can't say I am terribly impressed with anything below VX-5.

VX-R has an interesting illumination system, but the rest of the design is the same archaic system they have been using for the last thirty years. VX-Freedom and VX-3i are also somewhat spiffed up versions of the same things they had for a long time. To me, it looks like everything below VX-5 is sorta skating along on what is left of Leupold's reputation, but higher end stuff is legitimately competitive.

Nightforce makes a good product, but I think a legion of their fanboys exagerrates how bullet proof they are. NIghtforce has a service department and it is as busy as anyone elses.

I've seen pretty much everything go down at one time or another.

On the issue with gun writers and print media. I talked to some print media people a decade or so ago and they wanted to put a lot of restrictions on me, so I politely declined and went on my own way.

Earlier this year, the folks from Guns and Ammo reached out and asked me if I want to write a piece for their new Red Dot magazine (it has been out for about a week now) and a few of the other special edition issues later on. Naturally, we had a conversation about advertisers and restrictions, since that is not something I am wiling to compromise on. Basically, the way my arrangement with them works is that we pick a topic, they give my a word budget and a deadline. I can not use bad language, but aside from that, I am free to write the way I see fit and their editing is extremely light handed. I can live with that.

I havn't the foggiest idea if it is the same with other magazines and other writers. I can only talk about my personal experience and to me it looks like they are less worried about advertisers than they used to be. Or more worries about sales. Or maybe I talked to the wrong people ten years ago. The people I am working with now seem like honest brokers.

ILya

In general, there are fewer writer-restrictions due to advertising in most magazines than there were a decade ago.

Have been in the magazine writing business for over 40 years now, and when I started making a living at it there was relatively little pressure from any magazine to mention advertisers products favorably. (That included the fishing market, where I also wrote for many years.) In fact, the bigger magazines had a policy much like newspapers: There was virtually no contact between the editorial and advertising departments. The editors tried to put together a magazine people would want to read, so the advertising department could tell manufacturers how many people would be seeing their ads. In fact, there wasn't much opportunity to mention products in feature articles back then, because they were mostly stories or how-to, not product oriented. The product stuff went into columns, but often in a more general way than today. A flyishing article, for instance, might discuss the advantages of graphite fly rods, but there wouldn't be much (if any) mention of specific brands.

Eventually, however, a relatively small gun/hunting publisher figured out they could sell a lot more advertising if the articles prominently mentioned advertisers products. Eventually this resulted in "stories" where a hunter slid out of X brand sleeping bag in the morning, pulled on Y brand clothes and X brand boots, then grabbed his ABC rifle with a DEF scope and left his GHI tent.

This worked for quite a while, and eventually many of not most advertisers came expect not only ads but feature-article coverage. But a lot of readers grew weary of it, one of the reasons for the decline in readership (along with TV and, eventually, the Internet). This is why, in recent years, the trend has been backing away from such stuff. You can't sell as many ads if there aren't as many readers buying the magazine.

As for Leupold, I still have quite a few, but mostly scopes at least a decade old, and the majority are M8 fixed powers, which for certain kinds of hunting are excellent. As an example, have had a 4x M8 on my lightweight 9.3x62 for around 15 years now, and it simply never changes POI. Even their variables almost never used to break, but since 2010 I've had to send so many Leupolds (both fixed and variable) that I eventually printed out a stack of repair forms so they'd be on hand.

To be fair, I haven't tested many of the higher-priced scopes Ilya mentioned, partly because I've been testing other brands, since there are so many new scope companies these days. Would like to try some, but in the past half-dozen years just about all the folks I knew at Leupold have either retired or gone to work elsewhere. Plus, I'm not writing about optics as much in general, especially after I "semi-retired" this year by cutting my paper-magazine schedule in half, and one of the casualties was an optics column. (Though it feels I'm still working almost as much, probably because of writing more for riflesandrecipes.com., which keeps growing.)

So it's settled then. Everyone should abandon Leupold and buy Burris.

I'm glad we got that cleared up.

Only scope I have had go tits up in the field was a previously owned Leupold M8 4X on a 270 CLR. Sent in, promptly fixed (reworked/rebuilt erector), so it will be good to go for at least my lifetime.

I’d think twice about sending an older one in, might come back worse with one of the new errectors in it. I’ve had the best luck with gloss+friction. The one matte friction I bought in the 2000’s was a now infamous random number generator.

I should also mention (as I have a number of times before on the Campfire) that many scopes have broken, or been proven defective, on my rifles over years. This is partly because I started TRYING to break scopes in the 1990's, when I was writing my first optics column for Petersen's HUNTING. I did this by mounting them on rifles that generated at least as much recoil energy as a typical .300 magnum with 180-grain bullets at 3000 fps, at least 30 foot-pounds, because I'd noticed that was the level where far more scopes started malfunctioning, and often quicker than they did on lighter-recoiling rifles.

Still generally use a .300 magnum, usually my Heym SR-21, but have also used my New Ultra Light Arms .30-06, my custom .338 Winchester Magnum, and a .375 H&H. All are accurate enough to really be able to tell when a new scope starts going bad (or is bad out of the box), normally within 50 rounds. On occasion one fooled me, shooting fine on one of those test rifles for 50 rounds, then going bad shortly thereafter on another, lighter-kicking rifle, but in general new scopes that fail quickly do so within 50 rounds, and sometimes within 20.

To date I've encountered 19 different BRANDS (not just individual scopes) that failed simply from shooting. Somebody already mentioned that any scope can fail, because they're all man-made mechanical objects. That has been my experience: The scopes that failed have ranged from really inexpensive to very expensive--but some inexpensive scopes have held together very well.

Should also note that scopes that fail to work correctly on a harder-kicking rifle will often do fine on a lighter-kicking rifle, though eventually they may fail again after a while. One example was a really inexpensive dialing scope a company asked me to take on a major hunt a dozen years ago. I put it on my NULA .30-06 and sighted it in, but didn't really trust it so brought the NULA's then-regular scope along. This was prescient, as when I got to my destination the "affordable" scope was not still zeroed, and could not be zeroed. So I put the regular scope back on and killed a bunch of big game.

The affordable scope hung around for a couple years, but then I decided to see if it would work on a .17 HMR. It did, and even dialed correctly! Or at least it did for one rodent-shooting season here in Montana. It went bad the next year--on the .17 HMR--but probably due to too much dialing rather than recoil.

Should also mention that I apparently have more bad luck with scopes than many people, partly because the very FIRST scope sent to me by a manufacturer for testing is often bad. At one point, in fact, I suggested that to upgrade their quality control, scope companies should pick scopes at random and send them to me, as they were pretty sure to be defective....

Anyway, I can't even begin to count the number of individual scopes that have proven defective or broken on my rifles, but it's been a lot. Some I expected, but many I didn't. Generally if more than a couple scopes of a certain brand (or model within a brand) go bad I'm pretty leery of trying more, partly because it often proves to be a waste of time, ammo and barrel life. But yes, just about any scope can break. It's how often they break that differentiates brands and models. When I have three scopes of the same model or brand got bat-crazy, then I tend to avoid 'em.

Thanks John . As always, logical no BS information.

Ironically, I think reading those stories generated more interest in outdoor activities, and therefore demand in outdoor products, if not for a specific advertiser's products. Sort of the tide that lifts all boats so to speak. I used to check out magazines from the school library and read them on the bus ride home.



Is there anything specific that changed with Leupold in 2010 you can think of that caused this? Many on this thread mention it is design related, but your statement implies quality control or materials went south in some regard.

Leupold had a bit of a change in personnel in recent years, partly because a good number of people retired (as John mentioned) and partly because quite a few experienced people went to work for Sig, who opened their shop a few miles down the road. Now that Crimson Trace is in the scope making business as well, I would not be surprised if they pilfered some people from Leupols and/or Sig.

From a consumer standpoint, it is a good thing to have three companies like this all next to each other. They feed off of the same pool of employees and, having several companies in the same area encourages people from other parts of the country to move to the area since there is a good job market.

Greater Portland area has quite a lot of optics and electro-optics companies within a 100 miles from each other: Leupold, Sig, Crimson Trace, FLIR, Collins Aerospace plus all the EO shops in Hood River. There are a few smaller outfits as well, like Kruger and some other OEM shops and a medical imaging company or two.

This kind of competition is not great for Leupold in the short term, but is probably healthy in the long term (general disclaimer: I know some of these people because of my dayjob and some because of my hobbies. The two often overlap).

ILya

Leupold used to rule the roost, but the GWOT has created a lot of opportunity for other players like Nightforce. Leupold has also gotten a lot of bad online chatter lately, much of which could be blamed on a raft of Chinese counterfeit copies.


Okie John

No disrespect Okie John but that's BS. There are many members of this.forum,myself included that used to.entrust all rifle scope needs to Leupold. Not ebay Chinese counterfeit scopes but actual NIB VXIII and VX3 scopes. The fact is that after wasting time and money shooting rifles with Leupold scopes on them that adjustments are a comp!ete crap shoot you realize that there are products out there that actually work as designed. Leopold knows they have a garbage erector design and have done nothing to correct this well known problem. A warranty is as good as toilet paper you wipe your ass with if you have to use it all the time. Leopolds have some great attributes in their scopes but most importantly they have to steer a bullet for you and if they won't do that consistently eye relief, eye box and glass means nothing.

Leupold has earned many a shooters trust. In addition has always sponsored countless sportsmen’s fundraisers. Wish this fine USA company would go back to scope only development and regain lost customers with serious policy change. What ever happened to money back guarantees. Ship and fix time after time especially in the fall is lame policy. On occasion a cash refund would be in order but a thing of the past. Perhaps someday it may be considered a cheap way to retain customers base. After all many manufactures sell reconditioned. What could they loose ?

For Mule Deer, Ilya, or whoever actually knows: is the erector system the same up through and including VX5? Or, just through VX3i?

If Leupold doesn’t fix their issues, and earn the trust of their customer base back, they will eventually head in the direction of Remington (which has a similar amount of earned distrust from their previously rabid fan base). If/when someone like Nightforce puts out a 1”, duplex reticle, lightweight 3-10ish powered scope in the $500 or less category with similar reliability to their higher priced scopes, Leupold will lose most of the remainder of their market share, great warranty or not. Look how well Zeiss and Meopta have done in that space as an alternative to Leupold. Also, if a company like SWFA would minimize their giant turrets, and slim the weight of their scopes a bit, traditional scope users will look to them as a Leupold alternative as well.

Currently the trend is toward large, heavy, relatively high powered scopes, even on lightweight rifles, following similar trends from the PRS/Tactical shooting crowd. A scope with similar attributes that would have been laughed at 10 years ago on a rifle like the Kimber Montana for example, now looks almost normal and common. If that continues to be the trend, the “lightweight and compact” features which made Leupold so desirable at one time, will be a non issue, and Leupold will become a dinosaur. Hopefully someone from Leupold reads this and takes note.

Well I had a fisher dietz fail on me that was on a 303 of course it had been my fathers, so it was probably 40 or 50 years old when i got it, but to add to the cheap scope issue, I have a 375 H&H Finnbear that I have had for at least 40 years, that I put in a brown precision stock I finished myself, then mounted an old bushnell 1.5x4.5 on figuring I would see what happened, shot a few hundred rounds through it and scope held up, switched it to a tasco world class a while back and I know the round count is in the hundreds on it also, with anything from 235 grain up to 300 grain bullets, and to my surprise it has held up well, has taken moose, and grouse, and a lot of the hunts are up the alaska hwy, and all in winter time, so I am surprised it does so well and decided to keep it on there, so even cheap scopes can work.

Tom M1

You are most likely correct. I did buy some used FX s also. So they could have been the ones the inspection receipts showed erectors needing replaced.

I never really analyzed my receipts.

folks can say what they want......I've purchased a good number of scopes of many different brands.....as well as binoculars and other optics.

Leupold has earned my trust and I can't see why one should ignore that. I'm sticking by them.

I strongly suspect the design of the erector and adjustment system is very similar in most scopes from most manufacturers. Failures in any brand are most likely caused by simple assembly errors brought about by inexperienced, poorly trained, underpaid workers and management required rushed assembly and/or faulty, out of spec parts. As someone who has worked for years building guns and obtaining parts from many sources I can tell you it doesn't much matter where they're made, you'll get alot of absolute junk that is out of spec dimensionally and/or improperly heat treated from everywhere. Nobody gives a fugg about quality these days, only making as much money as possible as quick as they can.

I doubt John gives a schidt about your apology, but I feel confident he'll accept it when you offer it.

If I'm out with a HB rifle shooting very long range I'll be spinning dials. I would go Nightforce for that. If I have a hunting rifle, one I'm not going to be spinning dials on, I'll take the Leupold.

Reminds me of the camshafts they put in some Chevy engines back in the 90s IIRC. Not heat treated so they would wipe, then when the dealers fixed them, they used the same defective cam. By the time the new one went South, the vehicles were often out of warranty. The difference with Leupold is they'll keep fixing or replacing their stuff forever, small comfort to anyone that misses an opportunity due to a failure, I'd guess.

I have this notion there's a big crate of defective bias springs (or whatever) in the Leupold warehouse that they're trying to get through before their reputation goes totally to Hell. No doubt it's more complicated than that, but the principle is the same.

Can't think of much other reason to move to Portland.

That was a common problem with GM 350`s.I had a GM Van that the lobes went flat at 50,000 miles.GM had a hidden warranty on this problem.They would fix it if you brought it to their attention.They had no recall on it.They paid to have my upper engine rebuilt and I drove it for another 250,000 miles so obviously the replacement cams were all right.

Yup. The PNW seems like a lovely area, but I've already abandoned one place where Liberal cities have screwed up the entire state. The bad part is that eventually things often get too screwed up even for the Libs, who then move on to another place they can start futzing up.

No doubt they ran out of the crappy ones eventually. A conscientious company would have pulled all the suspect ones from stock and checked them, or just dumped them. My 97 Exploder had a similar valve train fault, but the new "long block" they installed kept on trucking for about 200,000 more.

Well, keep in mind Leupold and most of the companies referenced in this thread aren't actually IN Portland. They are outside Portland in the suburbs, which are a far cry from that liberal sh!fthole Portland has turned into.... I live about 15 miles west of Portland and like it here just fine but I avoid going "downtown" Portland any more than my life depends on.... if it weren't for the incredible job opportunities and friends who live here, we would have moved to Central Oregon quite some time ago...

Bob

I am not thrilled with Leupy's service department. I offered to pay, in writing, to have an M-8 rear bell removed, a wierd european claw style ring slid on the main tube and the scope returned to me, ALSO offering to sign a waiver for future, if any, warranty claims. A big fat NO. A year later, I asked to send in a 6.5x20, with a Premier 35x reticle booster, and have it removed to a stock 6.5x20, at my expense, again offering to waive future warranty claims. Didn't even bother to reply. To hell with Leupy.

I agree that Leupold not only has a problem with their erectors but has had for many years, it seems that replacing erectors is their standard protocol when a scope is shipped in for repair. I have sent a few in over the years and in every case the repair noted was "replaced erector assy".

The most used scope in Smallbore and Highpower Silhouette is the Leupold 6.5-20x40, it is a great combination of power, lightweight, and good eye relief, but most of us who are serious about competing keep a spare one on hand just in case of tracking issues. If one is going to experience erector issues this is the discipline that brings them out, the scopes are constantly being adjusted up / down and windage.
One of the best pieces of advice I got was from a Leupold tech who told me to run the knobs from stop to stop a few times to redistribute the lube on the threads, I took his advice and tracking became pretty much a non-issue after that.

Regardless of how good their warranty and turn-around time is it comes down to the fact that they have an issue, they are aware of it and are not doing anything about it. This has been an issue for well over 30 years and they still have not addressed it.
Why ? - Because of brand loyalty, they are still looked at as the Gold Standard of scopes by most shooters. Most shooters adjust the scope on their hunting rifle and don't touch it again unless something major occurs, and most shooters never notice if their group opens up an inch or so - to them it was just a "flyer".

Fixing the issue cannot be that difficult - there are a lot of lower-dollar scopes that track just fine. I bought a Nikon Prostaff Rimfire scope for my 17 HMR, I paid $85 for it - it tracks perfectly. It's not rocket science Leupold - get your heads out of your butt.

drover

At one point I had several dozen leupolds from vx2 to mark4.
I’ve changed that to everything that gets lots of use wearing NF and the lesser fun guns getting SS from Swfa. Only very few leupolds have survived in my collection.

What ever happened with the US optics you bought Fred? No love? Saw a pic of it but don't recall you mentioning what you thought about it

I was issued a Mark 4 years ago that failed on me. Jumping down a 4 foot obstacle with then rife slung across my back when I got to my firing point I found the erector at a 45 degree angle. That was in 1995. Left a bad impression.

I’ve had few problems with my Leupold scopes over the years. If I hadn’t found better optics, I’d still be buying them.

15 years ago every rifle I owned wore a Leupold. Now I do not own a Leupold. Leupold is betting the farm on their market not knowing the difference, or accepting the risk, until it happens to them.

Is everyone ignoring the fact that the VX6HD and MK5 have new erectors that have showed to track very well. No doubt they had a problem that they were slow to fix. They probably thought dialing was a fad that would pass and they could weather the storm. I will continue to run Leupold on most of my rifles from FX-2s to the VX-6HD. The only one I use for dialing is the 6HD. I stay away from NF for the same reasons I stay away from yeti. Both great products but not for me. If I want a heavy tough as nails scope I use the SS 5-20HD. I’ll beat on it in ways that would scare me with the 6HD

No, they don’t. They have the same issues all Leupold’s have. There seems to be this rumor that Leopold “fixed” the erector systems with those scopes. They haven’t. About half that I’ve shot more than a thousand rounds have had to go back for service.

WHO SHOWED THEM TRACKING WELL? who tested them and how? staying away from nightforce because they are the YETI of riflescopes. holy crap that is funny right there.

You realize that you argue every side of a conversation as long as you can argue. Why don’t you show where it’s proven otherwise about the new erector system instead of arguing with me for the sake of argument.

As far as NF and Yeti they are both great products. Both overpriced for name sake. If I’m paying NF prices I’m buying a Kahles. There’s several companies that make equal or better coolers than Yeti and are cheaper. Pretty straightforward I would think.

Now that’s information. Thank you. It’s amazing what can be conveyed without being an idiot.

My sample of 1 6HD has tracked reliably over hundreds of rounds, not thousands. Guess I got lucky as have others I am aware of.

I don’t understand how you think NF is expensive. An SHV is about the same as a VX5 and an NXS is comparable to a VX6.

Neither here nor there in regards to the subject, but for some entertainment, I like this short video. At least they believe in their product!

https://vimeo.com/109698139

Good points and I was referring to the ATACR. I know little about the SHV so no comment, the NXS glass is inferior to SS 5-20HD, is SFP, and is more expensive. That takes the NXS out for me.

oh so now its kahles who is actually worthy of the price? dude PLEASE dear god know what you are talking about. watch these videos





and another




both videos show errors in mechanical operation of the scopes. One must ask how did they leave the factory that way? seriously how did they? because no one tested them!!! So now nightforce is YETI umm ok I will take a scope that is actually tested and looked at by a real person with their sticker seal of approval on them. YES is nightforce too expansive? probably but no other company will step up and actually test their scopes in this manner and show they are rock solid reliable.

I marvel that so many animals are alleged to have died over the years at the hands of such inferior scopes. (I suspect that each of us who claims to have killed animals with them are bald-faced liars.) Each passing moment seems to reveal the ineffectiveness of all current scopes. Thankfully, each passing moment also provides new scopes that solve all of the previous problems (until the next moment, when they are revealed to be ineffective as well, and a new generation of scopes takes their {brief} turn at solving all problems).

So you suggest all the NF tracking failures and factory repairs are lies told by internet jockeys? I never said they were anything other than top of the line but they’re also not the only game in town.

I guess I'll vote too!

The last 4 scopes purchased:

SWFA
Burris
Nikon
Burris

All of my hunting guns from deer to Varmint have old Leupold's and are zero and forget so I don't anticipate any issues.


Mike

When do the switchblades come out?

When the story gets to the West Side.

Zero retention issues aren’t solved by sticking your head in the set-and-forget sand. Weak erector springs rear their ugly head there too.

I was amazed that I didn’t have to frequently “check my zero” once I went to NF/SWFA.... like I did when I ran Leupold Vari-X series scopes.

I had an SWFA fixed 12x go nearly 1500 rounds without needing any adjustment is zero.... when I finally did re-zero it... it was .2 MILs left... that’s all. During that same time, I had a VX-2 4-12x40 with the AO and Target Turrets mounted on a .22 LR. That Leupold has to be re-zeroed frequently... and it wasn’t subjected to anywhere near the abuse the SS scope was.

Never heard of one person having a problem with NF I am eager to hear the circumstances of the failures you have heard about

Here's what this guy said about NF.......I personally have zero clue as I've never owned one.

I'm a Leupold fan and they aren't perfect. However, I've never had any brand of scope track perfectly. 1/4" per click my ass! However, when I bought each of my 4 VX-3is I read they improved the erectors on them and these four scopes track better than any scope I've ever owned. But then again, the VX-3s are as high on the food chain as I've gone with scopes so maybe I have no business commenting on this subject.

VX-3s have optics as good as my old eyes can take advantage of. I've looked through some high dollar scopes and they don't do that much for me. I will admit that one Zeiss Conquest I looked through was as clear as it gets and an old Schmidt Und Bender straight 8 power was the clearest scope I've ever seen. But at several thousand dollars I can't justify such luxury.

Longevity with any scope is probably greatly increased if you don't throw it down mountainsides, toss it out of treestands, dive into fox holes and and use it to break your fall while your clumsy ass tumbles down a hillside. Likewise if you don't shoot 700 rounds through your lightweight .300 Win. mag. every time you go to the range. Who the fugg needs that much practice anyway ? If you do you probably just suck and aught to take up ping pong. Either that or learn how to actually hunt and get close before you shoot, rather than relying on the technology of your 2500 yard laser rangefinder and super duper, foolproof, tumble proof, dial a mile scope and .850 BC bullets to make up for your lack of stalking skill and laziness. Where the fugg does "fair chase" come into the equation these days anyway ? Is there any limit to how far you can go before it's just killing ? Crypes I bet some of these guys can't wait to get their hands on an electronic pulse phaser that will shoot over, around and through mountains to kill game 5 miles away that's only visible through their heat signature seeking, x-ray vision super scope.

VX3i’s are fine for my hunting, I’m about a 300 yard max shooter.

What happened to Leupold?

They failed to anticipate all of the Chris Kyle wannabes!

What about a guy who’s not practicing for hunting? What if a guy likes to shoot for fun? Is he allowed to have a reliable scope?

Must be they already do seein as how people continue to compete and win matches every year and have been for a long time. Longer than NightForce and SWFA scopes have existed even.

Another vote for the Bean Counters took over. What I have personally witnessed in the past 16 months:

1) Custom Shop Retrofit prices more than doubled 01 Jan 2018. Unannounced. If they intended to prevent people from buying a used Leupold scope and sending it in to the Custom Shop to have it set up the way the customer wanted it, they succeeded.

2) Two sets of new Leupold rings in past 3 months. Both leave marks in the matte finish on Leupold scopes. Well BEFORE they get tightened farmer tight. Leupold calls it a "mounting system". However their "system" defaces their own scopes. I have had ZERO issues with Talley LW's marking a scope.

3) One of the set of rings above has a visible casting/forging defect 1/4"x1/2" on top of a ring cap that was not cleaned up by the machining process. Both rings also have visible file marks on the radius to the side of the mounting screws. Where's the QC ???

4) Overall finish has degraded. Leupold bases and rings previously had a very smooth matte finish. Last two sets of QR bases either have an abrasive blast finish, or have been from a very porous casting. Regardless, much more coarse finish than previous bases.

5) Last set of bases, the holes are drilled for an 8x40 screw set. The mounting screws provided have 6x40 threads, with a #8 shoulder to properly center the bases on the receiver. Yes, this reduces the number of SKU's, and inventory carrying cost for Leupold. However, if I happen to lose one of the mounting screws, I now have to special order from Leupold. It is no longer a commodity item that I can pick up at a local gun shop or hardware store.

If Leupold is making these types of cost cutting measures that are plainly visible on the outside... What's happening on the inside ???

I am not going to scrap my current lot of Leupold scopes. However, Leupold is no longer my "Number 1, Go To" brand for new scopes...

Dumbest post of the week.....

If you gut shoot a buck at 250, because the zero retention of your scope sucks...... is that still “fair chase”?

I suspect there are more in the running...

I believe zero retention is a strength of Leupold’s especially for non dialers.

Some people still believe Anna Nichole married for money, and there were WMDs in Iraq.....

I went to Wally World and met a guy and swapped all my Leupolds for Baraska's and a $100 gift card

I've never gut shot a deer at 250 and have never personally made a bad shot because my rifle wasn't zero'd. On the other hand, if you can dance a fuggin jig while whistling dixie and a critter doesn't spook because you're so far away you don't register as a threat or it doesn't hear or see you then it isn't fair chase or even hunting at that point. It's just long range target shooting at live targets.

Hit close to home did I douchebag ?

I'd get great humor watching your likely fatass try to climb some real mountains trying to hunt big country.

You are literally the angriest dude on this whole board. You litter this place with it. Why?

Misery loves company...

What a clueless dumbass. I've hunted "big country" my whole fuggin life. Unless you don't consider the Catskill park or the Adirondack park big. Abmittedly our mountains aren't as big as the rockies but they're plenty steep and covered with dense forest.

Wow .

Still got the shovel?????






Mike

Just when Leupold thinks they got it all figured out..... they’re wrong..... ain’t that right, Gunny?

Sorry, Blackheart. While I respect your experience, I've fished and hunted in your "wilderness." While the Catskills and, especially, Adirondacks are far wilder than many outdoorsmen from the West would believe, but they do NOT compare. My medium-sized Montana county alone (out of 56 counties in the state) is as large as the Catskills Forest Preserve, and the rise from the bottom of the valley to the highest peak is more than the elevation of the highest peaks in either the Catskills or Adirondacks above sea level. Only about 6000 people live in the entire county, and there are nine species of big game animals, existing from the (just as thick as the Adirondacks) riverbottoms and north-slope mountain ridges to above timberline. If you have never hunted out here (and this is by no means the wildest part of the wild west) then you have no comprehension of what the country is like.

I also know this not just because of my experience in both places, but because my wife is originally from New York, and her brother (who fancied himself a real wilderness adventurer because he'd done so much hiking and canoeing in the Adirondacks) was blown away when he visited out here the first time. As are a lot of people I've hosted from the East.

Shhhhhhh..grin..

He lives and posts in a bubble. Don't burst it John!

A huge dose of reality.

Stalk this....Laffin 😎

No, that is not "Big Country." See John's respons for further explaination.

Looks like my training mountain but mine has rattlesnakes.......grin...

Aaw hell Beav that aint nothin compared to the Catskills....... LMAO the big country.... hahahaha

I am thinkin blackheart needs to be dropped into the middle of the river of no return or the Bob Marshall and he will have a new understanding......

And your trees are bigger....grin...

Your monkey bars are harder than mine...And, I hate snakes. Bees too. 😬😎

Yeah, Fubar, I don’t get out much. Grin 😎

Blackheart is a classic ankle biter....

Ignorance is bliss, especially on the internet....

POS traded it off for a Nightforce. Will never make that mistake again.

Ya that’s step as fûck just about got a nose bleed looking down.

Stalk this....Laffin 😎

[/quote]

Looks like my training mountain but mine has rattlesnakes.......grin...
[/quote]

Oh jud best get to stair mastering his heart out then.
PS I heard he bit a rattlesnake and it died instantly. 😎

Are Blackheart and Stick related?

Blackheart and Deflave I think

I have to agree that it's at least in contention...

When it comes right down to it, the objective of hunting is to kill. There are various reasons that people hunt, and certainly most of us enjoy hunting for a lot more than just the killing, but at the end of the day if you remove killing from the hunt, you're left with sight-seeing, hiking, and photography. The original, primal reason for man to hunt was to make a kill and then make use of the meat, hide, bones, etc. Not much has changed.

On top of the fact that shifting zeros affect shots taken at all ranges, the whole notion of "short range is better than long range" is short-sighted (pun be intended). To intentionally limit oneself by using inferior gear or choosing not to practice and be proficient, is silly IMO. Obviously this means different things in different locales. My objective when I hunt is to successfully make a kill. Of course I enjoy the journey, but my purpose when I leave the house is to come home with a dead critter. I use the most reliable and effective gear that I can, and practice as much as possible to be proficient with that gear. To say that a guy practices too much, or is too proficient with his rifle, is laughable. I want to be prepared to capitalize on any and all opportunities that I'm presented with while hunting. To suggest that becoming effective at hitting targets at long range requires that the hunter know nothing about "hunting" or stalking, is ridiculous. I've killed big-game animals from point blank range to ~950 yards, and everywhere in between. The last two that I killed were called in to ~35 yards before squeezing the trigger, and spotted and stalked to within ~25 yards. But if the next opportunity is best taken at 500 or 600 yards, you can bet that I'll be ready. I know I'm not alone in this approach.

Unfortunately, compared to more robust options, Leupold scopes increase the risk of gear failure, and make proficiency more difficult to attain, due to the company refusing to update the erector design to something that is mechanically reliable and robust. Out of habit formed over many years, I check zero on each of my rifles before getting to practicing positional shooting. This used to be a necessity due to POI shifts that I would experience with my Leup scopes on occasion between range sessions. These days it's just something that I do because of habit, since my LRHS, DMRII Pro, SWFA SS, etc, scopes always return to zero and stay exactly where I left them.

Comments such as those made by Blackheart above are typically made by people that sub-consciously recognize their own deficiency or limitations, and have to justify to themselves, by whatever flawed logic necessary, that there is no deficiency at all. It's hard to recognize and accept our limitations, and is far easier to criticize those who don't share them.

[

Stalk this....Laffin 😎

[/quote]

Hate to admit the two elk before my last one came out of a canyon like that and the easiest way out was up. Shot from across the canyon and I guarantee there wasn't going to be any "getting closer" on either of them like people seem to think who have never hunted this stuff before. Thank goodness I had some young help packing out those days...

I think the hardest country I ever hunted though was the brush choked coast range near the Trask River and a couple years I hunted Snake River above Imnaha. Some of the most beautiful country you will ever see, but it will kill you if you're not paying attention- and that is just the drive in....

Bob

Good post- I will gladly take all the close shots that present themselves and I have. But I am also prepared to shoot where the shot presents itself within MY ethical limit, which changes by the day, conditions, how hard I've been hiking/breathing, etc... To most people, it should be obvious that is the reason we practice a lot and check and double check our equipment constantly.....

Bob

There's that Mule Deer guy, once again making sense and posting reality instead of dreams.

Having lived in parts of both coasts I have absolutely no problem agreeing with John. What I was told, and were passed off as, "mountains" back east amounted to no more than hills where I grew up in sunny SoCal even. There's no matching them to the Sierras, Cascades, Rockies, or even our little Warner's here.

Leupold scopes, I don't hunt them often enough to comment. I think the only one I have is close to 50 Years old now, a "pioneer" if I recall correctly. Still seems to hit the target when I shoot the old Marlin Mod 62.

Geno

What the flaw in the Leupold erector attributed to?

Ten years ago Leupold scope were considered durable and useful. Now those same scopes, forget later problems that may exist, are supposedly useless. The scopes are not what has changed.

Parts QC and out sourcing.
OH
And big box store clients like Cabelas, sportsman, ect pressuring for better margins. Only way to make them cheaper is to give on the quality end.
Leupold caved to the pressure of the giant middle men.

Owned many Leupolds over the past 40 years. . Quite a few were sent back and the usual repair was erector spring.


Leupold witched to twin erector springs in selected models in 2009

VX-3s, VX-3Ls VX-R and all tacticals Have the twin spring erectors

Rifleman, VX-1 and VX-2 DO NOT HAVE TWIN SPRINGS

You can send in any VX-III, VX-3 for an upgrade.

Had two Leupold scopes fail me during or just before a big game hunt. First one, a VX-3 broke an erector spring (single spring). Second one a VX-3 LR 4.5-14 x 50 with M1 turrets (which had double springs) suddenly stopped moving POI as selected. Called Leupold and got the "twist the knob lock to lock four times to distribute the grease". It was pulled from rifle, used a different rifle to finish the hunt. Later when I had time I did the lock to lock adjustments and it worked again. Played with it for a while on a target only gun then sold it.



Replaced all Leupolds but one which is on a 6 BR. Won't place a Leupold on a big game rifle ever again.

Emphatic No, Stick knows what he is talking about.

If a scope cannot retain zero turning the adjustments multiple times what makes you think it will hold adjustments after it is sighted in. Have you looked at a turret mechanism and see how it operates?

That is trick photography, camera angle gets you all the time itis really flat ground..

In the Catskills one must dodge housing developments and such , they can be quite hazardous

Ten years ago I was twisting the turrets on 2 Leopolds and having errector problems at between 250 and 300 rounds....

In the 60’s & 70’s Leupolds was a good option, the problem is everyone else has improved their scopes but Leupold has not.

I'm thinking he was dropped in. Landed on his head, that's the simplest explanation.

+1

I've been all over Montana, Wyoming, Idaho, Washington, Oregon and the Dakotas. Hiked in the bitterrroots and the Bob Marshal. I spent a whole summer out there in the early 90's. I know what it's like. I also know you can only cover so much country in a days hunt and that applies here or there. Deer populations are extremely sparse in the wilderness areas of both the Adirondacks and the Catskills. I seriously doubt filling a tag gets much tougher anywhere when you're dealing with deer densities of less than 1 psm in an unbroken, heavily forested 10,000 - 192,000 acre tract of state land. You don't have the option of glassing game from afar and using the modern technology of a laser range finder and pricisely dialable scope to shoot a deer 500 - 1000 yards away across a canyon on the vast majority of state forest land here. You've got to get close because there ain't no way you're going to see or shoot it from afar. On the flip side of that, I've hunted the open farmlands of central NY many times with a slug gun. Sure I saw deer across big crop fields that were far out of slug range. That's hunting and you sure shouldn't expect to be able to shoot every animal right from where you are just because you can see it through a high magnification scope. I'm just not convinced there's much "fair chase" involved when you're bombing animals from distances beyond their ability to detect that they are being hunted and are in danger. Hell, I don't consider shooting woodchucks from 400 yards "hunting" either. It's just shooting/killing woodchucks. Sure you can miss one from 400 yards but until you do they have no clue they'e in mortal danger or that theres even a hunter in the same zip code.

Hmmm, I've never seen any housing developments in any of the designated wilderness, wild forests, state forests or WMA's in NY. I'm pretty goddam sure you haven't either.

Your drivel is making less sense every time you post. First, it's "if you don't hunt the way I do you're not a hunter", then it's some new excuse that you can't get close to an animal because of the conditions, what is next? The point of hunting is to get close without the animal sensing you isn't it? And that doesn't matter if it is 25 yards or 1000 yards. And don't tell me a deer or elk can't see, smell, or sense you at those distances. The longest shot I've personally made on an elk was 700 yards. Just a couple minutes before, a very large 7 pt bull saw me move slightly from farther away (probably 800-900 yards) on the same hillside and ran off at top speed. Since I only had a spike tag in my pocket I concentrated on the spike on the hillside ahead of me. There were even elk on the hillside below me, but it was so steep I could hear them but not see them. Being prepared is what separated this from a sightseeing trip to a hunting trip....

I am thinking you should try plopping your ass into the middle of the 192,000 acre high peaks, 156,000 acre West Canada lake or maybe even the little 112,000 acre Siamese ponds wilderness area and see how long it takes you to walk to the nearest housing development.

Gosh your elk must just be way smarter than our deer. I have a field on the mountainside 850 yards across the valley from me here {measured with rangefinder} I see deer out in that field all the time during the open season. I can go out in my yard and cut wood with my chainsaw, shoot my .30-06, drive my Jeep down the driveway, play with my dogs, you name it, and they won't even stop feeding or look in this direction. I never said anything about not being able to get close because of the conditions either so about now I'm thinking your drivel is getting just as fuggin lame as your reading comprehension.

Different terrain types call for different strategies and different skill sets. It's a good idea to be well-versed in more than one of them.

I suppose if the be all and end all is just killing something for you. Do you put any limits at all as to what technology is used or how far away you can kill something and still consider it fair chase ? Suppose for instance some sort of laser gun is in our future. No bullet drop, no wind drift to contend with. A range finder would be pretty superfluous then because no dialing would be required without drop or wind drift so you can just leave it at home.. Would it still be "fair chase" to situate yourself on a mountain overlooking a vast plain with powerful telescope, spot a deer 10 miles out and smoke it with your ACME super deer blaster laser gun ? Did that deer have a snowballs chance in hell of detecting you ? What if we just develop a personal human cloaking device so that game hasn't a chance of seeing, hearing or smelling you so you can just walk right up to any old buck and bash it's head in with a hammer ? Still fair chase ? How far should it go and at what point do you cease to be a "hunter" and become merely a killer ?

Jordan,
You're the voice of reason. It's refreshing.

It is always interesting to me how people react to being proven wrong on a subject when everyone knows you were wrong. Nothing wrong with being wrong, but there is something to be said, after being proven innaccurate, the proper response would be to admit it, own it, and get on with it and all the onlookers would get on with it as well. The other way to respond is obviously the way BH responded...cloud the issue with more bullcrap and admit nothing. Says all you really need to know if you think about it.

Not going to even take a guess how much they have lost, but just for information sake I was in a new Scheels store yesterday. Huge scope display. Almost every scope brand I have known and several I wasn't familiar with, but NOT ONE LEUPOLD.

Really how amazing how they went from a leader too???.


Lefty C

You have some serious issues to work out ...

You have a tiny mind.

What was I supposed to admit ? That you technology buffs would rather get further and further from being hunters and work dilligently burning up barrels and feverishly twisting turrets rather than having to stalk your game or heaven forbid, run across a buck/bull you just couldn't kill that day ? It almost seems like some of you don't really like to hunt all that much but sure do want to kill stuff and to hell with whether it's sporting or not.

Did we get this one nailed down yet?

Believe it was along the lines of you stating that your home hunting ground was just as rugged and steep as the country GregW and other mountain hunters in the West hunt in.

I never said it was "just as rugged" you perpetually dimwitted twit. What I did say is, and I quote "Admittedly our mountains aren't as big as the rockies but they're plenty steep and covered with dense forest."

Says the guy who’s reading comprehension is so poor, that he though this was a thread about long range hunting.

If your scope doesn’t track correctly..... it doesn’t matter what range you’re shooting critters at.... your scope still doesn’t work the way it was intended, or expected.

If your scope doesn’t retain its zero.... then it doesn’t matter what range you’re shooting critters at.... your scope is defective.

I don’t know why that’s so hard to understand?

There are enough testimonies on here of Leupolds losing zero, not tracking correctly, and randomly schitting the bed..... to make a guy take a closer look at his Leupold.

Why does it have to be one or the other?

I like shooting steel and rocks and such..... my scope needs to work.

I’ve occasionally shot a critter over 1/4 mile away..... my scope needed to work.

I like hunting with a muzzleloader.... and killed a bull last fall with one.... my open-sights had to work.

I’ll even shoot a bow on occasion.... and the sights need to stay where I put them, or I miss.

Whether your scope works or not is the topic of the thread..... not some arbitrary range/hunting vendetta you saw the opportunity to pounce on. Hop off your Uber steep soap-Box, and apologize to some of the quality guys on this thread that you’ve pigeon-holed as long range snobs, and recognize that they’re hunters.... just like you.

My Leupolds work fine. So do my Weavers, Nikons, Bushnells, Redfields and Bausch and Lombs. I have had several Tasco's a couple Bushnells a Simmons and a Sightron fail in one way or another but none on a hunt yet.

Are you shytting me ? These mother fuggers are more than happy to jump on anybody, any time for anything. They freely throw derogatory comments and will bring into question your intelligence, education, upbringing, breeding and sanity at any and every opportunity. They'll do it even though many of their hypocritical asses can't spell intelligence or upbringing or even tell a crappie from a perch yet they're convinced they are the ultimate outdoorsmen and fine figures of men. They are quick to deride anyone who disagrees with their experience or narrow minded opinions and you want me to apologize to these fine examles of humanity ? Get a fuggin life.

That really depends on why you’re hunting in the first place. Are you hunting for fun, for the trophy on the wall, or because you really need the meat? Some cats hunt mice because they’re hungry, and they go for the throat so to speak. Others hunt mice because they’re bored, and they play with the mouse, even letting it try to run away several times, before killing it. I suppose the cat is more concerned with fair chase when it’s not worried about going hungry.

The first time I watched footage of alaskan natives shooting swimming caribou in the back of the head from a boat 10 feet away, it offended my sense of fair chase and sportsmanship. But I reminded myself that these were subsistence hunters, and their objective was to return home with a load of meat using any means necessary. The methods we’re willing to use or accept in our hunting depend on our motive for hunting in the first place.

How badly do we need/want the animal? Are we putting food on the table for the family, or are we leisurely looking for another rack for the wall? Are we playing with our food, like the cat, or are we simply trying to kill a critter so we can eat it. Are we “sport hunting”, or simply hunting? Is the thrill (and risk) of stalking as close as possible more important than making the kill? Again, it depends on why we’re hunting. I suppose hunters 150 years ago balked at modern technology, just as you are. When smokeless powder became popular, blackpowder hunters probably questioned whether it’s still hunting if you can kill the animal from 200 yards away with smokeless cartridges, “where the animal can’t even detect your presence.” It’s all relative.

If we’re hunting simply for the spoils of the kill (meat, hide, trophy, etc), then a laser beam a mile away works, as long as we can retrieve the animal before the meat spoils or other scavengers/hunters get to it. If we’re hunting for the sport, the experience, the challenge, or the thrill of beating the animal’s senses as a hunter, then placing limitations on yourself and your equipment makes sense. We each have different reasons for hunting, and I’ve found myself on both sides of the line at different times.

Oh the irony...

Great posts, Dog.

Very well stated and written. Thanks for taking the time. My above post was not in any way, shape or form directed towards you.

I’ve never had a Leupold lose zero.
I bought a Nightforce just to see what the fuss was about.too phugging heavy!

I like several brands of scopes.do I dial them?Nope

You're right in there. I've seen you do it many times. Pot meet kettle so to speak. I tend to treat people the way they treat me and have a long memory.

And with certain scopes that are built to actually hold zero and function properly (NF, SWFA, LRHS, DMR, etc), we can minimize the chances of having a scope failure when it counts, whether on or right before a hunt, during a match, etc.

Since I haven't had one fail me on a hunt yet I'm not terribly worried about it. Even if I did miss a deer because my scope failed it wouldn't be the end of the world. I'd go home, grab another rifle and get back out there. There'll be another deer to shoot at before long.

You took the first shots in this thread.... with your comments about “fair chase” and your toungue-in-cheek statements about long range stuff. You stated how rough the country you hunt is, and I’m sure you probably think it is.... but I don’t give a schitt where you are back East, the country you hunt is the PNW’s bitch.

You brought this on yourself.... now you’re the victim?

Never go full Liberal.....

Ooookay...

You live with a chip on your shoulder sniping your passive agressive BS all over the place everytime you run your mouth.

Not even worth the time. Just stop being a complete ass every now and then...

What if you didn’t miss..... but rather made a bad hit due to a scope issue?

Oh yeah... you’re wrapped in the warm blanket of “fair chase”... so that makes it all better.

The comments I made were directed at noone in particular and were meant to spark discussion. How that was handled/responded to from there varied from person to person as have my responses varied in kind.

Fair enough. We all make decisions based on our past experience and what’s important to us. But making a gut shot because the scope lost zero, sucks.

Anybody can make a bad shot for a number of reasons. Scope failure being among the least of them I'm sure. I know ANY scope can fail at any time without warning. If you are that worried about it hunt with iron sights as I have done on far more hunts than I have with scopes. Yes irons can be whacked out of alignment too but at least if you know where they're set and are good at detecting straightness you can see they're out of whack before you shoot.

Blackheart your reference to missing a deer from a scope failure being no big deal because you will grab another rifle and another deer will be along soon enough....
Well the west is different, some units take years to draw. Some units have low game densities, some have tremendous trophy potential etc.... therefore hunters tend to use the best gear they can afford to avoid failure. The opportunities may not come along again.
Also in many cases long distances are traveled and vacation is used up etc....
After waiting for years to draw a tag and the potential for a once in a lifetime trophy tends to make a fellow a little more focused on his gear and skill.

I suppose so. Thanks for your input and ideas expressed in a mature and intelligent manner. I tend to use what has consistently worked for me and like I said, I haven't had a problem with my Leupolds yet.

I am confused, which is it?

But, then again, I am just a specktater......

They are sparse compared to most places. I usually have 14-16 days to hunt in a season and have multiple opportunities to fill a tag each year. I have managed to kill deer every year since the mid 70's. If I were to fail this year I wouldn't starve and I already have more racks than wall space to hang them on so no big deal.

This line of argument is absurd. If you use a modern centerfire rifle with a scope, you're using technology to defeat the animal's senses, that's what humans do. If you think you're not, you're mistaken. The animals evolved and developed their defenses without a single predator that could kill them from 100 yards away.

Some acknowledge that and some refuse to based on some romantic notion that they're "really hunting" because they're not using the technology to it's full potential. The idea that a 500 yard shot is "unsporting" while a 200 yard shot is "fair chase" is ridiculous.

Agreed, I just used some of that technology to spin a Leupold up for a 556 yard shot at a wild sow in the rain not two hours ago, she died where she stood, to the OP, in the case of this old 30mm 6.5-20x50mm long range Leupold, nothing, it's still a hell of a true tracking scope.

I haven't taken a shot farther than 120 yards in the past 20 years. There have been alot of deer killed in that time and the average distance would probably be between 40 and 50 yards with probably 30 percent at less than 30 yards. Deer are certainly far more likely to detect your presence at those distances than at 400 yards plus. I do use scoped rifles sometimes but they certainly aren't critical to my success and I have in fact taken more deer with iron sughted rifles, shotguns and muzzleloaders than with scoped. My most used and trusted pair for deer since the 1980's have been a Marlin 336 .30-30 wearing a Weaver K-2.5 and a Winchester M94 ,30-30 wearing a Williams reciever sight in the rear and a lyman ivory bead up front. I've killed more with those two over the years than any others by far. Next in line for most deer killed would be my smoothbore12 gauge Ithaca 37 Deerslayer and my fully rifled 12 gauge Mossberg 500. Both wore irons for the vast majority of deer killed though both did wear Weaver K 2.5's for a time. Currently my 336 wears a 1-4x20 Leupold vx-2. My 94 still wears irons and always will. I've never carried a rangefinder or dialed a scope while deer hunting in my life. Lat year I filled my tags with a Howa 1500 chambered 6.5 Creedmoor and scoped with a 3-9x40Leupold VX-1 just because I wanted t try the new cartridge, One kill was 120 yards and the other was 10 yards on the run. I could have easily killed both my my old 94 . Certainly my equipment is a far cry from the Nightforce/SWFA scoped, turret twisting bolt guns shooting high BC bullets at deer in the next zip code after they've been ranged with a lazer rangefinder. Truth be told, I probably coud have killed 95% of all the deer I've taken in my life with my iron sighted 94 or my iron sighted T/C Hawken.

[My Leupolds work fine. So do my Weavers, Nikons, Bushnells, Redfields and Bausch and Lombs. I have had several Tasco's a couple Bushnells a Simmons and a Sightron fail in one way or another but none on a hunt yet.]

Gee, you mean a scope that doesn't hold zero will either miss an animal, or hit it exactly right? Good to know.

Also good to know that because you've "hiked" so much of West, you also know all about hunting out here. Did you hike during hunting season, with a firearm in your hands? I've done that not just in New York, but in several other states east of the Mississippi, on public land, and killed game from ruffed grouse to turkeys to deer. Have you done the same in the West, with any kind of game?

Have also hunted the Bob Marshall and other really wild country in the West. Unlike whitetails, elk (and even mule deer), do not hang out in the same small area after they start getting hunted. Have hunted far bigger country than your "mountains" for several days before even finding fresh elk sign--and in an area where the longest shot possible might have been at most 200 yards.

I said in my first post to you that I respected your experience. Have changed my mind. You're one of those provincial nitwits who cannot imagine anything except their "exceptional" experience.

You always know more than anybody John. I know damn good and well what the terrain is like out there and that's all I claimed about it. Probably just as much as you know about the terrain here, as I'm sure you haven't hunted anywhere near all of NYS. No it wasn't hunting season while I was there. Yes I carried a rifle while out hiking. Yes I saw lots of game while out there. I'm real proud and happy for you that you were able to carry a rifle and hunt in NY. I have heard that about elk before. It's still just hunting and nobody's likely to die if they don't kill an elk today or this season. Geezus, you'd think the world spins and the sun comes up in the morning depending on whether game is bagged or not and therefore I anything goes as long as a kill is made. Does anybody just hunt for fun, recreation and sport anymore or does all fame and fortune, life and death and lots of good young pussy ride on the outcome of a hunt ?

I’ve had antelope spook from a mile and a half...... does that mean as long as I’m inside that range, it’s “fair chase”?

How about Black Bears winding us from 3/4 mile and blowing off the mountain?

I once watched a mule deer buck, get out of his bed at well over a mile, and calmly saunter over the hill..... because he heard the car door shut.

Tell us Blackheart, oh wise one, at what range does it not become “fair chase”? Seriously, you seem to have it all figured out..... so let’s have a hard number where it goes from “fair chase hunting” to “shooting”.

Careful here..... because the animals and terrain varies greatly.

PS.... out here in the West, particularly on public land, the critters act a whole lot different during hunting season(s)..... than they do during “hiking” season.

Blackheart, I disagree and you missed my point entirely. Which is not surprising, since you seem to be much more interested in expounding on your own exploits than listening to what anyone else has to say including people who have much more diverse experience than you.

Your equipment is not "a far cry" from what others use, some of it includes scoped modern centerfire rifles, and you use the technology to defeat the animal's senses whether you want to admit it or not.

What you do is incrementally different than "long range hunting," not fundamentally different and certainly not the difference between "sporting" and "not fair chase ."

Wait till he sees pressured coues deer!

Take a bath once in awhile and watch the wind. At what range does it cease to be fair chase is my question. Or aren't there any limits as to what constitutes fair chase ? Should there be limits on the technology employed or not ? If not, why not hunt from aircraft ? Chase them down with snow machines ?

Not very many people see Coues deer a all..... let alone pressured ones.

The first one I ever saw was 40 yards away out in the preserve, just off the back porch in Tucson.... I had been on the porch for 20 minutes, and didn’t even see him until he stood-up and walked away. Ghostly little bastards.

Way to dodge the question.....

Blackheart,

No, I don't know more than anybody else. No human does. But I do have more experience than most hunters, so can appreciate (and learn) from other hunters' experience.

You, on the other hand, think YOUR experience is the ONLY experience that counts. This isn't unusual among humans, but most aren't as insistent about it. In fact, you're one of the perfect examples of what a good friend of mine calls "aggressive ignorance."

One day come see me...

Yeah, surprisingly they do the same here.

One of these days Amigo.... Coues are the only deer I haven’t hunted.... I have hiked in Coues country though.... it’s the same thing.... laffin.

I'm trying to get an answer to whether there are or shoud be limits to what constitutes fair chase. We used to call certain things "unsporting" if they left little chance for survival to the game. Things like shotgunning birds on the ground or jacklighting deer were considerd not to be fair chase or sporting. Seems like anything goes now so long as something gets killed. If rangefinders and dialing scopes for 1000 yard shots is ok, why not just use spotlights and hunt at night ?

But if you packed a rifle while you hunted (even though the season wasn't open) it[s the same thing....

Funny..... I’ve been trying to get an answer too..... you been ducking and dodging like Slick Willie.

Slick willie!!! Haha 🤣🤣

I don't know the answer. That's why I'm asking you. I know baiting isn't considered fair chase here and certainly jacklighting isn't either but to me shooting something 1000 yards away doesn't seem too sporting either.

This might be the dumbest thing I've read on here....

Blackheart,

So far you are the ONLY person on this thread who somehow insisted that this thread is about shooting at "too long" ranges, and then insisted that YOUR definition of "too long" is the only one.

Instead the subject has been scopes that hold zero and adjust reliably. You have even admitted that you've owned several scopes that haven't held zero, but since that didn't happen while you were hunting, it didn't matter.

Why would hunting scopes not holding zero at ANY range not matter, regardless of brand? Obviously, that doesn't happen when we can predict it will. Or is that another one of your skills?

You OBVIOUSLY know the answer.... that’s how it’s so easy for you to pass judgement on others.

What a pissin match this thread has become. 😂

I don't believe a brand exists that never fails. A scope holds zero right up until it doesn't and I don't believe anybody can predict when or if that will happen. I got onto the dialing thing because that always gets mentioned in any of these scope threads {including this one} as a "failure" of many scopes and Leupold in particular gets alot of bashing for not "dialing" worth a shyt..

IIRC, Leupold upgraded their scopes multiple times since the 1960's and 1970's.

Vari-X II became the Vari-X IIc in 1984.

Vari-X IIc became the VX-I and VX-II n 2001.

VX-I and VX-II were upgraded in 2004.

VX-1 and VX-II became the VX-1 and VX-2 in 2012.

The Freedom series superceded the VX-1 and VX-2 in 2018.

I have room for 100 rifles in the ready rack, around 95 of them have scopes mounted and of the 95, 70 probably have Leupolds mounted. My two current disappointments with Leupold are the usurious price that they are charging for a simple reticle change and the fact that the heavy duplex doesn't appear to be available in a 2-7x33 Freedom.

I didn't have a tag left or I would've shot this big sucker from the back of my truck a couple of years ago. I can assure you I wouldn't have worried what some yankee from NY (or anyone else for that matter) thought about it.

That didn’t keep up with the competition

Oh CHIT! if there was ever a reason to phone a friend.............................................................

That gives me chills..... Wow...

Blackie would be crankin' out bullets from the back of my truck faster than Hillary can have people assassinated. AdmittedlyI would've too......IF I had a tag left. Me and my buddy Big Al jumped a huge buck out of a sandhill blow out one day not far off the size of this one. I emptied my rifle (4 shots offhand), then he handed me his and I shot all 4 of his too. The buck is probably still hauling ass...........untouched.

In what way?

Tacticool?

I could have killed the biggest buck I've ever seen in my life a few years ago. I had that buck dead to rights. Had been treacking him in the snow on state land all afternoon and there he stood, broadside at about 75 yards. I didn't shoot because he was just over the line on private property that I don't have permission to hunt on. I'm 99% sure I could have gotten away with it. The landowners house is about a half mile down the road from there and it was late in the afternoon, late in the season. I hadn't seen another boot track in the snow all afternoon and heard no shots. I doubt anybody was even out hunting within earshot. I didn't shoot it because I would have always known it was over the property line and that would have been the first thing that came to my mind every time I looked at the mount until the day I died. The deer won that round that day. I bet that buck would have dressed 250 lbs. if he was an ounce and would have scored in the 160's at least. How I get them matters to me. It's gotta be legit or you might just as well just jack em.

Blackheart,

You're absolutely right, all scopes can fail. I've personally seen 19 BRANDS (not individual scopes) fail to hold zero, or otherwise screw up, such as groups opening up to several inches at 100 yards, or refusing to adjust in any predictable way. The question is not whether they can fail, but how often they might.

If somebody doesn't shoot all that much, and only shoots relatively light-recoiling rifles at close ranges, then most scopes will hold up OK. But not everybody shoots .30-30's or .308's only at woods ranges, on one or two deer a year.

And scope failure is not always "just a little." Have seen scopes of several brands that seemed reliable suddenly shift POI several inches (or more) at 100 yards. One of the earliest examples in my experience was a well-known brand that shifted enough to gut-shoot a deer at 200 yards, which even in your world might be within acceptable range.

If you haven't seen the same thing, then I might suggest that your experience isn't nearly as extensive as you apparently believe.

I figure that's why I don't have as much trouble with scopes as some people. Most of mine are on light kicking rifles. .30-30, .243, .223, .22-250, .22LR's and WMR's. Of those, the only ones that see much shooting are the .223's, .22-250 and the rimfires. My heaviest kicker is a .30-06 but that one doesn't get shot much. I just don't have much use for a rifle that big here. I do have a K-2.5 that has been on several 12 gauge slug guns for load/accuracy testing and has withstood several hundred rounds of full power slugs. It was later put on a .30-30 that is capable of consistent 3 shot MOA groups and it still adjusts and holds zero just fine. Pretty tough little scope and it isn't the only K-2.5 I have that's taken a licking and keeps on ticking.

ok ok, you guys have to finally admit I am not the most argumentative person on the board anymore!!!! that award now goes to blackheart. I am ready to be cut some slack now, LOL. holy crap JG what the frick??when are taking me hunting?? That video makes me feel like a dipshit

How fair is fair? How good a chance does the game need to have to get away? You like to brag about how you've killed deer every year since the Civil War and talk about how sparse they are where you hunt. If they really had a "fair chance" to get away you would've come up empty at least once.

We all stack the deck in our favor and you're no different.

Ray Wylie Hubbard says "the trouble with irony is not everyone gets it."

Holey Hanna!!!!!!!

Do you ever leave your Grandmother’s basement ?No,walking to the mailbox doesn’t count.

Those really big muleys sure look good going straight away like that.
Saw a similar view of one near Jackson Lake some time ago. All I got was a crappy picture.
Thanks for sharing JG and interrupting a pitiful thread in a positive way.

You tell me big shot. I've asked that question about a dozen different ways here and get nothing.

Stay on topic and stop trying to start a new argument...grin...

You started the whole “fair chase” argument.....

You passed judgement on a bunch of guys here.....

You should answer the fuggin question, or go away.

Wonder what Mr. Heart would be like if he was still a drinkin?

New scopes come out of the box with canted reticles for starters. Not adjusting properly, loseing zero and ability to hold zero after several hundred rounds. If you’ve never experienced the leupold shuffle consider yourself very lucky.

Your arguments are on topic. This is left field crap.

I've sent a few old scopes that came to me on rifles back to Leupold to be refurbished, but none for failure. I've never had any of the problems that you've cited, but because I have a large number of rifles, few of them get shot very much. Other than dedicated varmint rifles and rimfires, I doubt that many of them have seen more than 300 rounds fired, some less than 100.

There is no definitive answer, that's my point. Then again, I'm not the one pointing fingers and saying others don't hunt by fair chase methods, you are. If you can't answer the question stop with the accusations.

I've taken lots of game with an open-sighted muzzleloader, effective range (for me) at 100 yards or a little more. I've also taken some with archery gear. My opinion is, it's orders of magnitude easier to get within muzzleloader range than archery range, and get a good shot opportunity. So if pressed on what distance technology becomes more important than skill my answer is closer to 100 yards than 400. And the difference in skill required to get within 100 yards vs 400 is nowhere near the difference between 100 and 30 or 40.

So IMO anyone who thinks 100 yards is "fair chase" but 400 isn't is a hypocrite.

I just shipped a Leupold scope to Kodiak , Alaska. Someone stop it before it’s too late.

BH,
You’re ideas and experience are overwhelming subjective.

The world of hunts and different killing fields are mighty vast.

Comparing everything from your kitchen table only proves you need to invest in a bigger table, or buy a tag in an area outside of your backyard...😎

The way and the places I hunt don't change to much. I can only think of a couple of times in the last 35 years dialing would have been real useful. Set and forget works for me but I'll owe up to owning a couple of Mk4 Leopolds, a SWFA and a Vortex just to learn new things. I've had some scope fails Weaver, Redfield ,Tasco and a Bushnell. Of the 20 odd Leupolds I have they are and have been dead reliable ,I think they were all made before 2000 except for 1 VX-1 50 mm and I bought most of them used for a savings advantage. Knowing that Leopold would fix them for free or damned reasonable. I am kinda glad a lot of people bad mouth them and buy new wonder scopes as I have bought 4 Vari-X IIc's in the 18 months for a total of 230 bucks, the last one a gloss finish for $30 + tax. You all keep badmouthing them so there are more used ones for me to buy. MB

I used to hunt on a ranch out between Junction and Menard on the edge of the Texas Hill Country. We hunted on 4,600 acres on the Nogues Ranch. He (I'll call him Paul) owned about 1000 acres of it and Mrs. Nogues owned the balance of the land. She was a widow, here husband having died in a plane crash in a WWII relic aircraft. His policy was every guest got to shoot one buck, one doe, and one turkey. However, and he was adamant about this, his one exception was, "If you see a trophy buck even if it's in the headlights, Shoot Him!" He was from Michigan or Wisconsin originally, but had been in Texas so many years he would fight you for calling him a Yankee.

I don’t think it’s right to shoot a deer at night with lights.

I have two left in my collection, a VXII 2-7 on a 22 lr, and a vx6 1-6 on a 223. They don't get dialed or moved, I think its an OK scope if you don't abuse it, like dropping it. dialing it, putting it on a heavy kicker, for the 223 and the 22 they work great. I especially enjoy the vx6, I go back to the range time after time with the same fed fusion 62 grain load and it puts the bullet holes in the same center it did 3 years ago...just don't move them around, dial them or drop them by accident.

"Provincial" is the word I've been looking for! There's a lot of provincial characters around here. Start a thread that mentions bear baiting, crossbows, chili, beer, inline MLs, kaywoodie's hats, most anything, and they come out of the woodwork like bedbugs. Lighten up, people!

Provincial
adjective
1 : of, relating to, or coming from a province
2 a : limited in outlook : narrow
b : lacking the polish of urban society : unsophisticated

Pappy,

Yep!

Plus, I realized a couple years ago that MOST hunters develop their preferences (whether in cartridges, rifles, scopes, etc) between age 30 and 40. After that they never change much, mostly because those "worked" for them--and generally their fathers, and perhaps grandfathers.

Yet centerfire cartridge rifles and sights have been evolving for around 150 years. Which means that all those hunters who believe "their" generation of perfect hunting rifles is absolute perfection are essentially saying one 20-30 year period is not only everything anybody "needs" but anybody who might prefer anything else (even say, a 94 Winchester .30-30 rather than a .45-70 trapdoor Springfield) is FOS.

Personally, having owned and hunted with a wide variety of rifles I appreciate all of them.

The funny thing is, I'll bet $1,000,000 that when the youngest hunters (and I'll jump on the assumption that they almost universally prefer the newest stuff) get to be my age, they'll be in the very same boat. Odd bunch, we are.

BTW, I do not expect to be alive when the youngest hunters get to be my age. You can take my bet but you'll have to dig me up for the payoff. There will be a note in my pocket that says "you didn't REALLY expect to find a million dollars in my pocket, did ya?"

I've killed deer with multiple levers, pumps, bolts and semi's in .222, .223, .22-250, .243, 6.5 Creed, 7x57 mm mauser, .30-30, .308, .30-06. .357 mag,, .35 Rem. and .44 mag... I just prefer the "carryability", handling/balance of a traditional exposed hammer lever and never found anything to be more effective for where and how I hunt. I started with a .30-30 lever and went back to them for the bulk of my hunting after trying many others.. I guess if that makes me "provincial" then so be it. I can live with that. I have and will continue to experiment with new/different rifles and cartridges and if I ever find something I like better for my use then my old lever guns will be playing second fiddle but I'm not holding my breath.

Your experiences don't make you provincial. The belief that your experiences are universal makes you provincial.

I can live with that too. There are worse things to be.

Sure there are. Aggressively ignorant comes to mind.

Ankle biting heckling pricks constantly trying to feel intellectually superior in order to compensate for a tiny penis ain't better.

You’re a scrappy little thing...I’ll give you that much.

Reminds me of this super liberal neighbor bitch I once had. She could lose her mind and touch off a maelstrom of non-stop F-bombs and the C word always ending with azzhole when she directed her hate at me.

I was always polite back, asking how her Bipolar disorder was doing. Medication is the key, but you have to take it Sandra 😎

I'm so glad to have kept up with this thread. lol

That would mean something if everyone else on this thread wasn't telling you the same thing I am., and you weren't calling everyone else names too.

You know what they say about someone who thinks everyone else is an a**hole.

Reading this thread is the most fun I've had in two days. Please don't stop.

Oh it means something alright. I'm not the only one who's ankles you like to bite and you've been called on it before by other members. I've seen it, so have you. If you aren't aware of it, you don't have to dig very far back in your post history to find examples. You love to heckle just to heckle. I guess you think it's funny, makes you feel intelligent and gives you a woody and that my man, makes you an ass hole. Go back just a few days to the the "everythings bigger in Texas" thread and check out your posts to me for an example of your ankle biting [bleep]. And yes, you and I both know this won't be the last time you post to this one. You always have to have the last word, never let things go and are never wrong. Without a doubt this place is chock full of more arrogant ass holes than anyplace else on the web. I might well be one of them but I'm certainly far from alone and your name definitely isn't missing from the list.

Take your medication, Sandra.....

Blow up anymore guns lately Don ? You sly old devil you. Hahahahahaaa.

Think I shall wander off and find one of Stick's threads for some light reading.

well anyway back to Leupold , i own 15 - 20 Leupold scopes all are great scopes ,Leupold has great warranty. 10 years ago i starting selling Nightforce and own 6-7 of them yes these may be the best scope out there,but they are very expensive too for that little bit of a better scope. for the money buying a leupold and resale value tuff to beat a Leupold scope . this is the brand i always recommend for hunting for the average person. matter fact i put a cheaper scope on my daughters rifle ,she got pissed and she wanted a leupold scope on her rifle or she was stayin home,so i put a 3 x 9 Leupold on her rifle and all was good. even today when she shows her friends her rifle she always mentions she`s got a Leupold scope on her rifle.

These conversations never fail to amuse.

Those crappy Leupold.... Go take a look up and down the line shooting metallic silhouette. A game where in match and practice you shoot quite a lot (especially small bore) and scopes are adjusted many times every match and stability and return to zero and precise adjustments matter a lot. You will find Leupold outnumbers all the other scopes combined. Accuracy/repeatability/stability/weight are the reasons.

Match results and equipment lists from 2017 small bore championship - 2017 Smallbore National Smallbore Silhouette results

100 Competitors - Scopes

70 Leupold
14 Weaver
5 Sightron
4 Tasco
3 Vortex
2 Redfield
1 Zeiss
1 Simmons

Are they perfect? Nope. Are they all I own? Nope. Are still a great value and reliable? Yep. YMMVMD

LOL, blackheart when you call me an "ankle biter" that implies that you have some sort of elevated standing or status. Looking back at this thread, there are a lot of really knowledgeable guys telling you you're as FOS as a Chhistmas turkey so that's obviously not the case.

As far as all of these examples of me heckling others on this website, put you money where your mouth is (so to speak) and dig up a few examples and post them here. It'll be hilarious to see the company you're in. That thread you mentioned was the one with "quick karl," right?

Like I said on that thread, when I have you two retards yapping at me I know I'm in the right place.

Told you you'd post again you always do. Just can't resist. Always have to have the last word and are never wrong. You sure are a smug, arrogant prick for such a goofy lookin little old man. And don't give me that shyt about me yapping at you. I never address you first as you're lower that whale shyt and completely useless to me. You always make the first disparaging comment and that's what makes you an anke biter. I would never speak with/to you at all otherwise.

Thanks for illustrating what I have noticed myself. The rest of the world doesn’t know how crappy the Leupold scope is and they continue to use them and have great success. The Campfire can be crippling if you let it. I don’t believe in the Easter Bunny or fast twist either...

Black fart got a hernia.....

Does she have a Coach purse and Prada shoes? LOL

Happy Trails

Goofy looking little old man?? Good one blackie, that almost hurt my feelings.

You are partly correct. Leupold is the standard in silhouette for a few reasons. Weight absolutely is one. When you need to make 8 pounds 8 oz for smallbore Hunter class you can't hang a 2 pound scope on your sporter.

Otherwise, the more or less standard scope is silhouette is the straight 25X with a 3/8 or 1/2 moa dot. Quarter minute clicks. Weighs 15 oz. You don't need more than about 12 MOA adjustment from chickens to rams, smallbore or high power. And typically it's more like 9.

Who other than Leupold makes a scope to fit those parameters? NOBODY. In fact nobody makes one now at all as Leupold discontinued the silhouette scopes last year. But until recently they made the only real silhouette scope on the market.

And FWIW, every year I see Leupolds fail on the silhouette line. And you bet on 22s. They do get shot 5 - 10 000 rounds a year. It seems every year I need to send one back, in fact just got a 6.5-20X40 EFR back from servicing. The parallax knurled ring detached from the actual parallax adjustment, which is a big hassle when you are focusing every tenth shot for the next animal and distance. And the plug on the bottom of the adjustment turret that is used to seal the scope fell out, nothing like seeing into the innards of your nice fogproof scope and putting electical tape over the hole in the middle of a match and hoping it doesn't fog. That scope is less than two years old.

The year before a 1" 8.5-25X40 failed in the middle of a big match. Zeroed at the beginning of the match, it needed several extra minutes up to hit the target from it's zero verified a few minutes earlier.

One thing to consider regarding holding zero and silhouette. Conditions, mostly temperature, changes throughout the day. It's not uncommon to see your zero change a quarter or half minute. As silhouette shooters, we assume it is conditions changing. If it was in fact the scope zero retention wandering a bit, we would never know it.

Does that mean I don't use them? No, my rifles wear three 25Xs and the one 6.5-20EFR which gets used for dry fire practice in the basement all winter. But it's no surprise when one goes wonky in the midst of a match.

Good post, thanks for the insights and I suspect you have been at it far longer than me (a one match a month guy). I guess this sort of falls into the chicken/egg problem. If Leupold was the only one really serving the silhouette community and they form the majority of the scopes because of it I guess it's natural to see the most failures. I have had an old VX-III have a failed erector but it was after years on a .243 and then thousands of rounds on a .22. Still buying them though.

I've always been a fan of Leupold, their warranty is definitely outstanding. As others have mentioned though, the warranty seems to be used a LOT more these days. I just purchased a new VX-3i 4.5-14x40 CDS, it was pooched out of the box, zero drifts and won't group better than 2 or 3 MOA on a rifle that's proven to shoot 1/2-3/4 MOA with the original Vortex scope and did so again once I remounted that same vortex after taking off the Leupold. Last year I had a pair of binos the eye cup seized up on so wouldn't adjust anymore, sent me a new pair. A slightly older Leupold VX2 scope I had previously bit the dust when mounted on a 7mm RM rem 700, crosshairs started spinning around inside after a few boxes of ammo. A local gunsmith claims that in his career he's had a total of 20 scopes come in that were dead in one way or another, 18 were Leupold, 1 Vortex, 1 Burris.

Bushnell on the other hand, don't get me started. EVERY SINGLE Bushnell product I've ever owned has failed. From scopes, spotting scopes, binos, even trail cams... ALL DIED! Their warranty up here is atrocious too, like 6 months minimum on average... No thanks... Will NEVER touch another Bushnell product.

May have to start looking at other brands more.

I keep on hoping that Sightron will expand on their fixed power target scope lineup with something that has a little less magnification. their 45x45 ED scope is really nice and fairly lightweight. Maybe March will do it as well? Their 2.5-25x42 is not too far off, but it 22ounces, which I think is around 4-5 ounces heavier than Leupold EFR.

With Leupold not paying too much attention to this market and Weaver going the way of the dodo, there aren't too many lightweight target scopes out there for Silhouette.

ILya

Apples and aardvarks. But y’all knew that right?

Isn’t there a leupold staff or 2 that’s a member here?

.

If there is they would be wise to not get engaged in this or most any other campfire thread.

User List Search = Leupold

Search yields three Users:

Leopold
LeopoldOptics
LeopoldOfficial

LeupoldOptics appears to be the only user with any recent activity.

Truth... just wondering if they’re paying attention....

Deer? Bears? Antelope?

Heck, I've had rooster pheasants flush a full 500 yds because someone crested a dune in an orange vest. They seemed to know where the private property fence was too. Maybe if I had a laser tracking 500 yd capable shotgun I might have taken the shot.

Wild things live because they are spooky critters. Humans make decisions on "fair chase" based on their upbringing, experience, and ethics. For some it's a good bit different than others.

Geno

Y'all leave Mr kaywoodie's hats alone. They are nearly sacred.

The rest of that stuff is arguable for sure...... But,

This is a thread about scopes, right?

Geno

LeupoldOptics Forum Signature:

Be Bold. Be Adventurous. Be Relentless. // We do not actively engage in threads or respond to private messages. For customer service help, please contact us directly at 1-800-LEUPOLD or [email protected].


Profile for LeupoldOptics
From Beaverton, Oregon
Joined 07/02/18
Last Seen 05/20/19

This thread started on 05/17/19. I'm thinking it's a good bet a thread titled "What happened to Leupold?" in the Optics Forum was hard to miss.

No kidding, remember the Tract threads? Disaster.

Most companies do not allow their employees to openly participate on the forums. There are some exceptions to that (Vortex and Burris have active participation on a few forums as do some others), but they all pay attention. And they are good in deciphering who is a hysteric and who offers reasonable feedback.

ILya

I dare any company rep to step foot on these boards...........

....double dog...... It ain't pretty.

Nightforce might make it ok. I'd cry to them about not putting a Forceplex in the NXS line though.....

Y'all know what was different about this Leupold thread from all the others?

Nada damn thing.....

You must not have used any high-end Bushnell products. Their warranty service theses days is absolutely stellar, too.

Reminds me of the Peterson brass thread where the owner jumped in- I warned him it was a bad move but he kept on posting and making things worse.... Leupold would be wise to read but keep their distance from this thread... IMO....

Bob

Agreed Bob.

I like the leupold vxIIc scopes, I think they are bullet proof myself. Had one go bad but it was made in 71-72. Leupold replaced for free.

Nothing to gain for Leupold by participating.

Because of this known fact, I gave Sig some business recently, buying 3 scopes. A Tango6 and 2 Whiskey5 Hellfires with lighted QuadPlex reticle. The glass is both crystal in day and extremely bright in low light.

The Whiskey5 is a true hunting scope with a nice weight compromise between a SWFA SS 3-15x42 and a NF, but with better glass on par with a Vx6. The Tango6 is a tactical scope, making it a heavy bitch.

A Long time, respected, Fire member, who’s killed a pile of Leupold’s has been trying to torture test one of my Sig’s... I haven’t read it’s obituary, yet...

Trust me, my pard will expose a weekness. So far his only bitch is the duplex reticle on a tactical scope that caused him to mil out his target during sight-in with another scope.

Here’s my Whiskey5 5-25x52. I’m contemplating running it on this 300 Wby. 😎

You Like your bubble gum I see.. how you liking that instapot?

J,
The wife loves that thing. She makes some pretty fantastic meals - especially soups, chicken dishes, stews and chili.

Amazon bubble gun ordering is cheap compared to our store prices...”Now and Later” are good too.

Amazon even sells some of our old school candy. It’s pretty cool to find candy still being made that I haven’t seen since I was little tike.
😎

Just ask Trystan.....

Tested tweleve Tango 6 military scopes for 16 days this year. 7 of 12 had catastrophic failures before 3,000 rounds of 223. By catastrophic I mean “lenses falling out”. 2 more developed wildly inaccurate tracking.

They are just like Leupold.

i would have to agree ! thank you and the good lord for this nice picture !

If you’d stop using scopes to build your kill houses they might do a little better. Lenses falling out.?!? WTF...😎

Here Form, better? Frick’n Snipers in the bush. I guy never see’s you coming until it’s too late...Laffin 😎

I’ve still got 12-15 leupolds im waiting to break!!!🤣🤣🖕🏿

Formidilosus, is there an existing link or a particular thread on this site where you describe your testing procedures?

Just straight shooting. No abuse at all.


No one wanted them to be good more than I, but like the others- they suck.

On the bright side, went past 70,000 rounds on a Nightforce during the same period. A couple others broke 30k.

That’s better.


Better. 😉

70k...Clits be getting swollen with that number brotha.

I appreciate the intel, even if it’s too late. I still have a NXS ready to go if and when the Whiskey5 makes a turd. 😎

I wouldn't want something that fails at 3000 rounds either. Funny thing is, all I use are Leupold and I have never had one fail except for one that was screwed up when I acquired it in a trade (someone had removed the ocular bell). I shoot up to about 5000 rounds a year (total) on rifles ranging from .22 LR, to .222 Rem up to .35 Whelen. That's just my own personal experience with them.

I DO recognize the possibility that every one of them has some slop causing up to maybe 1/2 MOA POI shifts. The only way to know would to swap a Nightforce or something similar on them and see if I'm leaving some accuracy on the table. Could be that my rifles are more accurate than I think, and that wouldn't hurt my feelings. Just my pocketbook.

Another question for you: do you see a direct correlation between a scope's weight and its durability?

Form, you have a reason the lenses were coming out? They using chewing gun for an adhesive?

Seriously asking 😎

Whatever they’re doing (screws or bonding agaent) to hold it together ain’t working.

Copy...I’m pulling it. NF going up top. 😎

Wasn’t my intent. If you have it, might as well see how it does. I just wouldn’t use it for anything where I would be upset if/when it fails.

How bout sig lrf formid? Ever run em?

They go down eventually. Seems to be about 70/30 getting one that works out of the box, but most I’ve used have had problems eventually.

Copy that, what do you run?

All of them. Sig 2400AB, Leica, Zeiss, Meopta, Swaro, Nikon, etc.

I greatly prefer bino LRF’s, and while not the top in glass (though pretty darn good) the Nikon Laserforce has been the most solid so far.

So have you fingered the Sig 3000 BDX???

I have, but not enough to comment.

My rifle scopes were all their top of the line models at that times. Trail cam was supposed to be their top of the line model, it sure wasn't cheap. I admit the spotting scopes probably weren't part of their quality lines. The trail cam didn't last 6 months. Sent it in for warranty last September, just got it back in March or April. It's been a few years since I've bought any of their optics so maybe their warranty for those has gotten better but didn't matter what I sent in before, it was minimum 6 months and they don't tell you anything. They send a post card with the warranty claim # sometime after they receive the item and then you don't hear from them until it just shows up at your door half a year+ later.

I’m not paranoid at all...Grin

I was saving the NF for a different rig. But it’s all good.

Of course I would be upset if the Sig failed on my hunt. Especially now, after your report of colossal failures - glass falling out, and bad tracking. Schit Form, can it get any worse?

You’ve posted some informative failures before, I just don’t remember any being as bad as this report.

The rifle was intended for longer hikes into elk country...It was a light package before you woke up this morning. Now, with this NF it’s probably 9.5lbs. Still light by my normal elk rig.



Here’s the other side...



Done....Time to break in the barrel. 😎

Formidilosus,

Do they every use/test the SWFA SS HD 5-20x50 Tactical 30mm Riflescope?

Form's got the Scope Mounting to Maintain Zero sticky..... Need one with a running list of failures and successes.

Excellent scopes.

There's a lot of us that would like Leupold to be good/great scopes. They are light, asethetically pleasing and the glass isn't half bad in some of their offerings. However, when they don't even track right out of the box, then go totally tits up after a few to a few hundred rounds downrange, I've pretty much thrown the towel in on them.... Just because they are made 90 miles from my house doesn't mean I'm going to support them. If they started building rugged scopes that track like the SWFA SS's at that price point, I'd be on board with them. Until that happens, I'll buy better scopes...and by "better", I don't mean more expensive...

I’ve seen enough leupolds new out of the box that will not adjust properly to last me forever, I do not want to ever see another one.

The funny thing is, every picture I've seen in every article I've ever read about African professional hunters shows Leupold scopes on their rifles . Never seen a one with a NightForce, SWFA or any other tactical scope on board. Same for articles showing pics of rifles used by Alaskan bear guides.

yes i do like Leupold scopes but i also like Nightforce scopes >> look under General Big Game forum / Awesome Alaska grizzly hunt

10 ft Alaskan bear shot with a big Nightforce scope ! its on the 1st page of this forum

I hunt with leupold all over, I love em.... never had a failure. Sounds like a lotta folks do. Guess I’m just lucky

Yep, I've never hunted with an African PH either but I did have a subscription to "Outdoor Life" back in the day. I learned a lot from looking at the pictures of PH's. Most of 'em were wearing shorts and carrying their rifles on their shoulders, holding 'em by the barrel, and following a skinny black guy around.

I tired that but it just didn't work for me. The only Alaskan guide I hunted with in bear country carried a pistol, no scope. But in the pictures I've seen they all wore Sitka Gear, so I did get some of that.

you must be lying...…...the only scope I have had that failed was a Steiner it was on a 7 mag.....all my Leopold's have been fine....but I also use straight 6.....I don't twist knobs and all of that.....sight them in and leave them...….bob

I'm the same way with muzzleloader bullets, I've always used powerbelts. Other guys say they're too soft and will "blow up" but it's never happened to me so I just keep using 'em with good results, mostly on elk.

If/when it happens to me, it'll be real and I'll stop using them but until then I guess I'm just lucky too.

Dumbest post award goes to this one for sure. Congratulations ?

Just a commentary on your "real world" experience blackie. One thing I have done is write an article for "Outdoor Life," so I believe I've got you there as far as "real world experience" with what goes into magazine articles.

They didn't even ask me for any photos, just pulled some from their library and ran 'em. Showed an elk hunter in the mountains, all decked out with gear that had one thing in common---the auther (me) didn't use any of it.



Funny thing is, on this very thread you've got an Alaskan bear guide and a guy who's spent a ton of time hunting with PHs in Africa and knows them pretty well but you're not listening to either one of them.

Yeah, I guess we're just supposed to chuck our old faithful scopes because they're bound to puke any minute according to the "experts" here. I've got a 4x Bushnell Banner that I bought back in 1989 I believe. It's been on I don't know how many rifles over the years and still works fine. Had another fixed Banner from 1983 that finally broke one day a couple yesrs ago. It only lasted 34 years, what a POS. Sure didn't get my moneys worth outta that one. Luckily my old Weaver K-3 is still chugging along and hasn't let me down yet. It's seen pretty light duty though, mostly on slug guns and .30-30's for no more than a few thousand rounds. I used to converse often on another forum with a guy from England who was a professional game manager by trade. He had a bunch of estates over there where he was responsible for keeping the deer herds culled and in balance with the habitat. He needed to kill roughly 600 sitka, roe, pere david and muntjac every year in order to fullfill his contracts. He had been using a pair of Tikka M695 rifles wearing Swarovski scopes for 10 years and roughly 6000 assorted deer the last I talked with him and had no complaints about their performance. Course as far as I know he never came here so probably didn't know his scopes were junk and doomed to failure either. Besides, these guys here shoot alot more game and have alot more riding on it so need more dependable equipment for sure.

Oh sorry, I didn't know it was all lies in the magazines. When I saw pictures of rifles in magazines with captions that said they belonged to such as Finn Aagard and were used in the bush for years I thought it was the truth. Oh and you once wrote an article for outdoor life so that makes you an expert too. Didn't realize that either. Maybe because I've only worked in the gun biz for 10 years, 4 doing general gunsmithing and 6 building 1911's but I've found out here that I don't know shyt about guns so naturally I thought you had to have at least 30, 40 years under your belt to be one of the high and mighty.

I never said it's all lies, now did I blackie? My point is, getting your information from photos in outdoor magazines is not the same as real world experience. Do you want to address my point, or keep trying to argue your own straw men?

Pick and choose what you quote there scooter. You're still far from an authority and that ain't likely to change at your advanced age.

LOL, I never said I was an authority blackie, but I do know what I don't know, unlike you.

And seriously, "advanced age??" I guess if you've got nothing else, go with what you think is a personal insult. I don't take it that way. My age is what it is, just like yours. I'll be backpack hunting this fall for animals that are four times as big as your eastern whitetails, in the Rocky Mountains up around timberline. If you think you can keep up, come on out.

I would have loved to hunt out there but time and money was always short. That's what happens when you have 6 kids to raise, go through divorce, lose two homes and try to make a living in a rural area. On the other hand with over 200 deer, untold thousands of varmints, turkeys, small game, upland birds and waterfowl to my credit over the past 45 years, I'm not really wet behind the ears either.

Like I’ve said many times, I love Leupold scopes, I think they got a lot of things right. I just for the life of me can’t understand why they cannot make an erector that works as intended all the time. Instead they just increase the price in their lines as if I’m gonna buy a $1000 Vx5 or 6 with whatever flavor CDS when it has the same chit erector that’s in their $300 scopes. It’s almost retarded what they’ve been doing, and this is just one thread of many here where this issue has been discussed. The same old guys pop in with mine are just fine and then there are many like me that have been jerked six ways from Sunday on a crap Leupold that have had enough.

I never said you were blackie. The thing is, you can be really experienced and successful and still not know everything there is to know about things like the internal mechanics and failure rates of scopes.

Somebody here needs to disect a few scopes and figure out exactly where the problem lies. Is it a design issue or materials or faulty assembly that's at he root of the problem ? Until that happens, you're all just guessing and pissing in the wind. I don't have the bux to be tearing apart my scopes so It'l have to be left to one of you world travellers with deep pockets. As I said before, it's likely many if not most of the scopes from the majority of the manufacturers are using basically the same design. From there it comes down to materials and workmanship. Perhaps a change in the basic design is needed across the board. Simmons tried that with it's "flex erector" system a few years ago but it hasn't received wide acclaim so maybe more work is needed.

No, they don't use the same design and it'snot difficult to figure that out. And you want to say everyone else is guessing, how ironic.

How do you figure that when nothing from Leupold, Redfield, Tasco, Nikon, Vortex, Athlon and several others are known for tracking or holding zero dependably and only Nighforce, SWFA and a coulpe others do ?

19 pages and still going strong. Unbelievable!

Blackie do you have any idea how a Unrtil scope adjusts?

Nope never used one. I have used Weaver, Leupold, Bushnell, Redfield, Bausch & Lomb, Tasco, Simmons, Nikon and probably a few I'm forgetting and I think they likely all use basically the same design.

Yeah but 17 pages of it is post from Blackheart. Who as far as I can tell brings nothing to the discussion other than he just wants to argue with everyone!

Wel they do not use internal adjustments.

What have you brought ?

I have seen scopes that use adjustable mounts. What's your point ?

Actual experience with multiple Leupold failures. I’m not on here telling horror stories about hunting deer in the Adirondacks with a [bleep] lever gun!

It would be interesting for members here with broken leupold scopes to tear apart a couple of them and show some detailed photos of the erector systems parts. In my 50 years of hunting and shooting, I have had only 2 scopes go bad. Neither scope was a Leupold. I now live in Eastern Europe and It would be quite a hassle for me to send a broken scope back to the U.S. for warranty service. So I promise that if one of my 9 Leupold scopes crap out, I will disassemble the scope, take some good pictures and post them here. Ya'all shouldn't have to wait too long. I've been using Leupolds for 50 years now, so I am over due for a Leupold failure real soon. RJ

The thing I laugh about, “I won’t call them haters”, it the folks that don’t like leupold, strenuously, try to get their point across..... kinda like the “new” Remington 700’s..

rj, how much do you actually shoot? And, what era of Leupold's do you have? There are a lot of guys here that have Leupold failures. It happens all too often. One of the LGS that I frequent quite often has a wall of shame (or shelf rather), that is stacked pretty high with bad leupolds. He says he'll send them in one of these days...

I’ve used the shiit outta powerbelts on deer and elk,

I’m sorry bob, I promise I’m not lying!!!! Grin

I’ve got a bunch, cds’, m-1’s fixed blah blah blah, I’ve steel hung to 500 in my backyard, my leupolds work fine for what I do

Sure glad I stocked up on popcorn early. I'm not quite sure when this became the Blackheart show, though? Talking about shooting lever actions and open sights on a thread about scopes and scope failures? And on it goes- time to get more popcorn....

Bob

It would be interesting indeed. I wonder, for instance, if the internal erector guts and twin bias springs of a VX3 could be retrofited to a VXIII. Anyone know? If it could seems like that would be the best way to repair a VXIII for failure and more cost effective in the long run if it reduced the frequency of returns.

Im another that used a bunch of Leupold’s and have tapered back in the past few years. I still run a few of their 6x36 and 6x42 along with a couple older 2.5x8’s and 3.5x10’s but anything I’ve gotten in the past couple years to include their VX6 and such just hasn’t held up for me. Not knocking them but they didn’t work for me. I’m glad others have good luck with them and they work. I like to see American companies win but don’t like wasting time, bullets and powder chasing when a scope goes sideways.

The supposed twin bias spring is no better than the original single bias spring. I’ve sent back VX3’s and they returned them with the same claim of erector rebuild on the repair order that I would get with the VXIII’s that were repaired.

Sheister: I bought another Leupold scope just this week - seems the "Leupold bashing" and "Leupold bashers" have NO effect on me and and my enjoyment of the shooting sports, at all.
I own and use many dozens of Leupold scopes and have bought, used and sold dozens more over the last 55 years and have yet to experience MY first Leupold scope failure!
Checked my online inventory just now and I have 66 (sixty six!) Leupold scopes mounted on Rifles right today - and I have 5 more in reserve (not mounted on a Rifle yet)!
I know that any scope brand can have a failure but I trust Leupold for harsh condition and harsh recoiling usages.
I also own scopes by Zeiss, Bausch & Lomb, Burris, Redfield, Weatherby, Unertl, Weaver, Simmons, Tasco, Nikon, Lyman, BSA and Sightron - when its crucial though, I choose Leupold.
I am mounting scopes and lapping rings for two Elk Hunting Rifles right now that are owned by friends of mine - both of these "seasoned Elk Hunters" chose Leupold scopes for their Rifles (one a 30 mm tube VX-5HD 3 to 15 power variable and the other a 1" tube 4.5x14 variable). Both these Hunters have 45+ years of Elk Hunting experiences each, in harsh country and harsh late season conditions. I agree with THEM not a few Leupold bashers here-on.
Long live Leupold & Stevens Corporation a fine old American Company!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

That's what trolls do AC....piss all over every thread they get involved in.

Based on Mule Deer's post earlier, I still wonder what contribution to failures is due to the design versus quality control of processes and materials. He noted a marked increase in failures since 2010 and also pointed out that variables used to rarely fail (see quotes below). A few others noted that changes in management and personnel occurred although no one pinpointed a year or range of years for that. I.E., cost cutting, changes in production and personnel leaving either for retirement or to work for competitors. It would seem that design alone wouldn't account for an increase in failures. Sort of makes it all clear as mud.

Some previous comments for reference. Would be nice to pinpoint when the cost cutting changes occurred and when the experienced personnel left.

Thanks for offering to "take one" for the team. Not sure what the info will be useful for since we already have a notion about the What, and the Why probably only matters to Leupold, who suely knows.

Still have a few giving good service, and as an old man on a fixed income not facing anything mission-critical, I'll ride them out. As I've said before, the main effect of all this drama has been to encourage me to try new stuff rather than just reaching for the Leupold box. So far, all of the new players are giving good service too. Really hoping the VX-5 HD 2-10 hangs on, as it's a lovely instrument.