As a long standing supporting vendor here on the forum as well as a long time Leupold dealer I would like to attempt to clear up all this recent Leupold chatter. This thread is for you to state specific issues that you feel are relevant so that they can be addressed.

Please be as specific as possible.
Please feel free to PM me if that is better for you
Please do not post an issue that you heard your friends cousins brother-in-laws neighbor had.

Leupold is a solid company making multi-budgeted products. Some entry level and some high end. Obviously, a $200.00 scope will not and should not have the same expectations of a $1,500.00 scope. However, every product they offer can and should be expected to perform as advertised and be well made.

I look forward to this being a proactive and productive thread. Let's see what we can do to address whatever issues you feel are relevant.

If there is anything you're looking for please give us a call at 516-217-1000. It is always our pleasure to speak with you. Always give a call to discuss options and what would be best for your needs

Have a great day.

Please follow me on instagram at gr8fuldoug1

Thank you for your continued support.
If there is anything else that I can assist you with please let me know.
Doug
Camera Land
720 Old Bethpage Road
Old Bethpage, NY 11804
516-217-1000
Please visit our web site @ www.cameralandny.com
Cameras,Binoculars, Spotting Scopes, Rifle Scopes | Camera Land NY
Long Islands Largest Camera and Sports Optics Superstore

Was this your idea, or has Leupold asked you to do this? I think that's a fair question; whether or not you're at liberty to answer is something else.

Good luck!

Beef up the erector guts, even if it adds a little weight and that'll be good enough for me to be a fan once again

Create accurate pictures of their reticles on both their website and packaging.....

Oh brother.....

Doug is going to wish he had not opened this can of worms.

I like my 25 plus Leupold scopes. I haven’t had any problems with them.

Ditto what hanco said. I don't have 25 plus, but the ones I do have are all trouble free.

This was my idea. I want to attempt to clear up some real issues. As a Leupold dealer it slows sales of product (I know selfish of me) and as a supporting vendor on this site I feel it is my obligation to the members here to try and get issues corrected.

There are 2 threads at the moment and unfortunately on this, as well as most forums, once a thread gets very long it loses the original purpose of the OP as well as sometimes just becomes a bashing thread.

How can I suggest a Leupold product these days if popular opinion here is negative? Sometimes the perfect product for a members quest is a Leupold but if everyone around him is bashing it then it's not going to be a popular answer.

Leupold cannot make a post like this for themselves?

This was my idea. I want to attempt to clear up some real issues. As a Leupold dealer it slows sales of product (I know selfish of me) and as a supporting vendor on this site I feel it is my obligation to the members here to try and get issues corrected.

There are 2 threads at the moment and unfortunately on this, as well as most forums, once a thread gets very long it loses the original purpose of the OP as well as sometimes just becomes a bashing thread.

How can I suggest a Leupold product these days if popular opinion here is negative? Sometimes the perfect product for a members quest is a Leupold but if everyone around him is bashing it then it's not going to be a popular answer.

They could but won't

That's the point right there...

Heck their representative that comes on here once in a while wilts away the minute a serious question is asked.

They need to buy the rights to Weavers Micro-trac system and most of their problems will go away. More specifically, it has always been the erector system that is weak.I stopped using their BR models 20 years ago for that very reason.

Guys, what about "This thread is for you to state specific issues that you feel are relevant so that they can be addressed." isn't clear. I did not start this to be yet another bash fest. I started this to hopefully get so serious input I can bring back to Leupold to increase awareness of member opinion of current issues.

In answer to "Leupold cannot make a post like this for themselves?" the answer is no in reality they cannot. They are not a supporting vendor of this forum and therefore not in a position to do something like this themselves.


PLEASE, use this space constructively so we can make some changes that you all have expressed is overdue. Thank you

Doug, I have not purchased a Leupold product in 10 years or more. I would be hard pressed to buy one now as inviting as some of their products are like the VX5 HD and VX6 HD's . When I hear reports about them holding zero , not having misaligned reticles yada yada then I will consider them once again. At one point all I ever owned were Leupolds.

Doug

I know from my standpoint there’s not much Leupold could do to have me go back to them... At one time I had around 20 Leupold scopes and as shooting habits changed I began to notice the quality of scopes I once thought were great were in fact mediocre at best... Tracking, return to zero, failure to hold zero, inconsistent turret value, loose internal parts etc... I’ve tried to give them a chance to rectify the issues but a 75-80% failure rate on warranty returns just wasn’t cutting it...

These scopes were not the $299 versions either... All were 30 mm versions(VX3, VX-III, MK 4 etc) with Side focus and exposed turrets (M1,M2,M3) Failure after failure with no end in sight... The more I used them the more they failed... I switched brands and have been failure free since...

I am rough on equipment and shoot a considerable amount... some weeks I can shoot between 1-5k rounds under one optic and other times up to 10k depending on the clientele and what we are doing... None the less if it’s a quality product it should be able to handle such things... After all thats what the aiming devices are designed to do...

These are my personal experiences and no 2nd hand experiences which I see happen on a regular basis... I cringe when I see a client show up with a Leupold... I see perhaps a 10% failure rate of clientele optics on average... Not all are Leupold but a majority are...

It’s an honorable act you are doing and I wish you luck...

THIS!!!! If they do this, 98% of their problems are solved.

Guys:

I think we should not kill the messenger. Doug is trying to do the right thing here, and I think we should help.

I'll bet dollars to donuts Leupold is watching this thread, as they should.

Let's take an opportunity to give them constructive feedback so they can better meet customer desires.

I still own more Leupolds than any other brand of scope. Love their eye relief, weight, and overall package. Clearly, tracking is an issue that many wish to have addressed. I am in that camp.

I think this ought to be viewed as a good thing.

2 things:

1. I'd like to see the heavy duplex reticle offered as a regular option in the Freedom series 2-7x33 and 3-9x40.

2. I'd like to see the price for a reticle change reviewed to see if loyal Leupold buyers could get the work done for a more reasonable price, whatever reasonable is.

I also have more Leupolds than any other brand. The size, weight, eye relief, reticles, appearance, and glass are all good. Better quality on the erector system would be a definite plus, even if price was a little steeper and weight was more.

Consider SWFA’s internals, add a zero stop and Rock On! 😎

Same goes for me.

Accurate adjustments and zero retention.

Tracking and zero retention for me as well.

I use Leupolds as set it and forget type scopes as my style of hunting does not require dialing. For what I use them for they are great. I will say that a majority of their scopes I own/owned have had inconsistent windage/elevation values.

On a side note my favorite reticle was the LR duplex which went away with the VX 2’s. If they started offering this reticle in the Freedom line or better yet the VX3 line then I would start buying more Leupolds again.

doug, first of all let me thank you!!!! can I say thank you again!!!. I have been a leupold basher myself. but I would rather they just fix the problems and I would actually start buying the product again. They have the best variety of product features in the business. I don't want them to suck!!! I want them to be good. So MLGA make leupold great again!! is my attitude. What I would most like to see is what specifically has the company done to improve precise erector travel and insure rugged, reliable, repeatable adjustments. I realize they also offer some models to compete at a price point. I get it. However it would be nice if we had some sort of knowledge which scopes had internals there were designed for repeated adjustments. I don't think their set it and forget it scopes are in need of fixing.

It’s easy to get on peoples bad side, hell to get back on their good one.

Leupold has known what the issues are for better than a decade.... nothing on this thread will be news to them.

I only have a couple but for me the zoom ring is to stiff. And why make a scope without a fast focus eyepiece? Thank you

+1

Canted reticles straight out the shrink wrapped box is also unacceptable.

I sent ALL my Leupold's down the road. I have no confidence in their wares.

Leupold has been aware of the valid complaints and issues for years, and did absolutely nothing. They lost my business, and no way they could earn my trust or business again.

Doug,

Thank you for taking a pro-active stance on this, it is nice to see someone with an interest other than just the endless bashing.

As someone metioned earlier they should consider using the Weaver Micro-Trac system, it has been around for over 40 years so the patent is gone on it, it is the nearest thing to a flawless trouble-free system as there is. If they have a better adjstment design on the back burner then they need to bring it to the market.

I have used Leupold VX-3 and VX-lll 6.5-20x40 scopes for silhouette competition for nearly 40 years and I am a fan of their hunting scopes also, are they perfect - NO !! but they are generally good or they would not still be in business.

drover

Near as I can tell many that twist turrets and verify adjustment settings and return to zero capability are dissatisfied with Leupold. Many of these dissatisfied guys are very experienced shooters sending lots of rounds down range and I believe they know what they are talking about. I also believe many of these dissatisfied shooters were at one time "set and forget" scope users, who have since move on to turret twisting and waved goodbye to Leupold as a result of it.

Many shooters who happily fill their freezers with "set and forget" Leupold scope use like them. They zero their scope, use reticle hold over based on experience and make gut piles. So we have two user groups requiring different things from Leupold and the two groups report different results from their Leupold scopes. I believe both sides.

I believe the dissatisfaction is a direct result of the long range shooting and hunting craze that has been popular for the last 15 years. That type of shooting leans toward turret twisting for dialing in range. Most agree, Leupold offers good looking scopes that have graced the cover of magazines for as long as we can remember. They have great eye relief, are light weight and offer very clear glass and some models have several reticle offerings.

One area where they failed is in the reticle choices of their VX5-HD line. This is a scope many can afford and it has many desirable features, but they only offer one reticle choice, in their 2-10 model, a wide duplex, illuminated or not. Why they can't offer the same scope with a reticle like their B&C or the Firedot #4 is a secret to them. Also, why offer a busy reticle in a second focal plain scope when the values of the reticle are only accurate on the highest setting?

We all have a right to expect any of their scopes to have reliable click adjustments and I believe they should clearly state a scope is designed for "set and forget" use or a scope designed to have it's turrets twisted.

If they make a reliable scope in the 2-10x42 and 3-15x42 range that has reliable adjustments and three or four reticle choices they will sell many of them, it is that simple. That type of scope will cover all big game needs.

I am sure hey are aware of their scopes short comings and I also believe they are making money in spite of it. Just keep the weight under 20 ounces.

I've also had these issues with Leupold scopes, and had a zero loss issue on a set and forget type Leupold which cost me a hunt. Leupold was once a favorite, but that is no longer the case.

Doug, thanks for posting this thread. Hope it will do some good.

Same here, I have been mostly a set and forget type of hunter but constantly have had to re zero the scopes. My one Leupold with the tall turret they install does not track well at all. These are major problems to the point where I won't buy them anymore and recommend that others don't either. I love everything else about them and hope they fix these issues.

I find it HARD to believe someone has had every single problem a scope could possibly have with one single brand of scope. MY experience is 100% the opposite. WTF?

I don`t think comparing a low dollar scope with the internals of a high dollar scope is a fair comparison.I am a set and forget scope person.The only Leupold I have had fail was my own fault as I dropped the rifle from a tree stand.I have had Kahles,Zeiss,Swarovskis not track as advertised.I will admit that tracking on my Leupolds sometimes has been a pain.Considering the price I paid ,I really did not expect better.The thing is once sighted in they hold their zero,at least for me.You can pick apart almost any product made if you have a mind to.Thanks to Doug for the opportunity to list your problems.Huntz

I really like my VX-6 scopes (about a dozen) but on most, the magnification ring is very difficult to turn and nearly impossible to turn when it’s cold, requiring both hands.

For the most part, I’m a set and forget shooter and I like the B&C and LRD reticles.

Doug, all I ask for is a reasonably priced 4x with a duplex or heavy duplex reticle. If they are only going to make 1 standard fixed 4x I understand that, it's not a big market, but it REALLY should be a regular duplex.

Thanks Doug for your effort here as it is much appreciated. That being said, I personally have about a dozen Leupold scopes, with only two currently sitting on top of rifles. I’ve personally had issues with Leupolds not holding zero and not tracking correctly. I rarely dial, so I can sort of overlook the tracking issue to a point, but cannot consider a scope with the potential to lose zero as one that will be used on any travel hunt whatsoever, and most times on local hunts as well.

I also think that it is a fatal error for Leupold to put out any product at any price point knowing that there is a significant portion of their customer base having issues with the basic functions of their scopes, no matter the price point, and hoping that their warranty service will appease their customers’ growing distrust of their products. It’s true that they still hold a significant portion of the light weight and compact scope market, but that market is shrinking as the long range shooting trend continues to grow. As the distrust of their scopes continues to grow and become more well known, they will be forced to either markedly improve or be forced out of business. I also find it odd how Leupold can be unaware of the extent of the issue, where all that one has to do is to do a search of any shooting forum, even internationally, and find tons of recent issues with Leupold products.

As Koshkin and others stated plainly in the other recent Leupold thread, Leupold has been shockingly mismanaged, sourced parts from areas with terrible quality control, and put out a known inferior/defective product hoping their warranty will keep customers happily buying Leupold products. I hate to be the one to tell them, it won’t.

Lastly, personally, I have enough distrust of their scopes holding zero, that no matter what they do at this point to improve the issues with their scopes, I will now always look elsewhere first for other scope solutions, and only consider Leupold scopes for informal practice range work. Sadly, many folks agree with me, and that number continues to grow. Why can’t they make a product people trust anymore? Nightforce does it, and so does SWFA. Why not Leupold?

Leupold does not care, nor will they do anything about it. They have repeatedly denied that they have issues even to military organizations, all but calling people liars- then when forced to see the failures first hand make every excuse in the book, swear they’ll fix it... and nothing happens.


But don’t worry, In the next year they’ll be another wave of rumors saying that Leupold has fixed everything just like there was when VX3 was new, Mark 8, Mark 6, VX6, VX6HD, VX5, Mark 5, etc, etc.








Shoot more.









SWFA SS is $300 and works. Every time, every day.

I’m around 50% for failure with “set and forget” leupolds that are newer than Vari-X series.

Its a definite FIX THE INTERNALS !

Doug, this is a good thread, the Leupold bash has been going on for way too long. My experience is all positive with Leupold.

A typical bash thread leads to piling on, many posts for no reason, that is common here.

True dat.....

Dear Leupold,
I find a lot to like about the scopes such as glass, weight, appearance, and eye box. But after having the erector fail on one and tracking issues on another I am not confident in your product. For my dedicated hunting rifle, I need to have confidence. After a thousand shots I should not be concerned. Yes, it was repaired. I have no complaints with the service. I would recommend you design a new erector system, and make a concerted effort to regain our confidence in your products. There are too many known quality alternatives out there for me to spend my money on a product I have no confidence in lasting thousands of shots or taking bumps and hits while retaining zero. I would truly like to have made in USA Leupolds on my rifles, but you need to earn me back.

Edit: I would add, that if the CEO is on a hunting show again, discuss how the product is good for the consumer rather than repeatedly commenting on how they are satisfying the shareholders.

Well, the first thing I would like for Leupold to do is make a FFP hunting scope with reliable itnernals. There are not that many of them and that is a niche they can clearly address.

Just look at the popularity of the SWFA SS 3-9x42 on this forum.

I look at a fair number of scopes and to me, Mark 5 HD is a clear step up in consistency over Mark 4 and Mark 6, just like VX-5HD and VX-6HD are a clear step up over VX-3 and the like.

I bet if Leupold makes a 2-10x42FFP hunting scope with a covered windage turret and locking elevation turret with zero stop.

With an intelligently designed reticle and if they manage to keep the price under $900, they will make a killing. If they can't figure how to do the reticle the right way for this, I'll design one for them pro bono.

ILya

Leupold has milked it long enough Doug.

You'd be better off talking SWFA into building what most guys around here want, which in my opinion is a light weight fixed 6 or 3-9x with the MQ reticle and nicer glass.

Cracks me up to think of how many guys in the classifieds thought they were getting a sweet deal on a Leupold that had been back for warranty work 80 times.

Go to Midway and search Leupold with a 600.00 max (SWFA 3X9) and see what compares.

Short answer - nothing.

All my Leupolds are long gone, replaced with the SWFA 3x9. I remember chasing zero, tapping after adjustments and mystery zero shifts from session to session. Now it is as easy as shoot - measure - adjust and be done.

Tracking, return to zero, failure to hold zero, inconsistent turret value.

Im a set and forget hunter who likes to reload and shoot. I have owned Leupold scopes of the $200-$400 range. My first was a Vari-X II 3-9, a matte later model purchased in the late 90's. I was relatively new to rifle looney-ism then, but that highly touted $200 scope wouldn't track (my $200 Nikon Buckmaster seemed to do just fine). It was a bear to zero, I got fed up and figured I just got a bad one, so sent it in. It came back with a note saying something about the erector but still wouldn't track, so off it went. I went on to purchase many more Leupold scopes due to their reputation at the time. I had two VX-II 2-7's ($300 scopes when they came out with click adjustments). I loved there compactness and eye relief. One was mounted on a 257 Roberts. After a while some of my pet loads wouldn't do better than 3-4" at 100 yds. I cleaned the hell out of the barrel, went through the bedding, checked mounts, nothing fixed it. Finally I thought just quite possibly the scope was to blame. I put a tasco 3-9 on it that was laying in a desk drawer and sure enough, MOA groups again. Sent it in, note with something about the erector came back. Never mounted it, didn't trust it. Then the adjustments on the other 2-7 went wonky, replaced it with a weaver classic 2-7 which gave me comparable eye relief and size, still have that scope and still going strong. I had a VX-III 1.75-6 on a 375 that did well. Another VX-III 1.5-5 was mounted on a CZ550 375, after mounting there was particles all over the inside of the objective. I sent it in, came back clean. After some shooting particles re-appeared, sent it in again. Came back fixed and particles appeared again after shooting. 3rd time in it came back with a note saying the front ring cant be within 1" of the objective. After this I was fed up, haven't purchased a new Leupold since. I have purchased and had good luck with M-8 4x, FX-II 6x and some older Vari-X II's (prior to early 90's).

I still don't spend a ton of money on riflescopes, I reserve my high end glass purchases for Binos. I now use Burris FFII (several without an issue), Weavers, Nikons, Sightron, and Bushnell. I had one older Nikon monarch UCC 2-7 go wonky on me. The power ring went fubar. I don't dial them, and the thought has never crossed my mind because I don't feel the adjustments are repeatable enough. They are however good enough to zero without much fuss, and stay there.

Everytime I consider another new Leupold for a lightweight hunting rifle, I see that what I want is no longer offered. The LRD reticle is absent, as is the 1.75-6, or 3-9 compact. I would love for Leupold to fix the mechanicals and would go back, however I wont until I hear that they have addressed the issue. As someone on here put it, sending them in for warranty work is a fools errand. Until then, there are plenty of Burris FFII and older M-8's to be had.

Ditto for me. Gone are the days of shooting in adjustments, tapping all over the erector and tube to get the adjustments to actually adjust. If they fixed the Erector issues I would be back into Leupold no questions asked.

Dear Leupold,

I've had at least one hunting rifle take a fall .when i checked the scope for holding zero ,it was perfect. It was a Leupold vari x iic 3-9x40.thank you for a quality item. I own several Leupolds. Its your erection system that supposedly causes grief though.

Hate it when the erection system causes grief ...

My problems with them.
I have two that I lothe to zero.
Way too many shots chaseing zero.


Pretty bad when I put a $30 pawn shop Tasco on a rifle, fire a couple shots and it's perfect.
Then shoot my rifle with a Leupold 20 times to get it close.



Which is the better scope on that day?

High bean is on to something.
SWFA needs to look at what Leupold does right on a hunting scope.
I don't need turrets, dont want them.
Could accept short ones if they lock, so that I don't accidently move them.

Owning one for 16 yrs and never a problem but I don't twist turrets. The B&C reticle is pretty much all I use.

Leupold has been getting feedback for years. They aren’t listening. Instead it’s a race to the bottom with cheaper scopes.

It seems there is a bit of GROUP THINK going on here regarding disparaging comments directed at Leupold. Most doing the griping are "dialers" who expect Nightforce/SWFA mechanics. I am an "old school" hunter, you know, a guy who can actually shoot standing without a stick and can actually shoot prone without a bipod.....who can actually read wind and not need a ranging device to estimate shooting distance....I digress.
Leupold should take with a grain of salt the bickering. Most of these guys could not hit a barn if shooting standing, sitting or prone without some kind of CRUTCH DEVICE.

As far as I am concerned, most hunters sight in 2" high at 100 and never touch the scope afterwards. The capacity to hold zero (recoil resistance) and no fogging, etc. are the primary variables involved when forming an opinion of the brand.

Let the "dialers" buy their cumbersome, HEAVY, scopes as a crutch......hopefully, one day they too will learn how to shoot like the old timers......(much sarcasm intended).....
.

You are waaaaaaay out of touch and reality old timer with all due respect and your motivations of the naysayers are waaay out of touch as well. For starters....

Get out of your small little hunting experience bubble. There's a brand new world waiting even though you've seen it all I'm sure....

I know some guys have trouble with reading comprehension but.....This is not a thread for all the Leupold defenders, Doug is obviously trying to gather legitimate information from those that HAVE had Leupold failures and are no longer using Leupold products because of it. Responses from the guys that have a 20 year old Leupold that’s had 2 boxes of shells shot through it in its life and hasn’t been adjusted since 1997 need not reply. Go on the other thread to defend your Leupold.

Hmmm....do you shoot sticks? Bipod? Ranging devices? Can you read wind? Or, better yet, when was the last time you shot standing using a sling and no stick? When was the last time you shot sitting with no crutch? When was the last time you shot prone without bags or bipod?

I see it at my range all the time. The young guys are pretty [bleep] marksmen without their crutches.....

Maybe, you forgot the primary building blocks of marksmanship.....no offense.....

Your first mistake is to think that the guys bashing Leupold don't shoot. The whole reason they do, is that they do....

Your post is off base and in the wrong thread.

My reading comprehension is fine. What Doug needs to realize is that the MAJORITY of the complaints revolve around mechanics....DIALING...something the young guys tend to do a LOT....it may be a legitimate issue for that crowd but not for the majority of hunters who sight in and move on and seldom dial.....

By the way, I am an Alaskan too. And, if you meet me at Birchwood, we can maybe have a "friendly" bet regarding shooting skills......you have been CHALLENGED!

Oh geez....

You may be on to something

I always wondered if internet shooting challengers have thoughts of this song playing in the back ground when the gauntlet is thrown.

If I lived in California, I too would be listening to all kinds of music.....no offense....

You are correct it is an issue with the mechanics, if they are going to make a scope the mechanics have to work correctly. You also don’t add the newest whiz bang CDS or whatever system to adjust for shots at different ranges if the mechanics don’t work in the simplest of tasks like setting and holding a zero. Just because in your uses your Leupolds have been fine does not negate that they are making products that have piss poor internals and don’t work as advertised for many others, hence this thread.

And I don’t live in Alaska anymore or I’d happily take you up on said challenge.

LMMFAO... move on Deliverance... wrong thread...

Doug,

What these guys have said.


Below is a thread I started in 2016 from my experience with a Leupold scope:
.

"Had a Leupy VX-6 go haywire Thursday when making a final one click left adjustment on Hope's Tikka T-3X 7-08.

We'd both shot several good to excellent groups previous to this, with this load in this gun with this scope, a VX-6 2-12 purchased in Dec 2015. Had her pretty much set up for rifle season coming up, but wanted to just do a final validation. She was doing the shooting, and she shot a good 3 shot group at 100 (slightly over an inch), an even better 3 shot group at 200. All shots were slightly right of center - all shots were <1.5" from center black diamond. She wanted it just a little left, so I took the scope one click left. Next shot was 6 inches left - what the heck! Took it back one click right to original - next shot was over 8 inches right of the last shot - about 2.5" right of any of the first six fired.

Needless to say she was not happy! What followed then was a exercise in futility for about 5 more shots of chasing shots by adjusting both windage and elevation and getting nothing remotely near what was expected. The second target looked like few I've seen the shots were so bad.

The scope was mounted in Talleys, torqued to their specs. Ammo was handloaded, 120 gr Nosler BT, Nosler brass, 2000MR powder, runout checked to less than .002". She was using front and rear rests and it was essentially calm. She's ex-military, expert marksman qualified and is a very good shot.

We were at our farm doing various chores, so the barrel was never allowed to get hot - this occurred over the course of 2-3 hours.

Yesterday (Friday), I replaced the VX-6 with a Trijicon 3-9 I had on hand (had to run to MIdway to get 1" mounts). Gun shot great, after 2 shots it was dead center 2.5" high at 100 yds for me. Turned it over to her, and three shots and a couple of small adjustments for her liking and she was set.

Called Leupold, they said send it in, so I did. We'll see how this turns out."


For the rest of the story, they returned my scope after an "erector adjustment" and it has tracked acceptably since. This is my main beef with them. Plus really mushy click adjustments. Not what you'd expect in a scopes in their price range.

You have been CHALLENGED!

What a phaggot...

BS....Leupold puts out a scope with guts that perform after repeated situations of harsh treatment. PRS shooters start using their scopes and say their amazing. Price point comes is a smidge higher than a SWFA SS 4-15x42 with good glass and you’re ripping your pants pocket apart to get at your wallet...Just saying 😬😎

Are you Higbean talking to ME? Are you talking to Me? (With a thick De Niro accent) Kalifornia boy?

elkhuntinguide,

Geez...I thought juvenile braggadocio was par for the course in this site.....

Another going on ignore, sigh...

bludog,

I am devastated. I live for your approval....tsk, tsk....lighten up man, you are taking yourself too seriously

Fundamentals of shooting...Check
No front stabilizing device...Check
No rear bag.........................Check

Barn at 650 yards.......Check

You need to hit a 12”x14” inch vent duct fan on the side of the barn... You can’t sit or lay prone for the shot, undergrowth is waist high. Your options are one....Off hand because that’s what your claiming.

What percentage would you give yourself for hitting that vent fan with a medium to big critter chambered rifle? 50/50? 75%? 100?

Reason for my question. Your experience speaks to range shooting. Put your claims in my world, the real world of hunting, and I see you having to pass on animals that I would be putting in the dirt. 😎

Beaver 10,

I have probably owned/own over 50 Leupold scopes over the years mostly hunting scopes. I tolerated the fact I sighted them in and seldom ever dialed after that. Except for one that broke the crosshairs (shooting a 30/8mm mag), they held zero. What the scopes would not reliably do is show fidelity to the mechanical clicks. Meaning, a 1/4" click was seldom a 1/4" click at 100 yards. I got around it by burning up more ammo than necessary.

So, these guys have a point when they say the mechanics are shaky in some models. No question. But, I still have 6 Leupolds.

IC,
I still have a few Leupold’s..Heck, I live in Oregon...But, I too migrated away from them after spending a week working on a couples house who had just retired from Leupold after 25 years of service. Both, husband and wife were in the capacity of complete understanding of the back sliding of this once great company because of the positions each held within the company.

With sadness, they explained in-depth the changes that had taken place with ownership and investors. It was an unfortunate story, albeit truthfully told.

I once owned over 20 Leupold’s. I’m down to 7. I would gladly throw new cash at Leupold if and when they finally make a scope that will withstand the occasional “sorry’s and oops” of hunting and repeated knocks of a 300 magnum underneath.

Until then, I don’t bash, I just buy different scopes...😎

PS

I’d love to see you shoot off hand at distance...That’s a solid skill.

Beaver10,

Sling? How much wind? What power scope? Reticle? Caliber/bullet?

What our favorite game used to be was to set 6 cans of beer up on a board at a measured 600 yards and shoot them with a fixed 6 power scope prone with no rest, bag, bipod etc. with a regular duplex reticle. We each had 6 rounds. Man with the lowest score would buy beer that night for the group. I never bought beer for anyone in three years of playing. Damn, I miss being young!

I’ll play...

Sling, sure.....
Wind....5-7 mph consistent, with gusts 10-15mph
Shot is 30* downhill
Scope... Variable 4-18
Reticle...Duplex - to keep it sporty
300 ultra 11.5lbs
Bullet 180g NAB

Touch off Time is 25 seconds

😎

No shooting jacket. 300 Ultra? Hmmm......got to try it this weekend....but, with a 6.5.....(still waiting for my .300 PRC)......

Worth repeating, both for the content and for the source.

Cool....Don’t forget to bring your meat hauler next....I’ve got an animal down and I need you to play mule 😬😎

And this is where the chit storm is going to start. I've had more problems with Leupold than any other scope manufacture. They don't dial for schit and some have failed to hold zero, then some have lost all ability to even adjust. Like someone else mentioned on page one, one of the first posts even, they need to beef up the erectors. The twin bias erector on the VX3 is a joke. Someone please tell me why they stopped making the VX3 and went straight to a VX3i model, which was supposed to be better, but then it looks more like a fake chinese knock-off. Now, you see chinese knock offs that even Leupold can't distinguish from the real ones... Now going back to the VX3: I really like the weight, size, and looks of those models. The glass is even pretty good, I just wish I didn't have 2 in a row take a chit on me. I thought the first one was just a fluke (VX3 3.5-10x40), but then when the other owe went to hell, I decided I would not own another Leupold scope. Hell, I wouldn't even piss on their building if it were on fire.....

You and I and many other's know this first hand. Doug sure as hell should know this.... I stand by what I said in my last post. If Leupold is listening, please fix your erectors. Like someone else said, use something like what SWFA uses and rock on. I may go back to them, if I knew I could trust them to track and hold zero, like a good scope is supposed to. And by good, I don't mean a $1,000.00+ rifle scope. SWFA makes and sells them for $299 regular price, and $250 on sale for their fixed SS models. Another good thing about SWFA is they stand behind their products 100%. Leupold has a stellar warranty as well, so they aren't all bad. But they could be so much better. Like I've said many times before, I could care less how good a Warranty is. I'd rather have a scope that is going work and keep working. I even have cheaper Burris FFII rifle scopes that have been on multiple rifles and are over 20 years old, that still function great. Sadly, I haven't been that lucky with Leupold...

Good post..

Leupold has fixed so many of them you’d think they’d know by now..

They don’t care..

Good luck, I don’t think they’re going to change a thing.

But tracking, click values, straight reticle and RTZ would be a nice place to start. After that make the side focus so it doesn’t come loose after a few hundred rounds.

When I decided I was done with Leupold I had 17 of them. I’m down to 3.. too bad

Higbean, that guy is a troll plain and simple. We know who shoots and who pretends to shoot around here...

Doug,
Thank you for starting this thread. I wish there was some way of making SURE people at Leupold that were in a position to make changes, read this thread.

I hunt more than I used to (approx. 30 days a year) and shoot a lot less than I used to ( just for sight ins and as much practice as I can squeeze in). So here is my experience with Leupold scope problems:

Sighting in, with some of my newer Leupolds, the adjustments are inconsistent in how far the next shot or several, that the impact occurs. Tapping on the turrets seems to help settle in the adjustments, but should not be needed. I have wasted a lot of ammunition sighting in some of my Leupold scopes and chasing non-existing accuracy proplems because of this.

I am retired on a fixed income, but I would be willing to pay an additional $100 over the cost of the present price of any leupold scope that I would buy if it was upgraded with a new reliable tracking erector system. Additional reticle choices would be nice, but I could live with the other already good features of their scopes. I like my rifles light and well balanced and I am not going to mount a heavy scope (over 16-17 ounces) on them and destroy their handling characteristics. Thanks, RJ

Doug,

Thanks for posting this and I'll play along as well. My complaints, actually may have been fixed with the VX Freedom, I'm not sure though. My complaint is mainly with the VX2, the magnification on it is lacking compared t others in the magnification range, and yes the adjustments are inconsistent. I noticed this with the last VX2 I bought, but thought I was crazy at first. I didn't call Leupold and complain as I usually set it and forget it, but it was noticeable. I have a few VX3i's I need to sight in when I return home in August, so hopefully they don't have that issue, but I'm not getting my hopes up.

Another thanks to Doug for the effort.
Most of my scopes are swaro Z3's but I do have 5 older leupolds which I like. I am a set and forget kinda guy and don't shoot much past 400 yards. Some of my scopes have stayed sighted in for years( and hundreds of shots) , the Z3 on my 300 H&H went many years worth of hunting, shooting and falling before I had to make a small adjustment.
But I will say on pretty much all the scopes, often the case is 1 click doesn't equal 1". I get that the swfa are great scopes and seem to be mechanical durable. With the number of leupolds sold you would think they could come up with better internals and it's hard to imagine in mass production it would cost them much more than $10 a scope.

That right there! Clearly, he's not alone, as demonstrated by all the people who've dropped extra bucks for just that one thing, or have decided packing an extra half-pound around to get reliability is a good trade off. Might not even have to design one for the S&F crowd; the old friction knobs seemed to hold just fine once you get them where you want them.

The last Leupold that I attempted to sight in my cousin purchased fir 750 dollars, new out of the box the adjustments were hit and miss. Scope dials said 1/4 moa adjustments, but who know what they actually were. Got the pol 1/4 right, adjusted 1/4 left but no movement. Adjusted another 1/4 and the pol moved 2 1/2” left. This was a set and forget scope.

I’ve had rifles shooting 1/2” at 100 yards suddenly open groups to over 1 1/2” with a Leupold scope install a Bushnell Elite 4200 and groups shrunk back to 1/2”

Takes to much time and Ammo to sight in a Leupold

I have eight Leupold scopes made from 1985 - 2018. I set and forget. The ONLY problem I've had with them i on 2 or 3 the locking ring of the ocular will not stay in place, even while dry firing. There have been no mysterious loss of zero problems.

Leupold should ditch the wide duplex as standard and go back to the regular duplex. They should also go back to reasonable pricing for a reticle change.

Doug I hate that despite your efforts this thread has gone astray. I hope you take the time to weed through the crap and get to the facts. It would be nice if a mod would cut the non relevant post, including this one I suppose. I currently own a VX-6HD that I use for dialing, in the past I’ve always gone to the SWFA SS HD series for that. So far I’ve had no issues with the 6 but every time I open this forum I question if this one is going to fail when I need it. I keep considering trading it for another SS 5-20, and since SWFA just ran them on sale for $859 last week it was a real consideration. The 6 HD is in my opinion one of the best hunting scopes on the market, but if it’s going to fail it’s of no use to me. Nobody needs a big turret on top with a zero stop that has to be used as set and forget after they pay $1500 for it.

Bottom line you are correct, this issue is effecting Leupold owners who’ve had no issue with their scopes. I have a rather expensive hunt in September that I’m no longer sure which scope will be going with me. If the 6HD fails Leupold will fix it but they can’t replace the hunt that had to be booked almost a year in advance. Good luck and thank you for your efforts here.

Doug: I don't know the people at Leupold that you know but I'd be surprised if you went to them with suggestions and they did anything more than just nod and smile and say thank you.

I love the Leupold warranty

I used to buy reticles to put into used scopes as it was inexpensive.

I bought some laser boresighter internal shells.

Sighting in a minox, or Burris, if I quit turning the dial the laser dot on the wall quits moving.

On leupolds the dot Keeps squirming around on the wall If I turn a turret. It's almost as if it's alive!

Get rid of the gold ring. It clashes with stainless.

I seriously wonder if the popularity of "used" Vari-X series scopes was a part of the reasoning behind the "big-changes" when the VX series was launched? I've gotten rid of almost every VX series scope I've ever purchased in favor of picking up Vari-X series scopes when I find them.

Vari-X series scopes have been pretty trouble-free for me. The few times I've experienced demonstrable tracking issues, most of the time it's been resolved by re-mounting the scope and torquing the ring-tops properly rather than "farmer-tight". I'm an avid shooter, but I don't shoot for work and don't shoot competitively.

I HATE the wide-duplex. It's too wide to offer me any sort of sub tension hold-off for elevation or windage.

If I could wave a magic-wand, I'd love to see a "Fine" version of the wind-plex. Something on the order of their TMR but in MOA. I hunt very open country, finding the reticle during legal shooting light isn't a problem.

If it weren't for Zeiss/Meopta's adjustments and power-ring being opposite Leupold, I'd own a bunch of them and far fewer Leupold scopes. I loved the image, reticle, and tracking of the 2 4.5-14x50's I had but for me growing up shooting exclusively Leupold, the Zeiss/Meopta is backwards and muscle-memory is a thing.

I know less than nothing about the costs of manufacturing optics. But, is it too much to ask that a US manufactured riflescope in the $400-$600 range track reliably?

I still own almost 70 Leupold scopes with about 1/2 of them being either 4-12x40 or 4.5-14x40 VAri-X series and a fair number of 6.5-20's as well. I haven't given up on Leupold, but I don't buy any NIB product of theirs anymore, it's all used Vari-X series stuff. Makes for a tough road when I have more confidence in a 15+yr old $300 used scope than I do in a $600+ NIB scope from the same maker.

I like the ability to dial if the necessity presents itself. I would like capped low profile turrets with proper markings once exposed. Similar to the SHV line. I don’t need 40 mils of elevation or windage. Single turn like the SB PMII 10x42 would be ideal in a hunting scope.

For the general market, SFP in MOA would suffice but I prefer FFP with an intelligent modification of the #4 reticle. 2-12x42 is perfect for me. European style ocular. No illumination, parallax adjustment or other unnecessary gadgetry.

It goes without saying that a redesigned erector is a must. They were on to something with the CDS but their erector can’t be trusted. The CDS system makes sense for a general hunting scope though when loads are confirmed.

The original Leupolds are elegant scopes that look great on just about any rifle. While the glass can be quite good, the view is often tight when compared to others. Their eye relief is great. The latest versions are not as visually appealing but I understand the latest tacticool craze drives the design.

I hate their duplex reticles personally. Standard and wide...

Vista is slowly killing off Weaver in support of Bushnell anyway, why not simply purchase the rights to the Weaver line if it were cost effective. No need to reinvent the wheel, a VX/FX Microtrac would solve the problem. The Weaver Classic line has been light and rock solid reliable in it's current for since the late 80s. An optic combining the best features of that line and the VX-Freedom/FX-II would be a real force in the market. Personally I'd GLADLY purchase an optic that combines Leupold's glass with Weaver's reliability. The FX scopes have been stagnant for years, A US made K4 would be a solid seller.

Leupold doesn't care. This is a complete waste of time. It's like telling an alcoholic to quit drinking while he is stepping into the bar....

Can you guys not respect Doug's thread ?

I hate to say it, but if the service department can’t tell the bozos in engineering and production what is wrong with their scopes, that ship is taking on water with another spread of torpedoes inbound. You’d think they would figure out how much overhead is spent on repair and replacement and fix the main issues to reduce costs. The fact that they will fix legions of scopes without addressing the problems tells me their production costs are so low for the current designs that it’s cheaper to pay service techs than beef up internals. There are 2 ways to make a lifetime warranty work. One is to have a product cheaply made and sold for a premium price so that it is cheaper to just replace the defective ones and keep on selling rather than fix the problems. The other is to build a quality product with a very low failure and return rate. At some point, marketing can’t overcome the obvious. Happy Trails

Nice designs, so-so execution. I like lightweight scopes on hunting rifles and decent glass, Leupold offers these and I have been using them for 40+ years but adjustments are inconsistent. My hunting has recently changed and I will be a turret twister. Leupold will not be considered.

I’ve owned 1 Leupold scope in nearly 50 years of shooting.And I bought that one at less than half the retail price.I couldn’t tell you where it is now.There is,and always has been,other options at a cheaper price.Value to the dollar has always been the problem with Leupold to me...

I'd like to thank all of you who contributed to this thread. I have been forwarding the constructive posts to some of the higher ups at Leupold and will follow up next week with a conference call. I appreciate the input.

All I can do is try. Mom always said I was "responsible for the effort, not the outcome".

Dear Leupold, when I was a young hunter back in the 1970's my dad taught me Leupold scopes were the best and I was a loyal customer to your brand for many years. I bought dozens of your scopes throughout the years. Like many shooters and hunters today, I thought I had the best and fervently believed in your awesome American company.

Then in the 1990's I began to shoot precision rifles a lot and to my dismay I realized the point of impact changed as I dialed the magnification ring. What? I couldn't believe my beloved American scope company was selling me junk! And that was only the beginning! Canted reticles and anything to do with dialing was a joke! You betrayed me and I have since replaced you with others.

The solution to the Leupold dilemma is to replace upper management so that well known technology can be implemented. I doubt this will happen because there are so many hunters and shooters who don't shoot enough to know the difference that they will continue to keep you in business. Indeed, I'm confident you know this very well and it's part of your business plan. Until then, SWFA and Nightforce will continue to thrive on your lost market share and until it hurts enough, I doubt you'll respond to guys like me. You've known about these problems for a long time and have chosen to respond with deflection, denial, and a great return policy that pacifies the gullible. Don't assume I'll forgive you easily.

Thanks Doug. That is all we can ask. If they are formally informed and do nothing, at least to the Campfire members, their credibility will be even worse. On the other hand, we can be optimistic and hope for improvement. RJ

Exactly. Giving up without trying makes no sense to me. I'd like to think, having been in the industry as a family business since 1957, I have somewhat of a voice with the companies I buy from.

I think that would be a home run as well.

IT all comes down to this.......are they(leupold) making money.....YESSS!!!

Thanks for the effort Doug, it really is appreciated by most of us around here, as for the others....well haters gonna hate.

That sounds good except the experts here say Weavers ain't worth a shyt for tracking/holding zero either.

Roughly five years ago Leupold informed me there is no erector problem... LOL

I want to see 100% US Made riflescopes. I doubt anything short of that will interest me. Stop outsourcing...

I also recall a vendor here saying they'd not do business with Leupold because of their policies. There's lot's of alternatives.

You need to forward the whole thread to them. Cherry picking seems to be a grand thing here. I see it all the time. When you have guys that actually shoot and know what they are talking about, that have multiple Leupold failures and swear they will not buy another Leupold again, that is the kind of thing Leupold needs to know and see first hand. Lets not sugar coat this for them. If they would step up their game and offer scopes that actually work, there are many of us that would work our way back to them. Also, I think it's a good thing you are doing....but as another poster said, you will probably just get a nod and smile and thankyou from them and nothing is going to get fixed. They are happy with the way things run. Somehow, they make enough money to stay in business and they do have loyal customers that probably very rarely ever shoot their rifles, but love the way their light Leupold rifle scope looks on top of their newest wizbanger... Good luck Doug, you are going to need it...

They are a beautiful scope, lightweight , compact and their RTZ turret is tops on their twisting scopes. Adjustments are inconsistent. There has to be more going on there(Leupold) then meets the eye since the amount of returns for tracking alone should have caught someones attention by now.

I am not an optics engineer so I cannot say that x brand's erector system is better then y brand's setup. It might be a simple change or a massive change only the engineers know.

In an effort to bring positivity to Doug's thread, I'll contribute my experience.

I've owned a pile of Leupolds over the past 30 years. At one time, I had a VX-III/3 of some sort on every rifle. The last 10 years or so, I started noticing it took more than a few shots to get a new scope on target, change loads and get dialed in, or simply make a slight adjustment. Suffice to say a click 1/4" at 100 is not accurate. I also noted on new scopes it took 8-12 shots to get them close to zero. Then fine tuning was a matter of triangulation - shoot 2-3 shots to see where the center of the pattern ended up, move about half what the group was indicating, shoot a few more.

About 10 years ago I started seriously elk hunting. I've taken more than the occasional fall, rifle landing somewhere other than some prime scope up position. I've shot as many as 12 shots getting it re-zeroed. Then there is the year-to-year repeatability. I routinely shot 5-10 shots, with adjustments between groups of shots to ensure zero.

Enter NightForce SHV about 2 years ago. Gone are the sighting in, year-to-year zero, click repeatability - all gone. Just this AM, I zeroed my 338 Fed. I manually boresighted it, first shot was less than 1" from the bullseye at 25 yards. A couple of clicks, shot 2 cuts 6 o-clock. Move the target to 100 yards shoot 1, move several clicks in both direction, shoot one more - done.

I've run tall target tests on 2 of my NF SHV and they click repeatedly and are within 1-3% of exactly where they should be. I chuck up the variance to group dispersion shooting ammo that is 0.75 MOA.

I have 3 NF SHV on my main hunting rifles and see no reason to go back to Leupold. I'd love for Leupold to get their erector (or is it erection <G>) issues straightened out. As others have said, this is a known problem to Leupold.

I think the issue here is Leupold sells a ton of scopes to set/forget guys - likely the vast majority of their market. If you're only shooting a 100 rounds a year, this issue likely sounds alot like whining. If a guy shoots more than a few hundreds rounds a year, and especially if he doesn't like to play the centroid of group sigh-in game, better products exist. It comes down to a business decision for them - do you want to include the segment of the market that has brought this issue forward - or do you want to be content with the set/forget crowd and lose market share to the guys that demand more. I have no idea how big a segment the "Leupold bashers" are but with sales of NF, SWFA, and a few others, it would seem like a substantial piece of market they are missing. It comes down to that business choice.

Can you not STFU Hall Monitor?

Hill Country Rifles has spoken (and performed demonstrations) to the folks at Leupold multiple times over the years regarding the issues. Their words have always fell on deaf ears. Could be wrong, but I seriously doubt they'll actually listen to Doug and make changes.

They'll just rename a series VX-8ii-R or whatever and call it "new and improved".

Did not know that, Thanks. They build and debug a ton of rifles per year so they should know. I hope you are wrong .

I don't think anyone here hates Doug. He's a good man to have around and his efforts are honorable as hell.... If Doug talks to Leupold and gets some changes done there, that will be better for us and Leupold. As far as your statement "haters gonna hate", well after you get burned so many times, it's hard not to hate. Let Leupold build a fairly lightweight scope that resembles their VX3 line, but add a quick focus eye piece, a good reticle (like the Burris ballistic plex, or SWFA MIL Quad), great Leupold glass, and a good erector system (most important change here) and offer it at a comparable price to what SWFA puts out (lets say in a 3-15x42) and let formid test it out for us. If it holds up and works right, I'll bet you'll have a swarm of guys like myself buying one...

I totally agree that this "is the kind of thing Leupold needs to know and see first hand. Lets not sugar coat this for them", however, I not forwarding posts that guys wouldn't piss on their building if it were on fire aren't going to evoke the changes in erectors, returning to zero, tracking, quality control, reticle offerings and cost of reticle changes that have been mentioned here.

I have also sent the link to this thread so I am 100% that they are reading all posts as well.

Doug, the reason for cynicism is because Lowlight from SH actually went to their corporate office and sat down with them to spell out what the issues are and why they were losing market share in the tactical market. Not a lot has changed. I’d like to see them succeed but it’s hard to see past the end of your nose sometimes.

Doug, BSA is about the last person to pay attention to so far on this thread.

Thanks for the effort.

I have said it several times, I used to be a Leupold or bust type of guy, almost every picture I have of me with a dead animal from years past my rifle wears a Leupold. But after owning dozens of them I have lost all confidence in them. When you buy a scope from a myriad of other companies and when sighting in a load and the bullet moves the correct amount per your adjustment its just so damn refreshing. There are still times that I wish some of my scopes were more trim than they are but I will not sacrifice an accurate instrument for 6 or 7 oz of svelteness for an instrument that is a complete crap shoot mechanically. And a guy doesn’t have to spend $1000 to get a scope that works as intended mechanically. I just recently put a Nikon Monarch tactical series on a Tikka 223, and adjustments are dead on balls after 100 rounds through it at various ranges. C’mon Leupold pull your head out of your ass!

I applaud the effort Doug. It's out of your hands after that. Nice work, and let's hope Leupy get it straightened out.

Same here.

I actually do have a bitch, stop making all the scopes for short actions, some of us still use Mauser length actions that require a long tube...would also like to see a slightly smaller occular housing.

No . Someone has to monitor you disrespectful children.

There are lots of things to like about Leupold scopes and I have a bunch of them. However, my recent scope purchases have been other brands. As has been stated ad nauseum, Leupold needs to fix their scopes so that tracking is reliable and zero retention is assured. If they weigh a couple of ounces more that's OK with me.

GFY

I love you too .

Doug,

Most guides I know use Vari X Leupold low power variable scopes. They see the V3i as optically improved yet somewhat more fragile/unreliable. Remember, most of us start with .300 Win levels of recoil and the .338 is very common. The better guides tend to put their scopes through, at least, .375 levels of recoil. Up here, Leupold does very well with fogproofing and recoil resistance. Vari X scopes hold zero, are fogproof and can take recoil. The vast majority of hunters/shooters are set and forget guys.

Again, very few bash Leupold up here. It has a very positive reputation in the "set and forget" community.

I'll second the request to make the cost of reticle changes more reasonable. The price increase on that service was steep. Also that some reticle options be made available again for scope lines. Others have mentioned the LRD, but also the German #4. And I concur with TomM1 regarding the VXIII 1.75-6. Wish it were still available. It's a very sensible hunting magnification range with adequate objective for 6x. I have two of them.

I don't agree with some who have mentioned being willing to pay more for a reliable erector, holding zero/POI repeatability. That's an expected requirement for a scope.

A scope should hold zero, absolutely.

I don’t mind paying for quality but I would absolutely not pay more for reliability. As stated a few pages back I already buy the top of the line Leupold hunting scope. It’s priced correctly assuming it’s reliable 100% period period. Is it?

No optic is 100% reliable, some are better than others.

No doubt. 100% reliable is unrealistic for any manufacturer. The point of the statement should be clear though.

Reliability is THE most important quality a riflescope can have..... period, period. Leupold’s reliability could certainly use some improvement.... they lag WAY behind NF, SWFA, and upper end Bushnell (LRHS, DMR, etc).... there is NO debate about that.

I’ve personally seen “top of the line Leupold hunting scopes” (VX5/VX6) go tits-up on several occasions.... two of them didn’t work straight outta the box.

I’ve still got a couple older Leupolds with 1/2 MOA adjustments... they seem far more robust that the 1/4 MOA models.... maybe there’s something to that?

I can't recall having problems with tracking or not holding zero right off hand but I don't believe there would be this many complaints if it wasn't happening. My only real complaint is minor but click adjustments should click. I've got a $64 Bushnell Banner that clicks as does my 1989 Leupold Vari-X III. My Leupold VX1 & VX3 don't click, the adjustments feel like slight bumps in mud. Not much better than the old friction adjustments.

That said I'll stick with Leupold. They've been a good hunting scope for me. I've never missed a shot because of scope failure. I like their light weight, eye relief, resale value, customer service and they've always treated me right, better than right in some cases. Twice I've sent old scopes back to them for refinishing that I bought used. They were so old the finish had faded to brown. Both times they sent me a new model in the same power explaining the scopes I sent them had been discontinued. No charge and they paid the return freight.

I have owned several, as well as many other brands. For the most part they have been good. I am not a "dialer" more a set and forget. I have seen they do not track as well as other brands. 1/4" is not a 1/4" consistently. Once set they do seem to hold zero. Doing a "ladder" or a "box" with a Leupold is a crap shoot. The friction clicks on some are just Cr**. They have depended on the lifetime warranty for far to long. Many other manufactures offer the same. Like most, it is the erector issues that have turned me off. They can make a good scope, they just don't seem to need to. I would consider a Leupold, but find there are way to many other options to compare too.

1. Do whatever is necessary to fix the tracking and wandering zero problem.

2. Quit trying to kill the fixed powers. As best I can tell the only reticle standard for them is the worthless Wide Duplex, for anything else you go to the Custom Shop.

3. Quit BSing us with marketing hype. Catchy names don't make up for scope failures.

I own several Leupold scopes, almost all of them in the 1-4 or 1.5-5 version.

Three have failed over the years, all with lens units coming apart in the tube. All fixed (or replaced) quickly and without fuss.

What could be done better?
1/ I too have noticed that adjustments are not adjustments on Leupold. For rifles I want to dial, I don't generally buy Leupold. Fix that and I would buy more.

2/ Bring back longer tubes. Not everything is going onto a short action, or a rifle with a Pic Rail. It is just plain silly that the new VX5 range of scopes barely fits on a Remington Long action, and the resulting eye box is not big enough to make it work.

3/ Bring back certain scopes with a gloss option. The 3.5-10, 2-10 type scopes are great on a blued steel and walnut rifle, even better if offered with a gloss black finish.

4/ Don't rely upon the warranty to fix poor quality control. This approach is contemptuous of your customers and costs you more than you know. Leupold scopes struggle to offer value for money when new, think about your complete product lifecycle and where small changes in manufacture could reduce costs in maintenance. Don't discount the idea of dropping warranty to a generous defect only repair, instead of dumb owner negligent damage the scope and you repair it for free. Leupold have strong competition and should review the whole package to be competitive.

5/ If you are going to claim premium quality glass competitive with the Kahles/Swarovski/Zeiss products, then actually deliver it.

6/ Warranty again. A lifetime warranty isn't worth anything when the scope has a hissy fit some time during a two day hike into a hunting spot (or an hour in a helicopter/plane) and the damn rifle won't hit the critter you've come all this way (spent all this money) to shoot.

Design it right, build it right, package it right means you will have satisfied customers.

My bitch is why not make every one of ‘em just like the vari x iic (3-9x40) i just sighted in a 280 with tonight.. I had to make ONE adjustment to zero it.

I have one more...loose the dam “L” on top of scope rings. Tired of so called branding.

Easy now, my scope rings are my status symbol.

To your point....Formidilosus has met with Leupold engineers on a range, shown them their problems...See his post for an understanding of frustration from him and his crew... And, the denial of a scope manufacturer.

I doubt Leupold will give much regard to our thread, members concerns, or hostility.

The Fire is just a small segment of a hunting populace that shoots and hunts more than most who own a Leupold 😎

1. Fix tracking and zero retention, and make adjustments something that happens as a repeatable command rather than a mere suggestion to the optic. I've experienced these problems with multiple scopes, including 2-7s, 1.5-5s, and a 1-4. I like to make low velocity cast bullet loads for practice. I should be able to rely on my notes to easily jump zeros between loads with repeatable adjustments, like "two up and one left at 50 for practice load" Instead I burn ammo and get more fed up. Burris and Nikons have not been a problem for me in this way.

2. Bring back affordable reticle change options.

3. Bring back gloss options

4. Don't feel obligated to make everything look tactical. Such scopes look pretty dorky on a normal rifle.

5. I very much dislike the wide duplex. How you guys could see fit to keep that while dumping something as useful as the LRD is baffling.

As many others have said, I'm holding off on any further Leupold purchases until there's some changes made and the issues are addressed. Even at discounted prices the frustration and unreliability are not worth it. It's a pity to see a once great Amercian brand turning into a turd.

Plenty of scopes readily available that meet the needs described in this thread so why does anyone really care if it says Leupold on their scope. I still have four Leupolds but have not purchased one for 8 years and have not missed them at all. Had two VX3s and an FX3 bite the dust and lost faith. Swarovski, Meopta, Zeiss, S&B and Leica have since replaced my Leupolds and have all worked perfectly.

Leupold knows exactly how many scopes they sell and how many show back up for warranty work. They are in business to make a profit and until that changes, their scopes will also remain unchanged. Nothing in this thread is news to Leupold.

I'll use Meopta till Leupold figures it out.

Reticle change cost needs fixed also

If I was at the reigns, it'd be war on NF and SWFA.

SWFA would be an easy take down with a fixed 6x and 10x 42mm, capped windage, low profile ele w/ zero stop, rip off the MQ reticle to a tee, keep it as light as possible with robust internals that have a ton of travel. Offer a 1" version in MOA for the old guys. $300 for the first couple years.

NF would require a long game and there would be a whole lot of yelling on my part as it's unbelievable that the folks in Beaverton have this much catching up to do.

Seriously Leupold, you had things by the balls....

Doug,

I think it's noteworthy that you want to help "show" Leupold the dissatisfaction from a certain segment of the shooting population. However, Leupold knows the product return rate. You know that. They have received constructive feedback from qualified shooters in military and civilian positions but have made a business decision to offer all-things-to-all-shooters. That is their goal as an outdoor company, to offer consumer grade scopes that satisfy the needs of the general shooting population.

Leupold's goal is not to offer bombproof consumer grade scopes. That is a niche market, and in conflict with offering all-things-to-all-shooters. Again, you know this as well. You haven't been in the optics industry for all these years without knowing this.

This thread isn't going to "show" Leupold anything that they don't already know. However, since you started this thread I hope that you provide unfiltered responses from Leupold. Otherwise it's just a sponsor trying to play facilitator between consumer and manufacturer. We don't need more BS in this interaction with Leupold.

Jason

It’s tough to fix something.... when you’re you’re constantly saying nothing is wrong.

All the while..... you’re “service” department is working 24/7.... but that’s just you’re great “warranty”.... right?

Dog, I'm not sure that the Service Department has been "working".

The clean "bill of health report card" that Leupold gives doesn't necessarily mean much anymore. Scopes will obvious issues have been sent back to owners with a clean report card. This has been noted by different people.

Key people from the Service Department left a few years ago. Some to go work for competitors in the local area.

I think this is another issue that I'd like to see Doug report back to us on. Better yet, have a Leupold rep answer these questions directly. Having a middleman or sponsor, just doesn't offer much extra.

Jason

The really sad thing Doug is that you sell a Chinese made product that gets better tracking and reliability reviews than Leupold does. Surely thats a heads up for them and for you.

Leupold offers a CDS turret , so at the least they should back that up with something under them that dials reliably. Ive had 2 VX3 that didn't, and am now over the brand. I saw it as a fundamental engineering problem and biffed them in the bin. A complete waste. If I had had them repaired I would have never trusted them in the future, and it wouldn't have been fair to have them repaired and sell them on.

Well schidt, let’s talk shopping...

Thats it ! I would also like them to update the styling, the gold rings are like white side wall tires, very yesterday.

The only issues I have had are getting them dialed in. There's really no telling where the dialing will take me. Once I get them there I have had no problems. Two VX1, two VX2 and two VX3. Interestingly have have several of the Leupold Redfields that don't have the same issue.

I said in a previous post that I would be willing to pay an extra $100 over the present price of a Leupold scope if it was equipped with a NEW, TOTALLY RELIABLE erector system. Another member said it shouldn't cost more than $10 a scope for a good erector system. I will not go that far but even if it cost Leupold $50 per scope for a NEW, TOTALLY RELIABLE erector system, can you imagine how much extra profit $50 per scope would make for the company. Even the bean counters should be "all in" for that. What's not to like?

I really like the classic looks, smaller ocular long eye relief and light weight of many Leupold scopes, but you know, Over the last year and a half, I am starting to get used to the larger Ocular and extra 4 or 5 ounces and especially reliable tracking of my Meoptas. And now, they are starting to be comfortable to me, on my rifles. RJ

I’d pay $100 more a pop for VX2/VX3 style glass if it had truly heavy duty and reliable/predictable internals. Leupold could do this as another product line and keep their current money-maker lower end glass. Some are satisfied with that stuff, some never will be.

Jason,
Those here that know me know that I am no "sponsor trying to play facilitator between consumer and manufacturer".

Either I'll report back with seemingly positive feedback from Leupold or an OH Well, they don't give a sh-t and it'll be as it's been. I'd like to believe that they'll be recognition. Keep in mind, we, Camera Land, have been in business since 1957 and have seen many things. I'd hate to see Leupold go the way of Minolta, Konica and other big brand names that are no longer around.
Minolta was the camera company that invented autofocus SLR cameras. Remember their campaign "only through the minds of Minota" Yeah, everyone who once worked there remembers it too.
When was the last time you saw a Pentax camera? The Pentax K1000 was THE student camera for years.

Being a big name doesn't guarantee you'll be around forever.

Wow! One guy with no anonymity against a board of haters and their disappointment. I really hope Doug can clear this up with Leupold and the image that gets portrayed on the Campfire.

I have no issues with Leupold, and have shifted almost entirely to Swarovski and German Zeiss. They aren’t without their detractors either. I can’t remember the last time I came to the Campfire forum to make a decision on what gun, bullet or scope I was going to buy.

Just like hurricanes always hitting trailer parks, the Campfire seems to be the black hole of Leupold failures. Good luck Doug, I hope you can make some lemonade out of this basket of lemons...

[quote=260madman]Doug, the reason for cynicism is because Lowlight from SH actually went to their corporate office and sat down with them to spell out what the issues are and why they were losing market share in the tactical market. Not a lot has changed. I’d like to see them succeed but it’s hard to see past the end of your nose sometimes.[/quote

Please ask them if they are working on a new erector system ?
If they say No. Conversation should end at that time!!

OK, here's my two cents. I'm not a high roller with dozens of guns and high end optics. I am an old guy who has been shooting for many years. I also know that a couple of cases or any small sample doesn't "prove" anything. I was involved in high power silhouette back in the late 70s and early 80s when a M700 Varminter in .308 and a 10X or 12X Leupold were pretty standard. The Leupolds went back for service regularly when they wouldn't track reliably, and sometimes with parallax issues. That's when Weaver jumped in with their Micro-Trac T series. It's worth noting that Weaver's optics were never all that great. It was their mechanical reliability that sold them.

Then there was the Vari-X II 2x7 with the wandering zero that caused misses on an out-of-state muley hunt. On a .30-06. This scope was never dropped, if anything I baby my gear. When it came back the repair order listed multiple broken innards. A hunting buddy also had a similar problem with the same model. Keep in mind that at that time these were Leupold's high end models.

I know that a lot of years have passed since my experiences, but when I read about problems shooters are still reporting it does nothing to motivate me to buy another Leupold product. I generally take the view of "Screw me once, your problem; screw me twice, my problem." When corporate says "Hey, give us another chance, we've cleaned up our act", I remain skeptical. Cars, optics, it doesn't matter. There are plenty to choose from in a competitive market.

Paul

This!

My thoughts exactly! But other brands are steadily replacing ‘em on my rifles.

I would pay extra too

IF they were reliable, and they kept their other good attributes such as good glass, and forgiving eye box, and they were able to keep the weight down I’d pay extra. Light weight, durable, and reliable seems a bridge too far.

Doug, thank you for doing this. I'm sure Leupold is aware of everything they need already. But if this thread and your work is the final straw needed for them to take action... then success!

I too had all Leupolds at one time. Even used the MK4 series for work. Have since moved to other brands for most of the reasons already listed.

But lets not forget... Leupold is in the business if making money. And they do it by providing a product (which includes some service). They pump out a product with less than stellar QC and rely on minimal warranty work because it cuts into profits. Great QC would mean lower short term profits but HOPEFULLY longer term good will (profits). They chose the former business model.

Sound familiar Remington???

$ drives the bus. Let's hope the Execs WANT to change.

Thanks again Doug and Joel for all you do!

Doug, you got moxy, good on you for the effort.

Was also told that there was no problem with the internals holding zero by Technical. But I didn't really expect to hear differently because if they did it would be written up and they be castigated in print and on the internet for the next 20 years. How much bitching was done over the post 64 M-70...and they worked just fine! Swaro nearly flushed their hunting scope reputation down the toilet with the initial batches of 3-9x36 AVs going wonky. They fixed them but paid the price in print as people don't forget a bad purchase and still bitch for decades. Women get the rap for being vindictive after being scorned, but it takes second place to a bad optic purchase...and maybe rightly so--there are a lot of options. I have a whole lot more on the line today going on an out of state hunt than I did 35 years ago. Access alone is a different world than it was. Twenty years of points and you are still shy of the area you have in your sights on because there are enough guys still living with more points... There is a lot more at stake.

And my scope's zero may wander?

What I don't understand is how the earlier Leupold scopes in the same basic configurations had a reputation for toughness. I did a post some time ago in reference to the 6x36 and the replies about zero loss were disconcerting. Why can't the new ones be a solid as the older generations? A beancounter? Swafa has a near bulletproof scope for a few hundred bucks. Granted, they are beasts. But do also recall in the dim past that lighter scopes were said to be more reliable than heavier scopes. That does not appear to be the internet consensus today.

Trends take time to bottom and reverse. How a big corp like Leupold will reverse the negative talk trend is beyond me, short of a product line clean-out. And of course, shoot that beancounter...:)

fwiw Doug, I would gladly pay up money for a lightweight with a reputation for reliability.

I think I would rather Doug try to influence SWFA with their SS ultralight line than continue to beat this dead horse....

For those who say they would pay more for a scope that works well I wouldn't, they make enough on the things already and can put out a good product without a lot of extra cost if any.

I've been using Leupold for a long time. Mostly the VX, 1,2,and 3 series as well as the older Varix versions. Never had a single failure and I appreciate the generous eye relief and light weight. No experience with the more expensive versions.

But a few years ago I picked up one of the original Zeiss Conquests and I just plain like it better. Eye relief is about the same, it is a little heavier, but to my eye it is much sharper and clearer. I've come to like the fast focus eye piece too. I'm 61 and don't need regular glasses, but do use readers. I find that I can no longer just focus a scope and leave it. My eyes no longer focus at certain distances and with fast focus eye pieces I can adjust scope to do what my eyes no longer do.

At one time Cabelas carried that scope with their badges on it. I picked one up in the bargain cave for $250 and when they closed them out at $250 bought 2 more. Those have replaced leupolds on my go-to rifles. Once again, no real complaints, I just found something I like better.

Doug, thank you for bringing this topic forward. I am very old school when it comes to optics and have made a standard duplex reticle work for more than 60 years of big game hunting. I don’t twist knobs or want a bunch of clutter on the reticle. However, I absolutely want and need a scope to hold zero. I own a dozen Leupolds that were manufactured from the 1970s thru 2010 that have performed flawlessly in this regard. Unfortunately, the Leupolds that I have purchased in the past few years have had a failure to hold zero rate that has become totally unacceptable to me. Oh there is no question that they’ll fix them for you, but I have no interest in using their warranty service-I want to use the scopes for their intended purpose. Doug, whatever Leupold has changed in their manufacturing process or internal components in the past few years has substantially reduced their scopes’ reliability in my view and they have pushed this customer of 50 years to look elsewhere for his optic needs. CP.

Same here. Definitely not a hater- use to be every rifle I owned had a Leupold mounted, now I don't even look at their lineup when scope shopping and am down to just owning a few- 2 6x36LRD and a 2.5-8. For all the reasons many have already listed- inconsistent tracking, wandering zero, to actual cratering of the erectors which come back from 'warranty' performing about the same. Or fail again shortly after. The erector system has to be vastly improved before I'll even remotely consider them as an option.

I'm not a gun collector and haven't owned nearly the quantity of scopes/rifles some guys here have, but I practice & shoot often, backcountry/mountain hunt as much as physically possible, and compete in PRS style matches occasionally. I shoot enough to notice 'anomalies' with my gear. All the scope/rifle problems I used to have, are nonexistent since switching to other makes. I haven't had a unexplained zero shift in years, let alone a complete failure.

As a mainly backpack or horseback hunter, weight matters a lot to me. I like Leupold's weights and some of their other features for hunting rifle scopes. I didn't quit using them lightly. All the scopes I use now are much heavier, but worth the weight penalty over Leupold for the much better reliability and toughness.

I haven’t read every reply but I’d really like to see all Leupold scopes made in the USA (glass being the possible exception). I’d also like to see them simplify the lines and quit constantly changing model numbers to confuse customers and pass off cheaper scopes as Leupold “tough”.

I’ve used their customer service several times and I was always extremely satisfied with them. A real live person that uses English as a first language politely answers the phone and listens to the problem. I think the one thing they definitely have going for them is their customer service but many other companies have taken notice and meet or exceed Leupold’s customer service while selling more scope for less money, Leupold has name recognition and a history of quality products but they can’t rest on their laurels and need to remain competitive, especially if their scopes are made in China or wherever....

I use Leupold and Zeiss mostly. I have a steel tube El Paso Weaver on my Sako Varmiter because it’s period correct and is what’s been on that rifle for 56 years. I’ll be looking for a new scope for a 7mag I recently inherited and I want one with turrets. I’ve been looking at the Sig Sauer line and need to do more research as to their reliability in tracking and overall toughness but they seem to give you a lot for the money.

Finally I want to thank Doug at Cameraland for taking an interest in our input and using his associations to better an American shooting sports icon like Leupold.

I agree. Being from Oregon, I have had a lot of buddies that have been (or used to be) loyal to Leupold, but they had multiple failures. I always ask, why are you paying that much for a damn scope that breaks on you all the time? The usual response was, "well, they are made right here in our backyard and we need to support them". They also always commented further by, "Leupold costs more because you are paying for their stellar warranty". And furthermore, I'd hear, "They are second to none on their warranty". Well, things have changed my friends. I recently had a mishap with one of my SWFA's it was a 16x model with an outdated moa mil dot reticle. I dropped the rifle on the scope in the gravel:




This pic shows the group shift after the ocular had been broken:


Totally my fault. I emailed SWFA asking them if they could repair it for me and they sent me a shipping label and said they would take care of it. When they received the 16x SS rifle scope, they said they looked it over and the eyepiece was loose/broken, but they could replace it free of charge. They also informed me that the reticle I had, was no longer in production. They gave me the choice of any fixed power rifle scope they had with any current reticle they offered. I chose the 16x again, but opted for the mil/mil quad reticle which I thought was the only way to go vs. the moa mil dot I previously had. SWFA also wrote to me apologizing for my inconvenience and that they were happy to assist me with this issue. Again, this was totally my fault. They didn't need to go out of their way and replace something I accidentally broke.... but they did. Leupold has some competition now when it comes to "stellar" warranties, but they also have a lot of catching up to do. And yes, things need fixing over there at Leupold........ By the way, the rifle that I dropped on that 16x super chicken scope weighs about 10 pounds. It's back to shooting great again. To give you an idea of how well these SWFA's track, I was shooting 2.5" 10 shot groups at 400 yards the other day and dialed back down to my zero (100 yards) and proceded to shoot these groups, back to back:

If Leupold made a scope that tracked like this one,and for the same price, I might think about going back to them...

Seems like all the bases have been covered pretty well. The weak points of the Leupold scopes have been pretty well detailed, though it surprises me the numbers of issues that guys have had that I hadn't heard of before this thread... For the most part I don't spin dials but that is about to change as the last couple rifle I've had built/am building are designed with dialing in mind so a search for a suitable scope is in order very soon. Usually Leupold would be my go-to but these days there are other scopes holding my interest and my high end Bushnells have been stellar in their performance so far. A thread like this does give someone pause when spending hard earned money on a commodity that has substantially grown in price the last few years.

All that being said, at some point this just becomes piling on and a bitch session and very little additional positive input is achieved. At some point it will probably be necessary to lock the thread so we don't damage our own cause or Doug's efforts to sway Leupold in a positive manner...

Bob

Interesting thread. I have only one Leupold out of 7 that may have issues but I can’t say for sure if it’s the scope. This does change my thought process on scoping my upcoming build though.

Thanks Doug and to all those with helpful posts.

Many Leupold fans haven't turned away from their scopes. We buy what they used to make off the classifieds.

Sadly, I think this will continue to be the case; but I'd like to be proven wrong.

MM

The current generation of family and owners and board staff at the lord of the rings company.

Dgaf.......

If this hasn't been proven time and time again, then what has...

Better scopes for same or less price on the market than a lord of the rings scope.....

Stopped drinking the cool aide in early 2017.

When it is cheaper and less hassle for them to outright replace rather than repair a scope.
That speaks volumes to me on the huge profitability of their product versus its manufacturing cost and reliability.
Then when they take the "good parts" out of exchanged scopes and put those parts back onto the production line also speaks volumes to me.
Ya.... one of their techs let that cat outta the bag during one of my lenghty talks with em....

A life time warranty you have to constantly use cause of failures also speaks volumes .

I would rather have a lifetime warranty I never have to use on a dead
Nuts reliable product , rather than have one on a low cost to produce unreliable product.

Do leupold scopes say assembled in the U.S.A. or made in the U.S.A. now????

They are riding on their past reputation.
And selling scopes and hoping they dont fail and things hold together for the shooter who goes thru one box of shells a year.
And their warranty is the cats meow to that type I geuss.



Plenty of other excellent scopes with lifetime warranties out their and ya dont hear much about them having to be used all the time.



I used leupold scopes since age 16 or 17 yrs old in 1979
Lost me as lifelong user in 2016 and 2017 with the vx3i 3.5-10x40
abortion I experienced....


Jmo and experience.
Nuff said....

Y’all aren’t gonna stop until I try one of these. What’s the glass comparable to?

I have had a lot of leupold over the years and for the most part have been satisfied. The glass has always been superb and the weight has always been good. However my last couple have been a disappointment. My vx6 would not track correctly vertically or horizontally. My vx3i lrp 8.5-25 had the same issue. Eventually I got rid of them. If the erector problems were fixed I would buy more but until then I will look for other options

Let’s not pretend leupold is the only ones all of vortex’s non Japanese built scopes are junk too.

Yep, one pays the money and takes the chances. Lots of options now, Leupold might want to consider that.

It’s about VX2 level glass. More than adequate for all my hunting needs.

I don't understand how Doug would have any influence on SWFA. Care to explain?

Their fixed power $299 scope has $299 glass. With that said you can’t touch the mechanics for anywhere near that price. Their HD line is good glass with the same excellent mechanics. I wish they would offer the 3-15 in HD. I think it would be a home run. I balked on the 5-20HD Memorial Day sale when it was $859. Not sure why but I have more scopes than I need right now. I’ve since spent more time wondering why I didn’t buy it than I spent considering it when the sale was active.


I’ll be keeping my Leupold FX-2s but the VX-6HD is starting to scare me based on post here.

I bet he has more influence with SWFA.... than he does Leupold.

We all know Leupold doesn’t care about these issues.... if they did, they’d have fixed them by now.

Doug’s effort here is noble.... but it’s also a fool’s errand. Like I said pages ago.... Leupold has known their erectors were crap for better than a decade.

Thanks for the effort, Doug. Hell of a way to spend your weekend!

I read a piece on Leupold and how the family dominated board had arguments on whether or not to take a very lucrative govt contract to make military optics. The pro-military contract faction eventually won but just the fact that they had such a discussion sorta profiles who they are, who they have become. Bet the founders weren’t like that.

I’m guessing West coast libs, probably rich, privileged brats. Don’t know any of them, just observing.

Given that profile, who can guess what they gonna do.

DF

Doug, this may sound trivial to you but if you go back to when Leupold raised the price of changing a reticle from $60 to $200...it played bloody hell w/their reputation. That's one of the only things that Leupold had left going for them and they screwed it up too. Many guys around that time had a scope on the shelf or had just got a good deal on one because they new they could change the reticle from one they didn't like. Well it didn't take long for them to make another pile of enemies...again. Just like that darn wide duplex reticle. They need to fire the sob that thought that one up. powdr

If some of us were in charge there, there would be a lot of firing going on. And it would start with upper management... Just sayin..

Yup...Time spent convincing SWFA a zero stop on a few SS would be a nice place to start. Adding washers to a 4-15 and 5-20 IIRC voids the warranty. 😎

I know Doug doesn’t carry SWFA.

Swfa glass aint the best, but it sure is good enough...Being a variable lover- the SS 4-15 is a nice scope, even with door knobs for turrets.😎

You're right, I didn't think that through....

I guess what I was thinking is I would rather see the efforts of the Fire be directed at a company that already has a quality product that could be tweaked to be even better than it already is. Several members on here (Form, Koshkin, etc) would have valuable input to a company willing to listen.

Sorry..... shoulda used the facetious font.....

The brightness, colour rendition, and contrast are $300 worth, but the resolution, in variable atmospherics, is $1500 worth.

The price tag on piece of schit optics reflects the killer warrantee! Personally I'd much rather see the same price tag and no warrantee with the warrantee money put toward quality. Why everybody prefers a piece of schit with a warrantee is beyond me.

I buy SWFA because I don't plan on useing the warrantee. I'd much rather pack the extra weight.

Most hunters are happy with a 1/2 moa gun that shoots 2" groups at 100 yds because the internals are "sloppy"! Doesn't mean the scope has actually failed it just means its schit and sloppy



Trystan

Those knobs on the fixed powers look like schit. I bet they are handy though when dialing .

WAIT A MINUTE! This thread is now turning into a review of this site's SACRED COW! Sure SWFA has door knobs for turrets and has inferior-mediocre glass, but, what does that matter? I can crank up and down all day like an un-medicated ADHD teenager and it tracks!
Seriously, if we are going to bash Leupold, we can also bash other scopes. I own probably more scopes than the average person on this thread and, I don't own one. The mediocre optics and "door knob" turrets (I like that characterization) keep me away from their value priced scopes. And, if I am going to look at their top of the line scopes and shell out a grand or so, it would not be for an SWFA!

Blaze Away!

All kinda a mute thread.
Plenty of subject matter experts and industry types have told leupold and shown leupold the shortcomings of their scopes.
Whether they be set and forget models or dailing models.
Leupold knows their products fail.

Never the less it goes uncorrected with a Wdgaf attitude after presented with it all by knowledgeable people.



Fugg leupold and their products
Cause they are basically saying themselves fugg the customer and what they want to become a customer again.

Adding 2 or 3 ounces to a scopes weight to beef up its internal components or materials, ain't gonna smoke anyone carrying a rifle.
Bottomline is better components and materials cutt into per unit profit margin.
Anyone that thinks leupold ain't doing this cheaper component and material useage is smoking crack with Tyrone biggums.

If saving 2 or 3 ounces is a huge deal to someone weight wise, then ya probably need a reality check.
Leupold stream lined the 1 and 2 line to come out with the freedom line. Used some from this and some from that.
To come up with their model T axle looking scope




All this schit is lean sigma six cost cutting and streamlining schit.

And the result is a shoddy product that makes a huge profit margin per unit.

In other words leupold Dgaf about what you think about their product.
But they gaf about making less for more.
Their reputation from products in the past that they beleive most people still think about them.
Is what they are banking on carrying em

Look at all the service,s they used to offer up until about 12 to 15 yrs ago that dont exist anymore or you pay out the nose for now.


Leupold,s lean sigma six business model sucks.....

And this is what happens to legendary companies when bean counters get involved with inheritance baby family members who dgaf actually about company products but want more company money.


Asking to help leupold improve their products with constructive input. People and professionals been trying to do it for years to no avail......


LMFAO!!!!!!

I would and did, a couple times....

I really like the 5-20x50 hd. I have a heap of glass, too - many over $1k price tag. Aside from my one NF, I know every single scope other than my SWFA or NF may schit itself on any given day at the range or a hunt.

I don’t even think about a failure with swfa or NF....For me, to finally have peace of mind on my aiming device was a huge difference when dialing up deep yards on a critter...😎

Any Tract scopes? I bought a Toric recently and highly considered SWFA, but the rumored glass quality and huge non-locking turrets drove me away. Haven’t mounted it yet but the adjustments feel more solid than anything I’ve had this far. I could’ve had 2 SWFA for the same price.

Even a classic M8 4x will lose zero after 2-day cross country trip on the Interstate. 1200 miles of gentle vibration in a Pelican case over the Interstate. No accidents. No drops.

I'm not going to get rid of it but I won't ever take a Leupold on a long trip again.

What exactly comes close to the SS 5-20HD for $1000? Are you also one who hates Tikka because people recognize the quality and value there therefore they are popular?

That's how I feel too. Those of us that do know this, shoot a lot and at different yardages. Just like when you are hunting, your shots are not always given to you on a silver platter. You may have to take a long shot every once in a while. Why not be prepared to take that shot and know you are going to hit what you are aiming at? You know this because you practice near and far and you know what your equipment can do. We also know Leupold just doesn't cut it when it comes to tracking because we have also used those near and far and when dialing up or down or left and right, when you turn the turrets back to zero, I'll be damned if your rifle is shooting way off in left field. That chit doesn't happen with SWFA or NightForce. No matter what SWFA you buy, the damn thing is going to track like a blood hound and be as loyal to you when the time comes to make the shot. Just last weekend the fixed power SWFA SS rifle scopes were $250.00 on sale for memorial day. The HD's were on sale as well and for those of you that haven't tried one, maybe you should. Gone will be the days of fiddling with your turrets back and forth to get zeroed in, then find out next time you are at the range you are not zeroed anymore. I'm sorry, but I don't know the guys that are claiming zero failures with Leupold, but I can almost guarantee they don't shoot like the majority of us do that have had issues/failures... No comment on Tract, except maybe the person asking about them should dig up the test Formidulus did on one.... RTZ wasn't great, but I won't spoil the ending for you. Look up the thread yourself... I'm going to go and butter up some popcorn...

What does my dislike for the Matel Toy quality stocks Tikka uses have to do with SWFA? By the way, Bergara has MUCH BETTER stocks than Tikka....
Back to the topic, nothing comes close to the mediocre SWFA glass, virtually everything at that price point is optically BETTER!

Hmmmm.....SWFA/NF feels a bit threatened by Toric. NF makes a good scope BUT is not a great value. Their 30-40% markup is a turn off. They are optically superior to SWFA, no question but are definitely not the best optics.
SWFA is a value scope. One gets a lot for the buck but, the optics are souped-up vintage Tasco.
Both SWFA/NF should be scared of Tract. Their new scopes are just a better value!

My popcorn is popping....got to go....

Formidilus (sic) is to Nightforce what Keith was to the 44 mag.....(sometimes knowledgeable people are blinded by their own biases)

I thought this was a Leupold thread but as usual it's turned into a SWFA/NF thread. powdr

powdr,

Sorry to digress, I get a kick out of these OUTSIDE guys lecturing about hunting/shooting.
Regarding Leupold. Most bear guides I have known use low power older Leupold variables. Some have fixed power older Leupolds. Most start with .375 Winchester/Ruger and move on up from there in terms of foot pounds of recoil. Seldom does anyone gripe about internals and zero-hold issues. And, these guys risk their lives every time they go in the woods. Of course, they do not shoot their .375s thousands of times and don't dial their scopes. Most shots are up close and personal. But, there is no fogging of lenses etc.
Most of the scopes are older Vari X low power variables.

They get a kick out of dealing with their rich clients with their Kahles, Leicas, Swaros and S&B. Virtually, no one shows up with a SWFA or NF.

Powdr,
It feels more like a stroll down memory lane taking a right turn straight up the steps of a Horror House where all the scope demons live.

You may know them by names, like “FRTZ” an evil and frustrating devil that won’t bring your reticle back to zero.

Or, maybe you’ve heard of the “Turret Knock Goblin” - He’s a ghost like apparition that makes a shooter think he has to knock twice on his elevation turret after making adjustments to lock it in...

The Knock Goblin is extremely OCD and once he get’s in your head, it’s hard to get people to stop doing it even after they purchase a reputable optic...

And, then there’s the worst azzhole Satanic demon of them all. “The Wizard of Windage”...He’s the master of trickery by producing an audible sound of a click to make a shooter believe he’s just dialed in 1 Mil or 1 MOA of windage (L) or (R) when in reality you dialed in 3 Mils or 3 MOA of correction putting your shot off target by 2 Mils or 2 MOA. The Wizard of Windage is a douche bag.

Then when the shooter tries to get back to his original zero...”FRTZ” shows his ghastly face and says “Not gonna happen bitch”

Popcorn 🍿 anyone?
😎

What's SWFA got to do with a Leupold?

If a little guy from Texas can get good functioning chit made, Leupold ought to be able to do it, and do it cheaper too, no?

Tomorrow is another week, surely they'll get the hint. LOL

As long as their scopes are assembled by Americans in an American factory they are going to cost more, much more than a comparable optic sourced from the pacific rim with no dealer mark up. Don't think they can do it for what SWFA does it for, because they cannot.

Oh it was just a guess, a pretty good one obviously. Cleared some things up for me on your position.

Anyone who thinks the the NXS has better glass than the 5-20HD has never sat behind them side by side.

Curious, how long had Leupold held that $60 price. I am guessing many years but do not know.

Good on Dougs part to take this on. When I was the Service Director for our dealership Ford never needed to ask us what needed to improve on the quality control front. All they had to do was look at their warranty claims. That told them plenty. Basically the same things went wrong on the same vehicles. But its good to ask your customers what experiences they are having.

I recall seeing $50 posted by more than one member here on the campfire some years back. So if that's not a typo by powdr, there was a change to $60 before going to $200.

Even if you could whip David Tubb, Carl Bernosky and Sherri Gallagher all on the same day it would have no bearing whatsoever on the mechanical issues being discussed.

Ive never had a reticle changed. Going from$60 to $200,they may as well have just quit doing it.

I think that may have been the point.

Tell Leupold to get rid of that dogshit wide duplex reticle.

It did give me more reading than any novel would have and hopefully in the end it will be worth it.

I hope they keep the wide duplex. I much prefer it over the regular duplex.

What is its virtue for you ? For me the opening is so wide it may as well be a plain crosshair.

I think I own nine Leupolds. Mostly older M8's, but a few others too. I have had one issue with the "erector". It was on a 4x33 M8. I sent it in, along with an explanation letter, a few weeks later, I had my scope back, repaired and "gone through," with a letter detailing all of the work that was done to the scope. I was pretty happy, though I never realized the erector issue was that widespread. I guess it wasn't just a freak thing,

I was happy with the way they handled the claim, 100% though.

I suppose if I were to make any recommendations, as petty as it sounds, bring back the gloss option, even if it costs a little bit more. Some of us like glossy scopes to match our glossy rifles. Not everyone is, or wants to be, a tactical operator. Been there, done that. Got the challenge coin.

I understand that matte finishes, 3" high turrets, reticle illumination, inferred, lasers, night vision, M-Rad, Mil-Dot, leveling bubbles, reticles with rangefinders and bullet drop compensators are all the rage now, and Leupold is just responding to 95% of the market demand, but don't forget about us simple folk, the 5%.

How about release an entirely separate line of scopes? Call them the "Classic Line" or some such. Matte and gloss finished fixed 2.5x, 4x, 6x, or even 3-9x and 4-12x scopes with plain duplex or boring fine crosshairs. How about bring back the old HBR style 6x scopes. Folks will buy them.

I’m tired or reading about Leupold BS and I’m sure someone will suggest that I STFU and move on if I don’t like it. Save your pixels, I’m doing just that! LOL

J23,

I concur with your last paragraph. Why not a german no. 4 reticle too? Definitely a gloss finish, 2.5 x ,a 4x, 6x (for that group of folks). Less SKUS seem to be the rage so instead ofa3-9and 4-12, maybe one scope model that catches both : 3-12x for-example. Really good ideas and points there.

A blast from the past!

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbt...as-leupold-fixed-tracking-zero-retention

If I had interest in Leupold I would sell and buy Nightforce.

Is the HD line a significant step up in glass quality? I think I’m gonna bite on either the SS 6x or HD 3-9

And the big deal was their scopes being used by the govt to kill people. It evidently was quite a fight before level heads prevailed. So, those privileged heirs didn't seem overly worried about making money.

With that snowflake level of thinking, I doubt the board is overly concerned about what we (out in fly over country) think. I would hope mgt. would take heed and move accordingly.

I don't see why some engineering can't fix whatever is the problem.

I have friends who think this stuff is all malarkey, others who I respect a lot, report serious issues, even with new scopes. I've sent a few back, but still like the brand.

DF

Depends what you call "significant". The glass in the 3-9x is a bit better, but the 6x is honestly very good.

Mathman, I believe I've figured it out. The wide duplex does double duty as a crosshair & a binocular substitute.

It may also have some ranging potential for ELR shooting.

The gap is too large to range anything but elephants up close.

Holdover maybe. How many moa/mils from center to thick transition on the wide duplex?

I'm glad you elaborated on the 'why' of the arguments over the military contract. As for fixing the problem(s), it sounds to me like it is very much quality control related, not just design, based on the comment below by JB.

Real men don't use ranging devices. Or bipods or rests.


Doug, as others have said, thanks for your efforts. I don't have anything to add except, if Leupold got serious about fixing the issues identified, lots of people would line up to buy their scopes.

Grinning--I don't know. Have posted several time seeking the truth, assuming it must be out there. But aside from possessing a crosshair its utility eludes me--except perhaps as a cost savings measure...:)

I will take bushnell banner glass if the scope works mechanically. people worry way way too much about glass. to that I say get better binoculars and spotting scopes. SWFA SS makes perfectly serviceable glass in their scopes. The only time I want better glass is shooting in mirage conditions over a P dog town. other than that glass quality is way down the list.

Glass is subjective... A lot of times a guy wants to convince himself a far less expensive scope he bought is as good or better than a scope costing 3x as much...It usually isn’t the case.

I just pulled out my VX6 3-18. NF 5-22 NXS and a SWFA 5-20 HD.

The VX6 had the best clarity. Then the SWFA HD followed by the NF.

The SWFA was close to the VX6 clarity, but it was evident the VX6 was clearer and brighter.

Subjective? Sure...But I’m not trying convince myself which has better glass.

If I need to see the milk plant or sack size on an animal. The Leupold would do that...😎

Seeing the sack, and hitting it, are two different things. What, with that wandering zero and all....

Akin to trusting the wobble...

All they would have to do is run a summer time add showing and saying where they had beefed up the erector system and they have a new #4...a real #4...reticle and say they believed in it so much that they were going back to charging $60 for a reticle instead of $200 and sales would go through the roof. Any guy in his right mind would not balk at paying an extra $10 for a scope w/an upgraded erector system. powdr

Any guy dumb eneogh to pay extra for what they are supposed to get from the get go deserves what he’s got...

I would have added that at the end of my post...But, Doug asked us to play nice. I was being nice. 😉😎

I have a marlin .375 Winchester .

Ain't no fugging way I would carry it for big bears ( maybe black bear over bait at the most) if I ever went on a hunt for em.....
A .375 Winchester is about the same as a 35 Remington energy wise.

If I was going after big bears with any rifle I have.
It would be my mod70 ot6 with 168 gr barnes ttsx bullets.

I would have way more confidence in the energy of the ot6 with barnes bullets
Than the energy in a .375 Winchester with 200, 220, or 250 gr bullets.


I think your smoking dope to tell the truth.....

Am not going to read 12 pages of Leupold anything. Doug, I find your thread pretty peculiar. Don't you think the company that repairs Leupold scopes already knows what fails on them?

This entire thread is a waste of time and nothing but a feel good exercise. If Leupold was interested in making a better scope they have all the feedback they need and then some.

Fireball, i wonder where the Leupold rep is, that we see here from time to time? Ive asked him questions and then dont see or hear from him again for a while.

Thats a good report. Surprised NF was beat out by SWFA though...

Id wait until formid put the new scope through its paces and see if it were really better, before i paid any of my hard earned money on one.

Hes more than smoking dope.

I friended him after he 1st came on.
I'm his bestest buddy.....
Sent him a PM after I also told him on a thread his fugged up company basically owed me about 180 bucks chasing zero.
Wasting ammo
Gas money
Nib replacement scope sold at loss just to get rid of it the next day after I got it in the mail.

I wont even buy a leupold lens pen.
The fugging rubber tip felt end falls off them also for Christ's sakes...

.

It’d take a lot more than a test from Form to get me to spend my money on anything with the Leupold name as well as a few other brands...

It's self-explanatory, that must be the problem.

Form is the rain on a sunny day....He absolutely thrashed my high hopes of new found optic greatness with Sig’s line of Tango6 and Whiskey5 scopes...bsa, good idea to wait or PM him before shelling out cash. 😎

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbt...re-what-happened-to-leupold#Post13844494

bsa,

I know some are incapable of critical thinking and rely upon "hero worship" to make decisions for them. But, really, it is sort of g--y to suck up so hard to only ONE guys opinion. Maybe if you loosened your Oregon/Portland "man bun" you would be able to think clearer and make YOUR OWN decisions....it's embarrassing...really...
Regarding your knowledge of bear hunters up here....watching Life Below Zero on television does not count.....you actually have to bear hunt for decades.....
You keep your door knob turrets and neo-Tasco optics and whirl away at the door knob turrets.....but, if you ever have the balls to come brown bear hunting, you will almost NEVER see an SWFA or NF in camp.....
Now, go back to turning that door knob turret......

Hey smokepole, how are you this evening? I trust you can still find your way into a tight eyebox this early at night?

As I said in my post, Leupold has all the feedback they need a hundred thousand times over with all the scopes sent in for repair over the decades. Yes, smokepole, that's decades. If I manufactured scopes, and had five come back with the same problem, I'd call it a pattern in need of attention. Is it safe to say Leupold has had at least five scopes come back for repair? What about 50? 500? 5000? I bet they've had that and more.

They know what needs to be done to make a better scope but they're playing the marketing shell game with their scopes and their future. They make their choices, and we make ours.

And smokepole, thank you so much for your thoughtful and insightful post, as always.

Still can't figure it out, huh.

Beaver10,

You seem a bit NAIVE....as you know, objectivity is hard to find nowadays, people have biases and sometimes vested monetary interest driving their opinions....I would not ask a Leupold fan boy for their opinion of Nikon....I wouldn't ask an SWFA fan boy their opinion of Leupold...I wouldnt ask a NF fan boy for their opinion of Tract.....I wouldnt ask a S&B fan boy their opinion of Swarovski.....etc. The competition is ferocious in mid-to high price scopes....getting a variety of opinions from "legitimate" sources beats only one source no matter how knowledgeable.....

Im not going to spend another dollar on Leupold, until they get their chit figured out. Id rather wait for the all clear from someone who i trust will give us a fair and honest report. Formid will definitely do that, as we all know. Its not about having balls, its about having brains. Obviously that is where you are lacking.

bsa,

Sorry, but no one is Omniscient. Been around too long to buy into just ONE GUY'S OPINION.

Agree with this post..Fix erectors so they stay put and zero doesn't shift all ,over....I had trouble with three..That was enough for me..It happened in Africa..I switched to MeOpta and Conquest (same) and they stay where I out 'em..

Agree with this post..Fix erectors so they stay put and zero doesn't shift all ,over....I had trouble with three..That was enough for me..It happened in Africa..I switched to MeOpta and Conquest (same) and they stay where I put 'em..

I would like to see them offer an “etched reticle” like the old conquest scopes. Dark thicker posts that narrow down to a very fine cross hair for detailed range work. I compared my zeiss scopes to my vx2-3 leupolds in low light on game. I could see the animal fairly comparably but the zeiss reticle stood out clearly better on game in low light. Also Crisp “clicks” for dialing would be nicer than the mushy adjustments they have now. Love the 4” eye relief on my leupolds though. Don’t change that.

Formidilosus, breaks a lot of gear using and testing it. For him, it’s a career, not just a hunting season. I’m beyond confident Form isn’t a paid shill.

To me it’s only naive to think I would only run 500 rounds of magnum chamberings under my optics. If a “source” is showing “catastrophic” failures after a few thousand rounds or less. That gives me serious concern.

I’m an equal opportunity purchaser. I run March, NF, Leupold, Zeiss, SWFA, Sightron, and Bushnell - All of these scopes are of the higher end line-card for each maker.

The Sig Whiskey5 and Tango6 have some excellent glass. Better than Leupold VX6 “subjective”,”yes” but I have the scopes to compare side by side...Not second hand my best pard said the scope was good schit....My eyes, my experience behind glass, my scopes. That means something, if only to me.

Now, I was vested in a few of these Sig scopes. I had read glowing reviews about them before I bought, including inside knowledge I was told about a few former Leupold engineers moving to Sig.

I decided to buy a Tango6 from a pard who also knows a lot about scopes and optics. He liked the scope, not the reticle.

Back to listening to one person..What benefit does Formidilosus derive from making damning statements about an optics failure?

I see none, other than upsetting a manufacturer who was trying to get a pass/fail certification from Forms organization which a “pass” would likely help push them further along in the purchasing process and being added to a requisition list for military or LEO needs.

And a fail means back to the drawing board or put your optic in front of the buying community, warts and all, and hope one organization won’t care that the scope lenses fell out after only 3k rounds fired down range.

Yes, there’s good scopes out their that will work and help a person kill animals...But, there’s not a lot of great scopes that have been built as a total package with menu features, unless you have the bank roll to whip out $3-$4k.

To afford my scopes, they’re has to be some concessions, so I can afford the purchase. I now choose durability and repeatability over great glass clarity....Good to really good glass works well for me along with tough internals...Weight? Pfftt, 28-32oz is fine for my hunting. 😎

PS
You can call me Shirley but never naive 😬

And I would not ask a guy who says rangefinders are unnecessary for his opinion on much of anything shooting-related.

Doug, start a new thread when you hear back from leupold and let us know what they say.

I would like to make a couple of points here. I am not "dissing" anyone here, I just want to present an opposing opinion.


If there were other brands in the price range with the same attributes (light weight, good eye relief, small ocular, etc), that also had a stellar tracking record, then yes, I would not want to pay extra for Leupold to beef up their erectors. But, I do not know of another brand of scope with the attributes that I like about Leupolds, that also has a stellar tracking reputation, in the same price range. So what I am saying is, I would be willing to pay more for their scopes with a reliable erector to get a reliable erector in combination with those things that I do like about Leupold scopes.



I see what you are saying that Leupold knows what is wrong with their scopes. But I think the purpose of Dougs thread here, is to let Leupold know that WE KNOW what is wrong with their scopes and they are loosing many customers, which is affecting their sales income. RJ

Shall do. Here's hoping I'll have something good to report

I'm not convinced that Fireball is the one not figuring things out.

Doug has explained his reasons for starting this thread more than once so they should be crystal clear.

Will it work? I don't know and Doug has admitted he doesn't know either but you've got to give him credit for trying. He's doing what he can to help out, the rest is up to Leupold. Plus, he sponsors the forum and for that alone he deserves some deference.

What he doesn't deserve is people questioning his motives or intelligence for posting the thread. He knows exactly what he's doing.

Thank you. As Mom used to say "I am responsible for the effort, not the outcome" all I can do is try to get some action started. As soon as I hear something back, which I am hoping will be this week, I will post

A scope is an aiming device. So, mechanical trumps glass. It is nice to have both, but forced to choose, mechanical over glass any day.

DF

I want both, hard to hit what you can’t see. BTDT.

Any $200 scope today has adequate glass for killing stuff. Those days are over.

I'm not dissing Doug for his effort. But in a sense it's more his job than it is most of ours.

Most agree the old Leupold scopes held zero better, and have gone downhill. If you don't think Leupold already knows this based on the returns they get then vs. now you have your head buried in the sand.

Leupold has chosen to run a business model similar to Forest River (that builds travel trailers). Keep adding more lines and changing model names and features to keep the consumer a step or two behind on their knowledge of the product. Market them well, give them lots of "features", people love them their ""features" but actually shoot very little. By the time anyone figures out what the low down on a particular line is, change the names, models, and features and start all over.

Anybody else notice how similar Leupold model numbers were as they changed them around? Anybody fall behind in knowledge (and lose interest in trying to understand new models and features) when they went from Vari x III to whatever then whatever then whatever? Remember when their line was 3 models and you knew what you were buying? Those were the times in Leupolds development that made them successful. Men bought them and trusted them and they worked. Leupold has made the choice to muddy the waters and decrease reliability, How is that our fault for noticing?

Then vs. now, it's easy to lose track of Leupolds model development, and they don't work like they once did. All these people with similar stories can't be wrong.

In my opinion, Leupold is way past the fact-finding, truth-seeking stage in their business model an is relying on name recognition and customer goodwill rather than product performance to sell scopes. You can tell a company that knows it needs to build a great product to stay in business and one that doesn't. They aren't hard to spot. Leupold is coasting and ignoring known shortcomings of their products.

As always, JMO and worth what you paid for it. But my money goes where it works, not where it used to, "just because". I still shoot some Leupolds mostly because I haven't figured out a replacement for all of them but I do know that some don't move right when I make adjustments, and one lost zero and is setting in the safe unused. I don't really want to deal with problems when I'm shooting, I deal with problems all day long at work.

I'm to a point that I'd rather shoot a $1000 scope on two or three rifles than own 20 $3-400 Leupolds, some of which don't work right and can cost me a hunt. Screw that, I'm too old and tired to deal with Leupolds s h i t.

How profitable is Leupold? Anyone know?

From what I've seen on line, the heirs (family) have a big presence on the board.

Not sure if they have public shares, most companies like that do.

I've not been able to get particulars about their financial stuff. That info may not be available to the public.

DF

I doubt that when condition are poor.

Guaranteed.

I know better than that

You’re already paying for a turret to track and RTZ... the turrets are listed with a value... For instance 1 click = .250 MOA... it doesn’t list it as .250 MOA +/- 1 MOA ... so why should an end user pay additional to get what he was advertised and paid for in the first place... For the most part most end users don’t have the knowledge if their scope works correctly or not...They blame baggage handlers, the trip in the back of the SUV or a bump of the rifle for their scope being off or atmospheric condition for a misplaced shot... This is what certain companies rely on... The market is large enough with the set and forget guys and the under 150 yard shot guys that errors with tracking and zero retention is over looked so Leupold and others will always have a customer base... Now as shooting has evolved to longer ranges the problems which have been there for 10-15 years are starting to surface... A guy that shoots 20 rounds a year at 100 yards or less doesn’t really notice his zero has changed 2-3 MOA vertical or horizontal or both... it’s 2-3 inches off at 100... not a problem for them... He’ll rezero before season and beat the kid for bumping his 270... Unfortunately companies realize this and do not have the want or need to change anything except the price tag on the latest and greatest product line...

The problem with upgrading a scope to be robust and track/RTZ is it will come with additional weight and lord knows that those 2-4 added ounces will break the bank for the light weight crew... There’ll be 60 threads of complaints about weight then... it’s a never ending cycle...

That’s some funny schit, right there 😂😎

On the willingness to pay more for reliability ... I liken this to a woman in an abusive relationship who decides serving him breakfast in bed is the appropriate response to stop the beatings.

Beaver10, based on your retired friends' accounts, can you ballpark figure the year scope reliability dropped below Leupold's previous par?

Well then, my apologies, I must have misinterpreted your meaning. I thought you were dissing Doug for his effort when you said this:





How could I have been so stupid?

Totally misunderstood... lmao...

Leupold Freedom EFR 3-9X.
Has a blur ring around the outside edge of the lens Dunno if that lens issue or due to being recessed in the Adj Obj.
Is there and noticeable.

First Leupold I've had in Freedom line, no other Vari X2 VX3 VX1 or M8's have had that "feaure".



Bought another new Freedom optic unseen (ordered through local dealer-same as other).
Freedom RDS.
Can see a gold square around reddot reflected onto lens.
Against a dark object w intensity low it's VERY noticeable. Even outside in bright light it appears as a faint blur around the dot.
What the hell use is a 1 MOA dot when it's in actuality a 3 or 4 moa blur with a 1 moa red center?

Used rifle came into LGS, Freedom 3-9X (non AO). It has a blur around outside edge too, but lesser than my EFR.

Read reviews, watched YT videos............."crisp to edge" was mentioned a few times.
Have looked at two and the both are not.

Yeah, you look at the center, but the blur is so blatant its a casual distraction.
My Redfiekld Revolutions (three 2-7X, one 3-9X and one 4-12X).................didn't have it.

Just run an ad.

ROFL

Is there a noticeable edge to the blur? If so, it may be used to gauge distance.

I agree that I want both, but even $150 glass nowadays is good enough. I’ve had a few Burris E1’s that were plenty. They could use some better anti-glare coatings but it’s never been something I couldn’t overcome with a baseball cap.

Nothing like using the fine edge of the blur to gauge distance/size... And people wonder why some of these optic companies are still pushing schitt products... unfükinbelievable....

It’s a calming blur for guys that never kill anything. Cuts buck fever in half. 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣😂😂😂😂😂😎😎😎😎😎😎





The best Leupold money can buy says NIGHTFORCE ON THE BOX.

Tracking would sell me on their scopes.

I got into the Varmint For Score game ten years ago with local matches and started with Weaver T-36 scopes to see if I was going to really stay with the matches before I spent bigger money.
The glass was better in my buddies Leupold 36x and 45x scopes but they didn't track, only two guys still use Leupold.
The others went to Weaver or Nightforce.
Up or down one click, left or right one click, I can keep on shooting and not have to chase zero during a match. Tracking!

From the late 90’s they saw a decline in the quality of components going into the scope. 😎

It takes practice. Thankfully you seem dedicated to the task. Read it again.

Now, now, did you buy that sucker on E-Bay...it could be grey market Chinese....

Hint....(stealing that other guy's annoying wording)....try a Tract Toric.......

Tract Toric? Spill it....What’s to like? 😎

I ordered my Freedom EFR 3-9X and RDS through my local gun shop.
Now my 4X compact was off E-bay, but it's an old scope (that's mint and works fine.....shot my 8 pointer w it last yr).

beaver (Shirley?)
No matter how definitive, no matter how all inclusive, one opinion is ONE opinion.
Maybe this is a generational issue, but, I much rather listen to numerous opinions before making a choice.
It's a free country, we are all free to believe what we want to believe!

Regarding Leupold: As long as the majority of the shooting population only chooses (needs?) set and forget scopes, the smaller wannabe- sniper "cranking" community will have to go elsewhere. ( SWFA found a niche and its life blood.)
I bet SWFA is hoping Leupold ignores this thread, because, Leupold can put them out of business if they wanted to......

You're a dumbass.

There’s about two dozen examples of “set and forget” Leupolds going tits-up on this thread alone..... is that still only one opinion?

Yep he is

"Gray market" is genuine merchandise from an "alternative" source: fell off the truck, stuff that failed inspection and was recovered from the trash, repaired then resold, goods meant to be sold in a foreign market; anything outside of the authorized supply chain.

Fakes are just fakes.

And that's not an opinion.

You have your finger on the pulse of current trends I see.

But if it was, it would be unanimous......

You nanna whut?

Quick Karl, IceCut, Llama Bob......are these all the same dolts in disguise?

Whoa whoa whoa... That’s a little degrading to dumbasses.

Ole Larry Root was more entertaining...

DF

Moose

So tracking and reliability issues don't make it "hard to set" and "can't forget" because of nagging doubt?

Umm, well sorry. I was not referring to Doug with my comment.
I was actually speaking more about you.

So, there is that. Project away good sir. You're doing spendidly.

Obviously. Why do you think I responded?

I wasn't referring to Doug either, by the way. My comment was aimed squarely at fireball. Even he got that.

The optics forum has apparently turned into a Mensa convention.

Menstrua maybe?

My most appreciated optics post in a long time. Cheers!

Since the windage knob mod.

Hmmm, Mr. Dirtbag....I mean, Dirtfarmer....you sound like a butt-hurt WANNABE SNIPER....allow me to educate you: Here in Alaska we are blessed with many Army/Air Force, etc. military bases. There are thousands of active duty and recently retired troops up here that moved from all over the USA. Quite a few, are....work with me now....REAL SNIPERS fresh from Afghanistan, Iraq, etc. We shoot with them....not dirtbag wannabes......

Now, do a little bit of research and get yourself a REAL SCOPE!

Well Doug, it seems the thread has degraded into child's play. Just a bitchy day at the beach.....

It would be nice to be able to just close it, and let it die.

No, that would be the "Hunter's Campfire."

In case anyone wonders why manufacturers would ignore this. They probably think there are a bunch of 12 year olds here.

That's what happens when the hall monitor is away .

Yep another thread in the dumper. Doug thank you for at least asking and perhaps feedback to Leupold. Not thinking much will happen, but if one does not try..

Dirtfarmer is a GoodGuy and respected member here. You're a dumbass. F u c k off.

Anybody discontent? Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.

Solidarity with the Dirt Farmer? I bet you are his girlfriend!

Trolls are out after dark.

I’d trade this batch for the old days, back when Bricktop was working on that master troll, Larry Root. At least that had some entertainment value.

DF

Right there with ya.

Plus 2 dirt is a good one. This Alaskan is pretty happy to know a guy that knows a guy. LOL.

Solidarity with the Dirt Farmer? I bet you are his girlfriend![/quote]


Someone is asking you if you are taken boomer. Maybe we can get a picture of his mouth as a resume. 😎😂😂🤣😂😂🤣

Do not forget about Safariman.

+1

You have made a comment twice that I have seen, or at least that I have heard before... I am trying to figure out whether you were the lying POS blowhard that I heard say it or the schlong-sucking sycophant holding onto her every word.

Are you the 5'6" one or the tallish, fat one that could not get out of her own way?

You are FOS on the numbers of real snipers, here or anywhere. And in point of fact, they have enough discipline to run from nothing, except losers like you and the "other one."

Funniest thing was seeing them pulling the same Mutt and Jeff routine in two different establishments.

Doug,

You may have gotten about all you need in the way of "constructive criticism" which you ask for. It is getting too crazy now. The nasty kids can't find another thread to be nasty in, so yes, Hopefully Leupold will ignore just the stupid posts on this thread and not the whole thread. I will agree with a few others, shutting it down would be a good idea. RJ

Those were the days.

Back then no one could have projected forward in time where they would actually be missed.

DF

Yes. I would like to thank everyone (well almost everyone) who participated in this thread. I hope that it will accomplish it's original goal.

If I had the power to close the thread at this time I would, however, only Rick has that ability.

I hope to start another thread shortly stating what the outcome of my discussions with Leupold are. Thanks again

Thanks Doug, I'm not holding my breath that Leupold will retain any of the feedback you bring them.
My experiences with Leupold's were great through the earlier years. But all the good ones were from the 70's through the early 90's.
Anything purchased after that has not been as satisfying, nor as precise nor successful in getting to, or returning to zero.

some people are still thankful for you trying to do something

Absolutely.

We appreciate all that you do, Doug.

I hope when the Leupold people read this thread, they understand that this optics thread, for some reason, seems to be a magnet for trolls and getting into the weeds. BUT, there is good stuff here and one has to resist being distracted by the frivolous from core content.

Someone mentioned they should look at the old Weaver Micro Track system. Their glass wasn't the best, in fact not as good as some entry level Chinese glass, but those scopes tracked very well. I don't see why Leupold can't make a more robust tracking system in an otherwise great scope.

DF

Yes Doug, some of us really appreciate what you are doing. The outcome is certainly out of our hands but I support you nevertheless. Also thanks for bringing some good optics buys to the table. Happy Trails, Steve

Thanks for the kind words Steve, I appreciate it.

Doug.
Thank you for the effort.
dave

Doug,

Leupold would have had to spend some research dollars to get a few of the honest comments posted here - tell them to take it off of your bill.
Thanks for taking the time.

Hell yes. Ive never bought from Doug, but i think i will in the near future.

Best prices and best customer advocate you're likely to find, if there's an issue with the product.

Yep.

Sometimes he can get their attention when we can’t.

AND, he’ll go to bat for his customers!

DF

Doug HAS gone to bat for me as a customer, and that is a clear differentiator when I choose where to buy my optics. Having him start the conversation with a company made things seemingly go much smoother. At the end of the day I was very happy with both CLNY and with the optics company. Leupold would be wise to at least listen.

Doug, as a way of saying thanks, I'll prune out all of the constructive posts and post them as a stand alone post. If you think Leupold would benefit from it, I will do it.

Paul,

You gonna lose the ambience of the Fire, especially the optics forum.

How can someone eat a chicken wing after the bones have been removed...



DF

I appreciate it, however, I do know they've been reading this thread and I'm sure they've "filtered" the worthwhile from the "extra added attractions"

MLGA, make leupold great again.

This...Great people to deal with.

What to do, what to do. I will be taking my 338-06 to NE BC next year for goat, moose and elk and it currently wears a bought new well used 1994 vintage Vari-X III 2.5-8X. I recently acquired a 2-10X VX5-HD that I planned on mounting and taking on the hunt...

Does it appear that Leupold's quality control has slipped? I can't agree because I don't see it with my L scopes. But I don't doubt the testimonials either. I bought my last L scope two years ago - a VXR 3-9x40. Its been in an airboat traveling over 50 miles of the Talkeetna River, backpacked 10 days up steep mountains onto the tundra with a last day average caribou. Means more than a day one monster. After that it went snowshoeing in the New Mexico mountains for a cow elk. Now all things can and do break. If Leupold has cut corners, then they deserve the wrath of the faithful. They should look to Camera Land to see what a correct business model looks like. But to those who like to "jerk around", please respect what Doug is trying to do.

Here are my Leupold products.



The bottom 3 are Redfield Revolution scopes with Accurange reticles. Fantastic scopes that to the best of my memory adjusted pretty close to as they should. They have been set and forget scopes. The glass and weight are best in the price class.

Next up is an old friction Vari X-1. It pretty well behaved as it should, but the Ruger it's on isn't terribly accurate, so I dis have to twist a bit to get it set.
Going up from there: a new VX-1, two silver VX-II and two VX-3. Again, weight and glass are price class leading. To the best of my recollection getting these set was an adventure.

My most accurate rifles don't wear Leupold. I twist them on occasion. I'd like for them to wear Leupold because I am big on made in the USA, but I have consumed enough reliable information to have doubts about how they would perform with regular twisting.

Summary: Love the glass, love the weight, love that I have set them and have never had to adjust them, love that they are made in the USA and love that they have been reliable once set. I should add that I don't shoot a whole lot. Don't love chasing bullseyes while dialing them in. It's maddening. Don't love what I have come to believe is a lack of reliability when dialing Leupolds. I do love what I have read about Leupold customer service.

My most recent scope purchases have not been Leupold. Leupold has some work to do. I hope they'll do it, but I have my doubts. I think they have done what Ruger has done in accepting customer returns as a part of their QC process. That's a damn shame too because Leupold is my favorite scope maker and Ruger is my favorite gun maker, but they are both unquestionably taking their customers for granted, and neither seems to give a damn.

When the bean counters run the store and the engineer/Loony types are in the back seat, it takes a toll.

A rush to the bottom line can leave some gaps along the way.

If one takes care of business, of customers, the bottom line will take care of itself.

Can't get the cart ahead of the horse.

But it seems to happen over and over.

DF

I'd like to see Leupold update and upgrade - and then provide proof - of their engineering and quality control tests. Take a look at those for Nikon, as an example. It would go a long way to restoring confidence. (Not that a Nikon can't fail, but, at least you know how they are tested).

That depends. Are you bragging, or complaining?

Cumbaya...

Is the oft-refrenced erector issue due to design flaw or materials? Aren't they often better after a rebuild? If so, are the rebuild parts sourced differently?


The FireDot is pure awesomeness.

That sounds fun! Have a blast. Write up a trip report for us. Good luck!

Good luck with that one. I've asked the same thing perhaps three times with no response, or even a WAG. Not knowing the answer makes it seem possible that if one gets sent back enough times, eventually it'll fall into the hands of a good repaiman who'll luck into good repair parts, then all will be well.

In the absence of an answer, I have to fall back on the reports of reliable sources who've sent scopes back repeatedly that either weren't repaired or were fixed and broke again, and add in ones where the tech said nothing was found to be wrong, and conclude that design, poor components, and QC all play a part at times, singly or in combination. All those possibilities could be taken care of if the company honchos wanted to.

Still holding my breath with my VX-5.

I had 2 Leopold dialers rebuilt 3 times each due to weak errector springs. They did not put in a different type of spring on the rebuild. As a result, problems developed between 250 and 300 rounds. The Leopold rep said they weren't strong enough for what I was doing with them,which wasn't that strenuous. That was about 6 years ago. Those 2 scopes went down the road. Replaced with SS scopes. No problems since.

Worrying.

"Let's work together with and on Leupold "

If Doug can get Leupold to listen, I'd like to know what he eats for breakfast! Thanks for trying just the same.

Please excuse my skepticism and negativity. It's more directed at Leupold. I'm sure if you ask them, they are all that. You'd hear all about numbers and market share, new lines, profit margins, features.

But if you ask people that use their products, they fail. I'm one of those guys. What matters most to me, Leupolds opinion of themselves, or my experience with their products? Too big for their britches IMO.

Sums it up rather nicely.

They dont fail regularly if anyone asked me.

Now, those scopes would have been fine for the guy that has 70 bolt action rifles and 30 extra leupold scopes (sound familiar here) lying around. Im imagining a lot of those guys that have never had a leupold "failure", are more collectors than "shooters". Im thinking Leupold should (when they weed through this schit) listen to those of us that actually shoot and have had real failures. We are only a small percentage of hunters and shooters here, compared to the populus of the world, but with as many failures a lot of us have had with Leupold, they are probably well aware of the problems their products have. I cant imagine the amount that are sent back for warranty repair each year. There must be an obvious reason, why, they choose NOT to nip the problem in the bud....

Understood Ed, I believe that is the main point of the ire towards Leupold. People spent a lot of time and money organizing hunts these days and you certainly wouldn't want to risk success due to a product failure.
If I was you I would stick with tried & true... not worth the risk

I will repeat, the items were ordered through my LGS that got them from well known suppliers (Sports South, Ellets or ?).
Usually order by Tues, and get by Friday.
Used to work for that shop too.............they never bought from grey market.

Sorry, for some reason I thought you were a big Leuopold fan. I agree with irf, on a hunt like that it's not worth the risk, and personally I wouldn't want to go on a hunt like that with a scope I didn't have confidence in.

Stock second from top is dead sexy.

It transformed the handling of the gun completely. I still haven't rung it out good yet.

If they know and do nothing, that’s arrogance.

If they don’t know, and don’t know that they don’t know, they’re deceived.

Both bad.

Not too unlike a “12 step” program. #1 is admitting you have a problem.

Gotta pass by #1 before moving on to a solution.

No #1, no solution.

We’ll see.

DF

Just out of curiosity, who has run the VX-Freedom through it's paces? Is it an improvement?

Don't think any here were brave enough to buy one.....

Cowboy Tim,

Asking the anti-Leupold clique here about a VX-Freedom scope is like asking AOC what she thinks of Trump. Group think and "butt hurt" feelings run deep in this crowd. Objectivity is not happening. I wonder if some of these guys are shills for competing optics companies....

They are right, you are a friggin idiot..... I love and hate Leupolds for all the reasons mentioned..... group think ... you fuggin moron

Hmm...just because you bought a Sitka beanie in Amazon does not make you an Alaskan. Of course, you don't know any snipers up here. They only open up to people WHO CAN SHOOT........I wonder if they let you through the gate at Ft. Rich or Elmendorf....you probably don't even know where that is.....

Tell us what you love about them....(but, if you are going to keep membership in the "wannabe butt hurt sniper clique" you must not forget the negatives)......

Fuggin moron, you can call Sitka a lot of things but he is Alaskan through & through..... good or bad...

This you fuggin moron....

Ok IceCut, put up or shut up.... post pic's

Or are you all mouth?

The things I HATE about Leupold have been expressed here over & over and my experience concurs.......

It takes me many Leupolds to find one I trust

This one I trust... it is probably 30 yrs old and is almost yellow when you look through it. 7.5 lb 338 mag.

Set and forget is all they are good for.... and even then it takes several to find a good one...

Cricket's.....

IceCut is just another internet wanna be hard azz

This about sums it up

Other scope manufacturers left Leupold behind in these aspects

Including Tasco... hahaha I have a Vortex cossfire I got on sale for about $99 that out performs most Leupolds in the tracking dept.

Then how do we know they haven't already taken steps to address the tracking problems?

We don't. For my part, with little need for another scope just now, and other choices, what's my motivation for taking an expensive chance on one? Certainly I'm not going to do it for their benefit. When I took a chance on a Tract early on, Jon promised to take it back if I wasn't happy with it. He had something to prove, as does Leupold at this point, IMO. Honestly, I'm just gonna ride out the ones I have, and look elsewhere when I need new ones because I don't want the aggravation of dealing with CS.

Very nice rifle buddy. I don't know which one you got there. But, you don't know how many M8 4x's I've given away. A lot of the pre 64's and a CZ 550 9.3x62mm that I bought, came with that particular scope. Those old timers knew they were good, I guess...

You go to a range?

Why not just stand up next to an oak tree? Or lean over the hood of your 1973 F100?

Leupold has nothing to prove imo. Their “market” is clear. Just like NF and SWFA clearly hit their market and have nothing to prove to “set and forget” folks that complain about the weight or exposed turrets.

I hope swfa takes another swing at their lightweight variable.

That's it in a nutshell.

Well said, that was the 400th post on this thread. The other 90% of the posts were mostly BS.

I see no problem with "set and forget" if that's what one wants.
My guess is that not all are Fudds.

Page back somebody asked about Freedom line tracking.
I have the 3-9 EFR and it adjusted right in during zero.
Non eventful in that regard.
Have not done anything else with it.
Rifle is zeroed. But is just a .22rf. It has not shifted impact since set.

I used to primarily buy Leupold but haven't purchased one in 10+ years since they really fell behind the curve compared to companies like Bushnell, Weaver, SWFA, Vortex, Athlon, etc who decided to listen to hunters/shooters and produce optics with useful illuminated/mil/etched reticles, 5x+ magnification, useful dials (10-mil w/ zero-stop).

In business....if you are not growing you are dying

You must prove yourself every single day.

Not sure why you posted this, the lowest recoil round ever. Not a great testimony of long term use.

Wowsa...

If a company makes a scope, markets it as a certain type of scope and sells it to a particular niche in the market then yes they do need to prove themselves... Leupold has a tactical line as well as offerings in a hunting scope with exposed turrets designed primarily for dialing... Otherwise all their turrets would be capped... They turn out a schitt product and are knowledgeable of its short comings but still neglect to do anything to improve or correct it... Either prove they are able to satisfy that niche or do away with the product lines... If they are relying on the set and forget market then why not focus only on that aspect of it and have a stellar reputation instead of trying to satisfy all markets and have a well below average reputation...

The set it & forget it crowd are a loyal bunch...... I agree 100% with elkhuninguide, btw

Recoil is but one factor. I also see no claim of long-term anything. I'm using my hall pass to veto yours.

Dollars ?

There's plenty of reports that they don't work for set and forget.

I suppose those counting the dollars couldn’t care less about the end users... that is until the dollar count gets lower and lower... Selling one’s reputation for a minimal profit is only telling of the true character of a company and what is to come in the future...

Sad that a once great reputation will go to schitt over less than $50 worth of materials per optic...

You don't know anything about manufacturing, cost of production and the rest. Why come off on here as an expert ?

That is why I have mentioned close this thread, because we get the idiots, dopes and the rest popping off.

Rick should totally make you the Leupold Assist thread super duper moderator.

Like if you have a clue... How does a once solid reputation on a product go to schitt... Cheaper parts of lesser quality... If that’s not obvious to you then you should move on... I’m not trying to come off as an expert or claim to be one either... I do know I’ve seen more Leupold scopes fail than you own or have touched first hand...

Do you have anything useful to add here or are you just sticking out your ribs when you type to get noticed...