Communism works to destroy souls. It destroys out institutions, beliefs and traditions.

Marx was a Satanist.

No correlation. Communists kicked God out of schools. In other words, communists were in schools while God was in schools. Then the communists took over the schools. They changed the structure of the curriculum to one who which deifies the government. Then in order to to finalize the transition, they removed any competition to the communist God (government).

I suspect very strongly that God will deal rather harshly with the Communists come Judgement Day.

Little children get raped, tortured, murdered everyday and no higher power stops it. Please explain this in a way that I can grasp, and I'll believe again.

More importantly, at least as concerns his disposition for degrading the world the White man built, he was an ethnic Jew.

And just like so many other Jews that "accidentally" ended up the figurehead of a global institution, he practiced exactly zero of what he preached.

They kicked Christianity out of the schools and replaced it with politics. Those who were absent in their childrens' education shouldn't be shocked how they turned out.

Politics is their god. Anyone who disagrees with their theology is considered a heretic and treated as such.

What you mean we.I don`t remember having anything to do with that.

HE helped it happen a whole lot less when i was a kid. Sweden went from one of the countries with the lowest cases of rape to the rape capitol of the modern world in the last 50 years.

If this country hadnt been inundated by athiest progressive dimocraps and Africans we would have one of the lowest crime rates in the world.

Agreed. Iirc, its sometimes used as a figure of speech.

I think i meant we, as in us US citizens. So, you stopped them from kicking God out of schools?

The communist are the teachers which teach a marxist agenda.

For Jack, well, I guess that is a good/fair question. I wish I could give you, and anyone else with the same question an answer you'd like to hear.

I'm guilty of a highjack here. Jack, if you can refind even a tiny bit if the faith you had, let Jesus shine on it.

I believe that when sin entered the world, it held the door open for sorrow, death, illness, despair, and every other awful thing. They snuck in right behind sin. And sin wreaks havoc on the world. Instances such as the ones you mentioned above are part of the global consequences of sin in the world. The presence of sin in the world is why these things happen. It’s not fair. I understand why you, or anybody else struggles with it. I struggle with it. But there it is.

Well said Antlers, sin is the cause of all the evil.

Communism is not necessarily related to Atheism.

An atheist may hold any number of political or ideological beliefs or positions.

Atheism is nothing more than a lack of conviction in the existence of a God or gods. Anything else is incidental.

How true.
It was highly organized into influential structures in the past century. The first phase was religion. Those holding to the marxist philosophies trained ministers in the seminaries. The pastors led the churches under influence of some denomination heads that they often disagreed with.
There were even competitions in the first decade of the last century to promote eugenics by many mainline churches. Even back then, there were serious issues infiltrating many churches.

The public educational system was orchestrated after the Prussian model . Then by the 1960s they were ready to begin their plans to replace teachers with social engineers with Marxist ideology. This began when they took the positions in the universities/colleges. I could speak to classes and the influences here. I don't paint all teachers or professors, or ministers with the same paint brush. Many friends in these ares would agree with our analysis of the problem.
When you look at the general transformations in American history, there's been a major shift.

If you want god in schools, then allow all gods
in schools, since no bigoted faith Christian has ever proven that all other gods are false.

We are what we are and our behaviour flows from our condition. If we are created by 'God' it is God who made us flawed and fallable. Free will is not an excuse.

Good. You will have no excuse, well, other than stupidity.

DBT,

their God wouldn't have it (sin) any other way.
the script was written prior to Adam and the
Big Bang.. 😂

GFY. Was this nation dedicated to Ally?

Joo

If not for Eve, we'd be living in the Garden of Eden.

It might feel good to kick God, but there is a reason for the saying, "HE who laughs last.....".

Come on Jack. Be nice, then when you get to Heaven you can spit on GOD for WW2.

Wrong.

If not for Adam taking Eves advice.

We may not have much choice on the schools, we can sure fire keep The Lord God Jesus in our hearts.

You missed the point.

When will Christianity address its shortcomings?

Every supposed christian on the CF fails to address
them.

I agree, heinous crimes against children is a sin. But what possible reason could there be for a higher power/God, to allow such sickening things to happen to such innocent victims? There's no way I can wrap my mind around it.
There's absolutely no reason that a God, could allow this to happen. Thus my dilemma.

You know, Jack, you're right and God is wrong. Its apparent that with your high IQ you have HIM behind the 8 ball. You've accomplished what the the greatest angel couldnt do.

Your logic has completely defeated Him. All right. Good job. Such logic and originality. Congrats.

Why, if HE had a reason for what HE does or why, we would know it and be able to explain it to you. Since we cant, that means youre the winner.

Why did He allow it...? I don’t know. It’s a conundrum for LOTS of us...and for good reason. He allowed it, He had His reasons for doing so, and I sure as heck can’t discern it. Bad things happen to good people. Bad things happen to innocent children. He allowed horrible pain, suffering, and death to happen to the best possible person. He was without sin, and yet...He was tortured and executed. His ways are not my ways...and it would be folly for me to imagine such a thing. Although I want to know why...I don’t have to know why. He knows. And it’s His knowing that is overwhelming to me, it’s His knowing that is completely real to me. And I don’t want to be apart from Him just because I can’t grasp all of this. He can grasp it.

It's not so much that God allows bad things to happen, but that there appears to be no sign of a God in the world and its events.

Never underestimate the power of faith,
Christians that claim to see the devil
in their chidren and kill them, and those
Muslims that detonate suicide vests
are driven by faith... and it was those of
faith that gleed in witch hunts and burnings,
blamed jews for the black plague..

The CF has kooks of similar mindset.

It's something that many if us consider important enough to think about.
Some excellent points have been made better than me. There's much to think about.
Sometimes the most profound mysteries have simple answers. If everyone will kindly read this patiently with an open mind, maybe this great mystery will become clear. It is truly a mystery, but it is one with an answer.

I start off with the basic attributes of God as He reveals to mankind from the Bible.
He is love, gracious, righteous and just. There are others, but these are some primary attributes.

As beings with free will, we complicate things.
Multiply that and complication is an understatement.
Here's a relatable example.

Dad loves his boy Johnny.
Dad buys John a car.
He tells him the rules. Teaches John how to properly use it and enjoy it responsibly.
John does as he's told for a year or two.
After a while, John becomes independent and wants to do things his way, not Dads way.
John takes risks.....pushes the envelope.
He acts like he's invincible and violates most of the safety rules.
John takes risks, not just by himself, but with his girlfriend and buddies.
Sadly, he wraps the car around a tree.
Girlfriend dies.....her parents suffer.
Same with the other boys, except one who is permanently disabled....John.

John says, " I'm sorry. I promise to never do it again." In his tearful apology to the girlfriends parents, little brother, and sis.
Then he goes to the families of the dead buddies.
He asks, " How can I make it up to you? I am so so sorry." "Can I work off my debt to you? Can I reform and make myself better?? Will that make everything alright?"

"John then goes to Dad and says, now I'm ready to follow your rules. I won't mess up again. Promise. "

Guess what?

No amount of excuses or apologies can make John right with anyone who died, anyone who suffered, not even his heartbroken dad.

Can John blame his Dad for not preparing him to drive safely?
Can he rightfully blame his dad for giving him the keys to the car and freedom to use it?
Can John blame his dad for all of the suffering that John caused to his friends and their families?

I'm not trying to be unkind. We all have room to learn something new, especially me. First thing tomorrow morning, that I plan to do, is open the Bible and ask my Dad to help me to understand things that I need to learn and know better.
I'm not good, but He is. I couldn't blame Him or anyone else for my behavior. I couldn't do anything to make up for the wrong things I've done. No apologies....no reformation....no good works can make up for the bad.
The Bible reveals this about all of us.

He took me in like a bad kid off of the street that hurt myself and others.
He adopted me into His family. It wasn't because I was like the pick of the litter. No. I had nothing going for me that He would want me. He's not impressed with my "good deeds".
"It's not by deeds of righteousness which we have done..." Titus 3:5

The one and ONLY thing that would make things right.
That is His FORGIVENESS.
I needed that as the kid named Johnny did. Were there still consequences for breaking the rules? Of course.
But keep in mind that Johnny, me, anyone else can't make up for our wrong doings.
The Good Lord saved everyone's life here at one point or another. He gave us another chance to receive His forgiveness. Maybe that's what you need too?
If that's the case, below I will post a video that will fill in the details needed for that forgiveness from God. I'm available for Q&A too.

Don't end this great thread on this solemn post.
I'm just trying to do someone/anyone a favor by tackling a good question.

Dad didnt cut Johnnie's brake lines,
but a God purposely put the craftiest
creature in the garden to ensure
Adam and Eve would take the bait.

Another far less capable creature may have
given them a better chance, but God evidently
wanted the naive couple to crash and burn.

Was Adam and Lilith originally wasn't it? Lilith wouldn't take Adam's schit and got converted I thought.

The bible doesn't describe a benevolent God.

Lilith departed the garden of her own free will,
even the angels God sent to retrieve her had
no luck in convincing her to return...
Eve wanted to return but God placed a cherubim
with sword to prevent her re-entry.

There was no christian invention burning hell punishment at the time all this happened.
Hell was still a peaceful sleep state place
where the dead knew of nothing.

they are the 2 things that cause most of the problems on earth. both have caused many wars.

Yes indeed.

"From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members? Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not."
James 4

"And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet."
Matthew 24

Christ will put an end to this some day.

Re: OP It wouldn't matter if God was kicked out of the schools, if He hadn't been kicked out of so many families.

Re: Jackmountain There are lots of criminals walking around free while their cases are being investigated and made against them. Eventually, they will pay for their crimes. Likewise, God in his own good time will deal with the evil of this world, and especially so those who have harmed children. For whatever His reasons are, He desires for us to have the faith to believe, love, and trust in Him. Someone who gives us what we want, when we want it (no matter how noble our desires may be) does not require belief, love, or trust. Please don't let your impatience (which I share, by the way) get in the way of your faith.

........SIMPLE!.....God created mankind not to be mindless robots. Mankind has the power of FREE WILL enabling the power of choice. Choices to do good AND choices to do evil. Right vs wrong. And in the process of doing or choosing evil, innocent lives are lost at the hands of those who choose evil.

God is not gonna send down a lightening bolt to stop evil people from murdering, raping and torturing children ahead of time which is what you would like to see. Our mortal human reasoning cannot understand that.

All accounts will be settled at the Last or Final Judgement.

The problem of evil has been hashed out for nigh as long as Christianity has existed. Austine, Iranaeus, Aquinas, Luther, Dewey, among others. Heck, I bet even Calvin and/or Zwingli took a whack at it, but I have overlooked it thus far. I am sure if you looked into their theodicy, you'd find something you could grasp, if not accept.

The riddle of Epicurus.....

What makes Christians pretent to know who
the innocent are in their Gods eyes?..

All of mankind are wicked coz they carry
the seed of Cain, or is that not the case?

Does the christian god differentiate one
wicked person from another?

Not the free will excuse again. People act according to their character and personality, which shapes and forms their will....personality and character is formed through a combination of genetics and life experiences, non chosen location of birth, family, language, culture, economic class, etc, which all contributes into shaping our lives and our will.

The term 'free will' tells us nothing about human behaviour or decision making.

The absurdity about christians is that they find
the act of ritual human sacrifice practices as
wrong, yet they look up to a deity that made a
human sacrifice of his own son.

Thus wouldn't mans lot improve if we still threw
virgins into active volcanoes, or sacrificed humans
in a ritual pyre like the Druids did?

Things point to man creating a God in his
own likeness rather than a God creating
man in his likeness.

Satan imitates and twists what God has done or said through His prophets. That's why there's a bunch of perverted, immoral religious practices among false christianity and religions. They have similar superficial features as cheap imitations of the real.

Satan cares nothing of mankind.

"God so loved the world that HE GAVE HIS only begotten Son". Spoken by the Son.

Evil people like satanists and druids enjoy their drunken orgies to the sounds of tortured souls. Burning alive little girls is part of their satanic rituals. Those demon-strations go on today in occult and by invitation only. They don't atone to the true God Almighty. Those pagans offer little helpless children as appeasement to their false devil gods. I had to deal with one of those wicked SOBs, sons of belial, who decided to manifest and murder me once. Guess who won?
God Almighty gave the victory.

Jesus was THE Only acceptable Sacrifice for sins forever.

"By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all...
But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God...
Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin." Hebrews 10

Now, that's love.

God so loved the world that He gave us Satan.

But seriously, Satan, the Devil fighting against God is a late development, Christian theology. Satan in Judaism is an agent of God, doing the will of God.

DBT,

I don't have much time to get into that right now, but this guy explains what I think on the matter pretty well.

I don't have a spare hour for video watching....the first five minutes looked like Christian theology, which is not the same as Judaism/the old testament/Torah.

If you don't mind me asking, Are you Jewish?

It is a Christian sermon. He explained the Torah and the Prophets whenever Satan/devil was mentioned though.
He covered the Job reference that you mentioned too.

It's not personal, I'm just discussing different beliefs. In this instance, that Satan in opposition to God was developed in Christian theology.

Camper sounds like another Christian apologist.
where genocide, human sacrifice, incest, etc are
all acceptable when his God sanctions such.

Can camper explain how Jesus can be the Messiah
when he doesn't meet the O.T. messianic criteria?

Maybe this guy could help you, Starman.

No, I'm pure Texan, by way of the Israelites (who fulfilled His prophecy by being scattered to the 4 corners of the earth and losing their identity as opposed to the Jews of tribe Judah who He said would never lose theirs) who migrated over the Caucus Mts (ergo Caucasians) who settled Spain, Sweden, Norway, Denmark (Mark of Dan tribe),Scotland, Ireland, and Great Britain (Contraction from Great Birth Nation).

Specifically family is from England, Sweden and Denmark.

We can blame God for creating mosquitoes, thistles, poisonous creatures and all the worthless things on the earth, including Starman. I forgive Him for all but Starman, he really is the biggest mistake.

Like a minion of Satan.

Thank God.

Send your kids to a Christian or whatever kind of school if you want....but leave us out of it.

No worries.
I don't normally debate either. I'm open to discussing my beliefs though. Always feel free to PM.

Texas is one of my favorite states.
I was privileged to get acquainted with a hand full of good families over one summer traveling through texas.
I used to know a preacher that was raised there and invited me to assist him back then.
There's thousands of preachers in Texas, so you probably never heard of him, but here's a little bio.

https://joeboydfoundation.com

Who was trying to send your kids to a Christian school?

And now we see why we are where we are.

Do you reject also the Declaration of Independence and its proclamation that we are endowed with inalienable rights?

I was reading Galatians this week and thought about the difficulty that most believers have getting used to thinking of ourselves according to the N.T. promises there.....namely, as children of Abraham.
Galatians 3:6-7, 29

As long as I keep paying the taxes that fund the public schools, right? How about this: Send your kids to a secular or whatever kind of school you want...but leave us out of it. You pay for your choice and I'll pay for mine. But that's not how it works at present, everyone has to pay for your choice.

What's goin' on here? You made a post I agree with!

And the undeniable rise in high school pregnancies and unwed mothers and pre and post natal care and lifetimes of resulting poor welfare dimocraps.

Yep, the communists Cloward-Piven Strategy to bankrupt the US has been working out for us real well.

Happy Camper,

Fantastic post.

Maybe thats why He's whacked the stiff necked suckers so much.

Thank you Ringman.
Are you referring to the one on the previous page as a response to the question, followed by the gospel video post, or the one about paganism and satanism above?

An infinite Supreme intelligence being
created worthless things,.. Where is that
written in scripture?

anyway good to see santa brought you
the skateboard you always wanted..

So you share the pastors view that google Siri tech.
is "creepy", but praying to a God that doesnt answer
you is perfectly rational and sane.

A pastor who lives by subjective belief superstitions
and mythology , but can't do without a modern science
smartphone and Google owned Utube, all whilst condemning Google Siri.... Tff.

Backward folks used to think photographs were creepy
and evil. but departed from their ignorance and come
to accept such as Innovation and science,.. now its the
science of Siri they have something against.

And some want such kind of Bible thumping
dipschits in the education system teaching
their children.

btw:.. is pastor Anderson a young earth creationist?..
or a rebel heretic?

Coming from you guys who fantasize about paddling other people's children in class!

Start your own "Christian" schools and paddle behinds till your arms are tired.

We will kindly let you have at it.

It's a shame that pastors have opinions isn't it?
Those should be reserved for atheists, agnostics, and technophiles.

He can have his opinion. and remain ignorant if he
so chooses...hot gospelling hypocrite crap bag
pastors do so well only because so many gullible peabrains exist in the world.

You still fail to explain how Jesus can be messiah
without meeting the Biblical messianic criteria.

Jaguartx: Traditional values (including prohibiting prayer in school!) is only ONE of a myriad of societal/political reasons why our country is turning communist/anti-American!
If you like I will post a list.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

I don’t know about google Siri but I DO KNOW that God answers my prayers.....or at least has answered my prayers. I’m not interested in arguing or debating the things that I know to be true in my life and in my experiences. As a firefighter/EMT for many years I witnessed some awful things, things that you never forget, things that still wake me up in the middle of the night but I also witnessed miracles that could not have been possible without divine intervention. I’ve been the recipient of answered prayers and I’ve been a witness to other’s whose prayers have been answered.

I don’t pretend to believe that I can change hardened hearts or minds that have been made up. I also know that there’s NOTHING that someone could say that would change my mind. I saw what I saw and I believe what I believe....you can make fun of me and laugh at my experiences because it matters not to me. I’ll go to my grave thanking God for the blessings he’s bestowed upon me and mine.

For sure, Ace. Only HE can and He only will if one asks Him into their heart.

Or maybe people just like to believe in things that make them feel good and get upset if it is questioned?

True. The other ills pretty much follow after turning from HIM Im thinking.

I've got to get my mowing done before dark....if my peabrain can remember how to start it.
In the meantime I will try to figure out if you are seeking to learn Who the Messiah is or just want to debate.
Peace

Who's upset. I'd just as soon you go to hell in a handbasket. I get upset at heathens like dimocraps, commies, blm, antifa, muzzies turning a once Christian nation, my home, into a third world piece of crap.

I have atheist friends who have brains and morals that i hunt and fish with, but they dont contribute to destroying this nation. I have no friends who are dimocraps. They are too stupid to be friends with.

I reserve the right to the 1A and will call a liar like you a liar. I actually prefer you go to hell, but thats the sinner in me. I only witness for Him as He tells me to spread the good news and HE loves ypu, for what reason I have no clue. I have no idea as to why He has put scales on the eyes of some or hardened the hearts of others. Thats His business.

But HE isnt a liar. There was a time I was a lot sorrier pos than I am now and I know who changed me and it was He, not me. Im just thankful for Him answering my asking Him to come into my heart and change and save me and make me a believer. HE did.

He would do the same for you if you really wanted Him to. Its no skin off my ass.

Your curse for being a liar DBT is that you project your own attributes into others and that makes you think they are liars like you.

A thousand people can tell you the truth, on anything, and youre going to think they are lying.

You think all who tell you what a change Christ has made in them are lying, or you dont want to live as them and then you lie and deny that.

Just because you havent experienced something doesnt mean others havent.

There are a lot of great people on this earth who arent believers. They arent going around lying and telling others they are wrong in being believers.

Must? .. Or you are just being christian like
and conveniently imagining what suites you.





subjective impressionable minds like yours
just keep whirling around and rarely manage
to figure anything out in a rational sense.

You are simply avoiding the question by using
a convoluted lame excuse.

I suspect you don't actually know the O. T.
messianic criteria - or you don't like to
acknowledge such coz it contradicts your
Christian belief.

Agreed.
And some clearly can’t stand it that others choose to do that.

When have I lied? Making false accusations on an anonymous forum is cowardly act. Support your accusation or apologize like man.

The Founding fathers put the nation on
the path to being 1st world modern by
accepting science and secular law.

If left to nutter control freak church goers
with ignorance, suspicion, and bias against
science and dislike of separation of Church
and state,.. how would the nation have fared?

Your insinuations that people are wrong to believe or that we believers do so to feel better is a lie.

Let me know when you prove GOD is a liar. HE said you were. Thats good enough for me.

Tell HIM you arent a liar. Guess who i will believe.

Show me the person who never lied and ill show the person who never lived.

PS. Youre a sinner too.

I said nothing about the right to believe, we all have the right to believe whatever we like....the question is why. Why people believe in things that have no evidence, Allah, Brahman, Yahweh, etc...

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

I am questioning. Questioning is not lying. Insinuating is not lying. Give one example of where I have lied or apologize like a man.

Don't try to weasel out of this. Grow up, be a man and take responsibility for your accusations.

Absence of evidence does not justify a belief in existence. Absence of evidence where it should be found is evidence of absence.

Come on men, let's not quibble, rather we should worship Our Lord.

DBT,

jX doesn't even understand a simple childrens' fable
about Adam in genesis, it required explaining to him.

Yet these are just the kind of christian that would
have people believe they are God chosen lightbearers.

Carl Sagan agreed with ya’ on this jaguartx.

We don’t war necessarily with powers of flesh and blood but with powers and minions of darkness and their harassment and attacks. Satan and his minions have no power over those of us who are alive in Jesus. Eph 6:10-20

For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength.
1 Corinthians 1:21-25

May God have mercy on those still in darkness.

What you both miss is 'evidence where it should be found.' Absence of evidence where it should be found is evidence for absence.

You believe that you have a carton of milk in the fridge, but upon looking in your fridge, searching for it wherever it could possibly be, you find no milk: absence of evidence where it should be found is evidence for absence.

If God is a reality, there should be clear and unequivocal evidence for the existence of a God. What it says in the GIta, Quran or bible, etc, is not evidence because they were written by people and contradict each other.

The existence of the universe is not evidence for a Creator because there are other possibilities, an eternal cyclic universe, blocktime, multiverse, etc...so we don't know.

Not knowing does not equal God must have done it.

Questioning beliefs, especially ones own, is not darkness but light, the light of reason. Accepting what we are told by priests, pastors or holy books without question is darkness. Without those who questioned what we were told by the Church in the dark ages we would still have inquisitions and witch trials.

Translation = “I absolutely can’t stand it that believers choose to believe in something that I don’t want them to believe in.”

I didn't say that. I didn't imply that. I didn't have that in mind. This not about what you happen to believe or what I happen to believe, but what is true and factual regardless of what you or I happen to believe.

According to who...? You...!
You evidently think that ‘you’ get to decide what these discussions are all about...! Believers are called “believers” for a reason.

Dude, on every single one of these threads regarding believers, you are drawn to them like a moth to a flame, to show unequivocally that you absolutely can’t stand it that believers choose to believe in something that you don’t want them to believe in. Despite your attempts to hide behind “true and factual” on a believers thread.

Says who?

It's not according to me or according to you.

The physical world does not care what I believe or you believe.

The world and the Universe existed long before you or me and our beliefs about it. It is what it is regardless of our beliefs about it.

Darn. I wish the world cared. Not.

Well, i almost did, but i didnt.

According to basic logic and reason. Have you got any evidence that I have lied? No? Be a man and apologise for making false accusation.

Keep in mind what your own book says about bearing false witness...lest you yourself are judged. Better yet, try to grow up, stop being a child and learn to engage in impersonal discussion.

In other words, stick to the subject without making petulant remarks about your opponents.

What you miss is, if there was evidence, otherwise unbelieving people like you would be getting in Heaven and screwing Heaven up.

There is not supposed to be any evidence. HE didnt want any evidence. HE fixed it that way so people like you could say, He shoulda gave us evidence.

When Wabi or jaguartx, or anyone else, starts a ‘believers’ thread...then THAT’S what it’s about...BELIEVERS, and their perspectives on things. It’s not about “the physical world” or “basic logic and reason” or anything else...UNLESS it’s from a believers perspective. It’s an open forum, and anyone can participate on any of em’. But, a ‘believers’ thread is basically and fundamentally about BELIEVERS, and their perspectives on the subject the OP included. You put forth a lot of effort to assert that it’s ‘not’ about that...when it clearly is.

It seems that you don't care that you missed the point. Or didn't you understand what I said?

Does the planet change shape because some folks happen to believe in a flat earth?

Where in title does it say that this is a believers only thread?

You speak on behalf of God?

laffin’ and smh

So God does not exist and the founders didn't rely on God for divine wisdom on setting up our nation and those that sailed over on the Mayflower were not honest to goodness Bible believing people?

How come you don’t EVER start a “basic logic and reason” thread, or a “physical world” thread, or a “evidence where it should be found” thread...? Because...those threads would NOT give you an opportunity to show that you can’t stand it that believers choose to believe in something that ‘you’ don’t want them to believe in...!

Are members who don't believe banned from commenting? Your objection is false. This has nothing to do with me or what I 'want others to believe.'

I don't care what anyone believes, I am simply questioning the validity of beliefs...be they the beliefs of Hinduism, Islam, Christianity, ideology or politics.

The Greeks believed in the Gods of Olympus, they also built cities, developed a culture, philosophy, rational inquiry, etc. Does that mean the Gods of Olympus were real?

still laffin’ and smh
It has *everything* to do with the clear fact that you can’t stand it that believers choose to believe in something that ‘you’ don’t want them to believe in. You show ‘that’ clearly in every single thread along these lines.Yes you do. You show up in every single thread that Wabi, jaguartx, or any other believer starts...and you show exactly and clearly that you have a BIG problem with believers being believers. Period. Despite your tactic of asserting that it’s about “the physical world” or “basic logic and reason” or “questioning the validity of beliefs” or “true and factual” or “evidence where it should be found”, etc. ad nauseam.

Translation = “Because...on those threads, I would NOT be given an opportunity to show that I can’t stand it that believers choose to believe in something that ‘I’ don’t want them to believe in.”

Antlers is going into his cut and paste subterfuge meltdown mode again

Aren’t you tired of gettin’ slapped around here like you *always* do...?

”Meltdown”...? The last time you tried to step up to the plate, YOU ended up callin’ me names...! lol

I'm very familiar with Greek Mythology, we were exposed to it allot in school. Much of it was very interesting too. I also find the Bible interesting. I see your point. I would like to make a point too. No other faith seems to have been more maligned than the Christian one. I wonder why too since in my own mind I feel I've never been a threat to anyone and how they want to believe so it brings me to other reasons.



Here's one that has entered my mind in watching the post on this thread. We that believe in the God of Creation and the one that sent his Son to die on the cross and for me, I won't say for everyone, my faith doesn't come by God proving anything to me. I made a choice to do so. I also made a choice to trust that all I read in the Bible is true. Yes it was written by men but according to the Bible they were inspired by God. So for me to not doubt that I have to accept the entire written word. It's not so much of an acceptance by intellect either but by trusting with my heart. If your heart is not in something none of the rest of you will be either. So if you can't or won't believe in God and His word I doubt anything I can say will change that. I'm just not that smart of a guy to know how to say things. But, I would hope if you knew me in real life you'd see things in my actions that might cause you to wonder why I am the way I am. I would wonder the same about you.



I have often wondered why God just doesn't do away with Satan and end all that's bad. There is no answer for me to in reading the Bible. No doubt others have wondered the same. My only conclusion is that I'm not meant to understand everything in life. It even says so much in the Bible. So I live with it and move on.



One other thing, for now. It amazes me that there are hundreds of things predicted in the Bible years ago that have come to pass. Jesus birth was written about many years before it ever took place. Something I can't get out of my mind is as I watch all that's going on in our nation, which I dearly love, and I look back in our own nations history all that I see that has been good and the wonderful things that we have done seemed to be when we put God first. I've watched as God has been banned from things and see a decline. So for me even if you don't believe in God why would you not want the good that we have had back when we weren't so hateful towards Him? I think that's the way it was viewed by some many years ago too. Maybe they didn't care to go to church or even read the Bible but they found themselves living in a way that mirrored many of the ways God's people lived. It made them better citizens.



One final note. I'm 59 years old. I was saved at 31. My faith is way different than is was back in the beginning. Back then I had the idea allot hinged off of me being able to have the right answer for many of the questions I see here. I thought surely I would be believed. I found out that way of thinking was wrong, on my own too. Now I truly believe that prayer and just staying out of God's way will get more done that anything else. You don't want me shoving anything down your throat and I don't want it from you. You won't get it from me either, Grandpa taught me different.



So I'm going to answer my own question, about the Founders. They were led by God to write what they did. Some were not what we might call Christians but God used them and helped them anyway. These men saw that for people to live and be governed was best if there was a foundation in place and I believe the foundation they chose was the Bible, like Unalienable Rights. They saw these came from God and wrote to enforce them in our Constitution, Bill or Rights and our laws. They did this for our own good. Now it's under attack. Whether you believe in God or not I'd think you'd have to admit we're not heading in the right direction by kicking God out of everything.

Jim1611, I understood that the US constitution had basis on belief in god and was not religion specific, so how does that work? Which version of god gave them their guidance?

Uh, maybe the one that didnt require we cut throats of those who werent believers, or that we became a cow after we died? Duuuuh!

Great post. Thanks. Even though you misspelled something, dont worry about it too much, because i think HE forgives you, even if some of our Fire buds dont.

Thanks, take care and GOD bless.
Jag.

You are making excuses. I made it clear what issue is. Which is not about what I want or believe, or what you want to believe, but what is true regardless of what anyone wants or believes.

Is that too hard to grasp?

Being at a loss when it comes to rational argument, you try to make it personal. Which means you haven't offered a rational argument, you haven't made a case, you have lost the argument.

No, it's clear that you do go into meltdown mode, complaining about your opponent or laffin, laffin, laffin, when you should be addressing the points being raised.

So ALL other gods are real, lest one
subscribes to christian bias and bigotry.

If what you believe brings you comfort and joy, it's nobody's business but your own. It's just that posting beliefs on a discussion forum opens them to questioning.

As to the founders of Judaism and Christianity, both religions involved a long process of development, Judaism borrowed and adapted ideas and stories from surrounding cultures, Christianity and the bible formed through a series of councils. And of course splintered into different groups right from the beginning.

You made it clear that you get pissed off and bothered because believers ‘are’ believers.

So you also get pissed off and bothered because I laugh at what you say, and because I don’t do what ‘you’ think I “should be” doing...? lol

And I certainly don’t consider ‘you’ an “opponent”.

What makes you think that Jim1611 has to be open to ‘your’ questioning...? The man can discuss his beliefs on this matter without being obligated to being open to ‘your’ questioning...!

Where did I do that? You need to back your claim with evidence.

He chose to respond. He was not forced. Nobody is being compelled to respond.

So what...? Doesn’t mean that he has to be open to ‘your’ questioning just because he’s discussing his beliefs...!

What exempts anyone's beliefs from being
Questioned?

Christians have questioned other Christians
for two millennia and counting.
.. even going to war with each other
over mere differences of opinion.

Pagans of various variety over millenia have made
the same claim- crediting their gods for showing
them favor and ensuring success in challenging
circumstances.

We can take that to mean their deities are just
as real, valid and effective as anothers... yet
Christians disparage such deities as being false.

He was discussing his beliefs with me. His choice. Why are you so sad about it? Why is it a problem for you?

Did their gods predict the rise and fall of Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome?

Did their gods predict the unlikely dispersal and reconstitution of Israel?

Did their gods predict the end days being Saudi and Israel against Russia and Iran?

The bible is a mixed bag of vague prophesies, revelation, etc, after the fact and failed prophesies, Tyre, Egypt, the return of Jesus in power and glory within the lifetime of those standing there listening to the words and their promise, etc.

Like these?


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unfulfilled_Christian_religious_predictions

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_dates_predicted_for_apocalyptic_events

Vague to you and not after the fact. The dating of the Dead Sea Scrolls verifies this. God not only gave Daniel the the description of kingdoms that will follow Babylon, but the detailed way Babylon will be defeated and the name of the conqueror. The scroll upon which it is written is 150 years older than the event.

There is no mention of the modern day state of Saudi state, Russia, America, Australia, etc, in the bible.....we have current christian projection and interpretation of symbolic language that actually referred to biblical times and places. Some of it wrong at that, Tyre, Egypt, etc.

I asked if their gods predicted specific events that have come true. You replied with wikipedia results of Jesus’ claim of future false prophets (which has occurred ever since) and, ironically, the predictions of false prophets. Neither are relevant to my questions.

I gave you events of historical evidence. You’re stuck on Tyre and Egypt....which I did not mention.

You are correct in saying it does not mention America, Australia, etc. Notice how I didn’t either? That’s because they are not of significant consequence in the end days. Gog, Magog, Persia and Israel. Dismissing the events I mentioned as symbolic ignores a lot of facts, but thats par for the atheistic side of these debates. Deny everything. Admit nothing. Make counter accusations on irrelevant points.

How Israel has defeated all of its modern adversaries is a miracle in itself. They were attacked on 3 sides almost immediately after becoming the new state. No command & control. No organization. No armor. No air force. They’ve been winning ever since. That should compel any truly inquiring mind, regardless of religious affiliation.

I’ll give you last word, as I only write to inform. Not argue.

There is an unsettling solution for just about everything, and it can be summed up in one word. Grace. It’s the undeserved, unearned, unearnable favor that Jesus came to offer us. So why wouldn’t all of us want the original version of Christianity to be true...?
There’s a big difference between ‘I don’t believe it’s true’ and ‘I don’t want it to be true’.

There are several reasons to know the Founders were influenced by the same God that we as Christians worship. I read the journal entries, or as close to the original ones I could find, of William Bradford. As you know he was the first governor of the newly founded settlements that the Pilgrims established. Those people left England over not being able to worship freely. They were compelled to be Catholics and chose not to. So I think it's very plain they were not Muslim, Buddhist or Hindu. Over the years they grew in number and for the most part they were what settled here. We also had some real honest to goodness slime that came too and they worshiped nothing but themselves.

Also remember the problems we had with the Muslim pirates during Thomas Jefferson's presidency? He considered them an enemy and dealt with them as such. My point is that there is more than enough evidence to see that we were founded as a Christian nation. Nowhere will you find they made it mandatory that it was to be the only faith allowed. They left that part alone. They told us that all men were created equal. Our Constitution never made it so that anyone of any faith could not live here. It still doesn't.

For years our schools were filled with prayer and the Bible. Now it's not allowed. If you want to read the Koran and teach it that's fine though. When our kids grew up with a foundation based on Christianity we had fewer problems. They were not compelled to follow the faith and some never did but as long as they lived according to the basic principals taught in the Bible they did pretty good. So if we want to know what has went wrong we have plenty to lead us to the conclusion that our allowing God to be forsaken as a nation was the cause. My God never forced his way on anyone but the same can't be said of any other.

I don't recall those years. Best keep prayer where it belongs, out of school. If that bothers you so much, send your kids to a private, religious school.
There is a reason for separation of church and state. While many here would love to install a Christian caliphate, you are ignoring and reinventing the Constitution, as many here are wont to do.

You are mistaken. When the founding fathers established this government, it was “installed” in a “Christian caliphate”. God is mentioned 4 times in the Declaration of Independence. He’s mentioned in the Constitution, as well (“...endowed by their Creator.”). They were christians. Any reference to the one true God was reflected by a capitalization of the pronoun.

As far as the separation of church and state, it wasn’t an effort to disregard God or Jesus. It was an establishment of tolerance of the manner in which a person wanted to worship God and to a lesser degree, other religions. This was done to avoid the extent in which the monarchs of England were forcing religion on their subjects. It was not done to promote atheism or denounce christianity in government. They prayed daily in their official capacity.

I do recall them. I grew up in a rural area though. We are sending 2 grandkids to just the type school you suggest. It's working real nice too.

Let me ask you a question. If you prefer "separation of church and state" then what do you think of the Koran being taught in schools? Or allowing Muslim prayer time in schools? And is it wrong for me as an ardent Christian so hold a public office and use my beliefs to form policy?

Also how am I ignoring/reinventing the Constitution?

'The hand that rocks the cradle guides the nation". Over, and over, bring children up in "The Way. They may stray when they are young, but most will come to Christ.

John Newton was as hard hearted and blastphamous. He found Christ during a storm at sea.

Remember this?

Pagan Constantines victory at Milvian Bridge
and consequent rule for 30 yrs was predicted
by the pagan God Apollo.
Constantine honored Sol Invictus the God of
soldiers, so clearly that deity had a hand in
matters.

Prior to this in 272 AD, Aurelian and his soldiers
were inspired by a "divine form" at the Battle of Emesa
against Zenobia... after victory , Aurelian entered the
city and went to the Temple of Elagabalus, where the
apparition again appeared to him....

.. and naturally , more divinely inspired success
followed...

Aurelian triumphantly returned to Rome two
years later, after recovering the Gallic Empire!!
A magnificent temple to Sol was erected, to
which great quantities of gold and jewels
were dedicated, and a new college of pontiffs
established to serve the God.

I don’t know if you are intentionally misleading or just misguided, but only 2 authors write of Constantine’s victory and neither claim Apollo predicted anything. One suggested that Constantine claimed to have seen a burning cross in the sky on the previous day. The other doesn’t mention it. These are written after the battle.

That’s the equivalent of me saying I knew you were going to mention Apollo. I just waited for you to say it first.

A Dead Sea Scroll mentioning Cyrus’ (by his name) attack of Babylon through the river gates on documents that are dated 150 years older than the event is more than a little more substantial.

Start at Isaiah 42:26. It’s not so....how you say.....cryptic as the Apollo claim.

Sorry, I didn't see historical evidence. I did see you refer to things written in the bible...which is not evidence for the truth of the things written in the bible...some of which is demonstrably false, e.g, Tyre, Egypt, etc.

LOL.. 😂, evidently you don't know the subject very well.

The two christian narrative versions of Constantines
experience are dated later than the other pagan or
non-Christian recorded accounts ( that you in your
ignorance be unaware of.)

Belated Christian versions >

~ 337 AD Eusebius a christian bishop and polemicist
in Roman Caesarea. and self appointed biographer stated
Re: 'Caesarea’s De vita Constantini' (1.26-32),

"... whereupon Christ appeared in a dream and instructed
him to fashion himself a copy of the holy sign, which
would protect him against his enemies"

~ Lactantius a christian author, (some 20 yrs prior to Eusebius)
stated Re: 'De mortibus persecutorum' : (44.1-11)

"Constantine was directed in a dream to cause the heavenly
sign to be delineated on the shields of his soldiers, and so to
proceed to battle. He did as he had been commanded, and he
marked on their shields the letter Χ,"


Earlier dated Pagan versions. >

~ Panegyrici Latini VI - 'Vision of Constantius'
An oration concerning Constantines visit to
the Temple of Apollo - delivered before the
Emperor Constantine in Trier, ca. AD 310.
(prior to the battle)


.." Fortune herself so ordered this matter that the happy outcome
of your affairs prompted you to convey to the immortal gods
what you had vowed at the very spot where you had turned
aside toward the most beautiful temple in the whole world,
or rather, to the deity made manifest, as you saw. For you saw,
I believe, O Constantine, your Apollo, accompanied by Victory,
offering you laurel wreaths, each one of which carries a
portent of thirty years. For this is the number of human ages
which are owed to you without fail—beyond the old age of a Nestor.
And—now why do I say “I believe”?—you saw, and recognized
yourself in the likeness of him to whom the divine songs of
the bards had prophesied that rule over the whole world was due.
And this I think has now happened, since you are, O Emperor,
like he, youthful, joyful, a bringer of health and very handsome.
Rightly, therefore, have you honored those most venerable shrines
with such great treasures that they do not miss their old ones,
any longer. Now may all the temples be seen to beckon you to them,
and particularly our Apollo, whose boiling waters punish perjuries—
which ought to be especially hateful to you."


~ Panegyrici Latini IV, oration delivered in Rome
in 321 AD .by Nazarius:

".. a heavenly army bearing flaming arms and led by
none other than the deified Constantius I descended
from the sky to provide divine assistance."

Trying to rewrite History there buddy, Australian Light Horseman took control of Beersheba back in 1917 when they took back control of Palestine, nuthin to do with divine intervention or the chosen people. Im sure any inquiring mind would already be aware of these fact......

https://www.awm.gov.au/articles/blog/the-charge-of-the-4th-light-horse-brigade-at-beersheba

https://independentaustralia.net/australia/australia-display/remembering-the-battle-of-beersheba,13832

I think that the filter of faith sees miracles wherever extraordinary, but not supernatural, events happen.

This.

Leroy cant remember zero saying he would bend us over for Putin or that we could keep our dr or save 2500 a year.

Truth.

Truth. It gets his hemorrhoids flared up for sure. He and mouser cant drop this thread.

Did you get your feelers hurt because you think HE should have specifically mentioned the modern and current names of Russia and the US in the writing of the Bible before those nations were named by men given free will. Well i am so sorry HE didnt do things the way god dbt wanted HIM to do. Youre just so ignored and mistreated by HIM, arent you?

Well, boo hoo hoo.

clueless and delusional.

I care not what any man thinks, Jesus is Lord. Napoleon wrote about that.

1917 has no relevance with the war of which I described: The 1948 Arab-Israeli War.....the war that virtually every intelligence agency assessed to result in a loss for Israel, but was won against incredible odds and established the state of Israel in its current capacity.

You mean the war where God said in the Bible that Israel would be carried to safety as though by the wings of an eagle?

You mean the Israel God told in the Bible to make no treaties with its enemies who would turn on them and try to drive them into tbe sea.

Im glad you see things like that.

I think youre FOS and have scales on your eyes. HE agrees.

https://www.haaretz.com/who-s-throwing-who-into-the-sea-1.5202302

Just a little rational mind 1948 war history research
can dispell the RayF "miracle" claim... but that takes
the wind out of the sails of the theistic fantasy.

without critical foreign military material aid
provided to Israel, they were well and truelly
screwed.



Then Come back and own your blatant ignorance
that you have displayed on this thread.




that really deserves joke of the month prize.
You are prime example why folks should not
trust christians to inform them.

Wait a minute. In my state it is illegal to strike another person. I don't see any exceptions in the law that allows striking children.

You both project your own histrionic behaviour onto the opposition.

Neither of you can respond without trying to make it personal. That's the fact of it.

You, Jaggy boy, bravely in the security of your anonymity, accused me of being a liar, yet when asked repeatedly to give one example, one lie....nothing, you crawl under your bed for a while and hope it's forgotten.

Religion is based on faith. I don't have religion.

I read the whole thing. Australians did God's work, and helped open the way for the Jewish return.Good for Australia. If I moved to another country it would be Australia. Australia always seems to fight on the right side.

You have a seething anger with those who choose to believe in God. It absolutely eats you up that believers choose to believe in God. And you try to camouflage it by using verbal placebos such as ‘rational’ and ‘logical’...neither of which any of your positions have proven to be. Your responses are emotional, not intellectual. THAT’S the fact of it.

Note to naive Hastings -

I don't think Australians are generally keen
on goofy religous types, their pentacostal
PM has shown he 'pissed them off' with all
his wacko God and miracle talk claims.

Second note to naive Hastings -

You being x LE, be aware their is not anywhere
near the level of cop worship as in the USA.

Religion and public tax funded education need to be kept separate. This discussion is an indication of how much discord could be introduced into a classroom populated by competing and mutually exclusive belief systems. Separation of church and state institutions is one of the better ideas our supreme court ever came up with. I had the privilege (1960s) of attending 5th through 9th grade public school in a theocracy that ignored the court and shamelessly incorporated the Mormon LDS dogma into the day in a far less than subtle way. The place was the most Northwestern county in Utah and the population was 90+ percent LDS. Moral depravity is nothing new in this country, it is just more openly displayed. More than a century ago anarchists and labor rioted in the streets. Corporate goons gunned down striking labor. Three presidents were murdered in less than 40 years. Prostitution, drunkeness, child and domestic abuse were endemic. Taking prayer out of school didn't cause today's issues, entitlements without work played a big part.

Oh my goodness.......project much???

Possibly so, but what are you going to do until then?

Hastings, I don’t disagree with anything that you said in your last post. My kids went to public schools. I wanted them to be taught ‘how’ to think, not ‘what’ to think.

I am not keen on on goofy religious types either. I think you and the rest of the atheists here stand a better chance at salvation than some of the loudest and surest bible thumpers. As a disclaimer, I am not atheist and I still seek the truth knowing there are a lot of falsities and self serving out there. God bless.
As to law enforcement. It is a necessary evil but none the less very necessary as we will possibly soon see when it is overwhelmed.

Oh my goodness.......project much???

Boy...things were sure better when strangers beat our kids! Right men???


Ha! You guys are wild.

This is very difficult to argue with.

Why do you refer to me as being atheist?

Is that simply because I question and scrutinize
the christian narrative?

I apologize, I made an assumption. I also question.

That's delusional. Questioning assumptions and beliefs is a positive thing, a good thing. It should be standard practice.

I question, you moan You moan, wail and gnash your teeth. Each and every post a display of hysteria....all the while pretending that it's your opponent who is doing it.

Everyone is an atheist when it comes to other peoples version of God....Christians don't believe in Allah or Mohammad, Jews don't believe in Jesus, neither believe in the Hindu creative principle Brahman.....

You use those words to describe your position without actually proving your position to be any of those things. You have proven otherwise. Describing your position as logical and rational and questioning doesn’t somehow magically transform your
angry position into logical and rational and questioning thoughts or ideas. You’re not an “opponent”.

That's an infantile objection. To prove that you do question, you question. That's what I do. I have been questioning the assumptions of faith all along....which is why you go into denial, wailing and gnashing your teeth while making silly objections.




You still mistake questioning for anger. You are the angry one. You never address a point when it is raised, your manner of response is to go into attack mode while making wild accusations. You always engage with ad homs.

Let's do a test run; can you provide an argument for the validity of faith as a means to truth when faith based religions have contradicting versions of God or gods, ie, Brahman, Allah, Yahweh?

Can you do that....or are you going to say that it's an 'angry question?'

You deliver statements as though they are questions. But you’re not really looking for the answer. And you attack and show your disdain with words such as “infantile” and “delusional” and “silly”.

Have we ever seen a CF thread where Christians
don't go all wobbly and pear shaped in their responses?

When smoke and mirrors don't seem to work
they just double down on the same thinking
it will work... or they just run and hide from
pertinent questions regarding scripture and
the basis of their faith.

NO christian here seems willing or able to address
Jesus not meeting the O.T. messianic criteria to qualify
as the Messiah... (No big deal apparently)

Either the O..T. word of God is wrong or Christians
are wrong as to who Jesus was... Easy to see
why they avoid such enquiry like the plague.

No doubt many who identify as christian have
failed to show the necessary due diligence
before deciding what to believe... now its all
too hard or frightening to make such equiry. -
Far easier to just go on holding beliefs that
are convenient but highly questionable.
Its like a God gave them the precious capable gift
of a human brain and power to deduce, but they
prefer to act like sheep thinking there are prizes
for being ignorant.

Translation = Since it so clearly angers you that believers believe, you need to convince yourself that they’re ridiculous and deluded, and you need to alienate and dispose of them and their beliefs. That’s why you resort to extreme words like “delusional” and “infantile” and “silly”. You’ve raised no valid points. You try to distance yourself from your anger, but you fail. So you wrap yourself in protective labels like “logical” and “rational” and “questioning”.

I can see why I called you an idiot in a previous thread. I'm not angry by the way, just making comment on your demeanor. It's funny and sad at the same time.

Well consider that god bothering christians
are trained to denigrate other people's gods,
but get ALL bent out of shape if you question
theirs.

They have the belief that they have a divine right
to practice their life as an insecure snowflake
bigot and want others to join them.

[Question:]

A Supreme intelligence allknowing allcapable being
that created a whole universe in six quick easy steps.

why would such with all that wisdom, knowhow,
and foreknowing, then employ a scatterbrain
christian sheep army to do things for him and
make a diabolical mess of it in the process ?...
yet on the other hand he employed the craftiest
most capable creature to ensure the people he
loved would fall into sin and suffering ?

Add to that he created and appointed an archangel
that would betray him and cause a war on his heaven,
then his protége son employed a member in his
ministry that would betray him.

Humans with any reasonable amount of good sense
and wisdom would like the ability to avoid grief and
strife in their lives.. . Yet they look up to a god that
purposely manifests such.

Logic says that Go'd is modelled after fallible man
by fallible man himself...in his own image.

I use the words infantile, delusional and silly because that is exactly what your manner of response looks like. No matter what I point out, no matter what the question, you deny everything and call it angry. That is why it looks infantile.

Plus you ignored the question I asked you.

Here it is again:

Let's do a test run; can you provide an argument for the validity of faith as a means to truth when faith based religions have contradicting versions of God or gods, ie, Brahman, Allah, Yahweh?

Can you do that....or are you going to say that it's an 'angry question?'

And shortly before you resorted to name calling in that previous thread, you were boasting about what an upright, good, ethical, and virtuous person you were...and how you were that way ‘without’ God in your life. Your anger was a clear sign that you were out of your depth.Yes you are. You were ‘then’ too. Confident and secure people tend to remain calm in the conversation. You blew a gasket. Maybe you’re not quite as clued up as you thought you were.

We are wrong, antlers. Its just our imagination that things in this country have been going to hell in a handbasket and so many young people are brainless morons wanting everything given to them and becoming communists and our nation's cities are following Selma and Detroit in a path to ruin.

And now we appear to have a goofball brain weak POTUS who is stupid enough to evidently believe in a made up creator and believes we are endowed with certain inalienable rights that we deserve.

Still avoiding questions, I see.

RayF bombed out of this thread coz he dislayed
he doesn't know what he's talking about.

One may as well quote that crackers fool jX
for the same effect ... 😂

What exactly am I avoiding? Ray made claims regarding bible prophesy, but studiously ignored numerous failed prophesies, Tyre, Egypt, etc.

IIRC, Antlers doesn't buy Ringmans or your own
literal take on the 6 days of creation in Genesis.

Essentially he qualifies as a heretic coz he dares
to use his educated rational mind and good science...👍

I think that some folks get their information from creationist sites, AiG, etc....some of these sites even warn about using failed arguments.

Where there's sober brains there's hope,
getting drugged out and addicted to ancient
ambiguous mythology creates tunnel vision
ignorance and confusion.

Looks like Antler's out of the debate too - can only make illogical, presumptuous retorts, but that's all he's been doing now for some time.

Both Antlers and Jag throw in good commentary as evidence of the angry, illogical, bigoted believer.

Yep....all the while pretending it's the other poster who is angry and belligerent.

You are still unable to make any headway at all with your position. So not only do you resort to name calling, you can’t even post without the vitriol that has characterized you.

That’s not true at all. I try to avoid 2 things: Arguing about God and becoming rude or insolent from the refuge of a keyboard. I try my best to interact with people as if they were standing in front of me.

I shared my observations and opinion on this topic. DBT, mauser and you disagreed. What possible
good would come from my attempting to force or trick you into believing God’s word or actions?

2 Timothy (2:23-24) says “Don’t have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful.”

I try, Starman. I try.

Well, that makes one of you.

The others spend their time trying to destroy something that they think doesnt exist. Rather telling, like trying to make a treatment for a condition one says doesnt exist.

It's 8:30 AM here. LOL, are you guys still at it? LOL!
FUNNY THING IS, yesterday I started studying John 5 in my devotions and it's one of those chapters that an active participant in the thread encouraged me to go back and read again. It has extra special significance, but we all know that God couldn't do that. Its just a coincidence. 😉

I woke up at 4 and had to drain the radiator. I saw dbt and some of his buds still fighting their demons and our over acting imaginations about a Holy Ghost and replied. I guess they stayed up all night swatting at flies in the dark when they dont even fly. Must be demon possessed or fighting a guilty conscience.

The fulfillment of lots of monumentous occurrences in Bible prophecy are called coincidences by liars who cant see or stand the truth.

Oh man! You have more motivation than me when I can't sleep. The last thing I'm thinking about is working on my car when staring at the ceiling at 4AM. 😄
Have a blessed day!

Matthew (5:10-12)

“Blessed are those who have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. “Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great; for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.“

Oh my.......project much???Another ‘attack’ word from you. shocker

New member here, should probably stay out of it. Can't resist to put my 2 cents in. To me Jesus is 100% everything true, & pure, & perfect. He changed me forever 10 yrs ago. Just for the sake of debate let's say God is 50/50 chance. Like flipping a coin ok. If I'm right about Jesus I've gained everything. If I'm wrong I'll just die, turn into dirt & lose nothing. If an atheist is wrong they've lost everything even their own soul. They've also gained eternal hell for denying Jesus. I think I'm right. Unbelievers what do you have to lose by having faith in Jesus. If one is skeptical then just make an effort to read the Bible, and dare God to reveal himself. As far as school goes it God is not welcome then there is a void created. Something fills every void & every manner of evil has filled the void/ vacuum we've kicked God out of. Just my opinion, it's still a free country for now. Godbless

Well said, jive.

Now to see some prophecy fulfilled.

The root of Jesse that bore fruit was JESUS.

https://en.shalomfromg-d.net/2017/03/28/isaiah-the-re-gathering-of-jews-to-israel/

Amen, JiveT. I'm in your camp. Praying for those who wish to be wise and intellectual, but really are "lost". We will all die, we will all find out at that time if there is anything to this God/Jesus thing or not.

Some saying Isaiah's prophecy will be seen to be proven wrong.

https://en.shalomfromg-d.net/2017/04/17/the-hebrew-prophet-vs-the-jewish-skeptic-part-1/

Now, how did Ezekiel accurately predict the Jews getting their homeland in EXACTLY 1948 from thousands of years before? Read on to see. Coincidence? You be the judge.

https://en.shalomfromg-d.net/2017/05/17/the-hebrew-prophet-vs-jewish-skeptic-pt-2/

It’s OK with me for atheists to be atheists. But it’s ‘not’ OK with some of them for believers to be believers. There’s no reciprocity on their part. It’s not good enough for them to not be believers themselves...they don’t want other’s to be believers either. They get SO bothered that believers ‘are’ believers. They can’t stand it. And instead of being honest and admitting that real and clear truth of the matter, they put on the protective camouflage of “questioning assumptions and beliefs” when they aren’t the least bit interested in looking for the answer.

America began as a Judeo Christian country with 98% being Protestant-Christian, less than 2% Catholic, and less than 1% Jewish. Every colony was founded by Christian denominations.

Rhode Island was founded by Baptists (who were ironically the most liberal); Delaware and New Jersey by Swedish Lutherans; Penn. by Quakers; Mass. by Puritans; Maryland by Catholics; NY by Dutch Reformers; Conn, NH, and Vermont by Congregationalists, and Virginia by Anglicans, etc.

Nine states even required their office holders to be Protestant-Christians (1776-1790s). We’ve gone from freedom of religion under state control to freedom FROM religion under federal control. Now, rights are taken away from the states with the 14th Amendment, and religion is under the federal gov.

The Judeo Christian values that are slipping away gave our country internal morals that required less laws. Now the reverse is happening, and each new law takes away more freedom. Turning away from God, apathy, declining morals, and more gov. control has America sliding down a dangerously slippery slope. Our country must turn back to God.

“Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord, the people whom He has chosen as His inheritance.”
Psalms 32:12

Christians are proud bigots but like
to claim victim status.... Tff.

Can you tell us who wrote the (4) gospels.

Native Indians signed agreements that were dishonored
by underhanded christians,
the 'good' Christians didn't mind so much
coz the Gov was giving them the lands
Indians were forced off.

When early bible thumping colonists were starving
to death, it wasnt the hand of a Judeo christian God
from the clouds that saved them. But the care and
generosity of those' heathen' Indians that put food
in their mouths.

and let's face it Christianity went from being
a middle eastern cult of little significance
until it hitched a ride with the Power and reach
of an Empire becoming a tyrannical state religion.

+1

It's all so simple. John 3:16

Regarding whats real, honest and truthful
#1 top of the list
Jesus doesn't meet the O.T. messianic criteria.
but instead of camouflage, believers just bury
their heads in the sand.

All the bluff, denial, deflection, smoke and mirrors
& whatever other "piss everywhere but in the bowl"
approach doesn't change that Biblical fact and truth.

Christians being snookered by their own Bible.
- that must be hard to take.

If you aren’t the litmus test for stupidity. You will argue to the death, denying the existence of God. Your propaganda is on the verge of what the DNC uses as a model for not getting anything accomplished.

Where have I argued the case for the non-existence
of a Supreme Being.?




The Old Testment is my word of God
source,.. is that considered propaganda?

Sadly you'll never get a response to this - it's an ugly truth that Christians don't want to know about, and is part of the ongoing deceit that goes along with their beliefs.

And Antlers will come alone and make a swipe at your character, just because you stated a fact that he is threatened by - it's easier than addressing the issue.

We've had two thousand years of convenient
gloss over BS and perpetuated mythology,
dont expect Christianty to give up on that
approach anytime soon... it's an ingrained
habitual practice.

Whatever skerrick of truth may exist about
a Jesus is buried and smothered so deep
in brainwashing theistic marketing junk.

Mankind has for several millenia built up
fantasies to make him feel safe and secure.
Man's forefathers were satisfied to have
deities, in the simple more tangible form
Sun, Earth, Wind, Fire, Water, etc.. Then
sales merchant God botherers came along
telling them they need something different.

I guess you've been getting away with it! Maybe God is giving you an opportunity to change

You are not trying to trick....you are just mistaken about the nature of bible prophesy. Bible prophesy takes a lot of creative interpretation, and even then there are clear examples of failed prophesy. If it was Divine Revelation, there should be no errors or failures.

You have no rational argument to offer?

You cannot answer a simple question?


Here it is again:
Can you provide an argument for the validity of faith as a means to truth when faith based religions have contradicting versions of God or gods, ie, Brahman, Allah, Yahweh?

Can you do that....or are you going to say that it's an 'angry question?

The Bible is the living word, full of prophecy and divine revelation (much of which has been fulfilled and much much much MUCH more to come). Prophecies written thousands of years ago have come true.

It was prophetized in Isaiah 11:11-12 and Ezekiel 36:24-28 that Israel would become a nation again. It happened in 1948.

Micah 5:2 said Jesus would be born in Bethlehem. Zechariah 9:9 said Jesus would ride a donkey into Jerusalem.

Isaiah 53 said Jesus would die for our sins. Daniel 9:25-27 said Jesus would come before the destruction of the temple in 70 AD. Isaiah 49:6 said Jesus would be a light to the gentiles. Isaiah 53:3 said Jesus would be born, rejected, and pay for all our sins.

Isaiah was written between 739 and 681 BC, so God told Isaiah hundreds of years before Jesus was born that Jesus would be born.

There were over 500 eyewitnesses to the resurrection of Jesus. Both Jewish and Roman historians mentioned Jesus and verified many parts of the New Testament.

Jesus fulfilled the prophecies in the Hebrew scripture. Everything the Bible says has happened and will happen (read Revelation) and is the living, eternal Word of God.

Jesus will return again!! John 14:3

For a start, we don't have 500 independent eyewitness accounts of the life and death of Jesus....only the words in the gospels, the earliest of which was penned decades after the described events, with copying by the others. Nor does Jesus meet the OT definition of their prophesied Messiah.

Sheesh, dbt. The Good News has been travelling over the earth for over 2000 years and satans men in greater numbers than you and your fire cohorts have not been able to squelch the Truth with murder and mayhem yet satan drives you to not give up the useless fight that any idiot could logically see will never succeed in its devilish desire.

Like a dog you get nothing for howling at the siren of the ambulance other than the satisfaction of your voice and are too stupid to have the sense to know your scratching and howling are not heeded and are in vain with those whose eyes and ears see and hear.

Like a moth trying to put out a flame. Unreal.

No more than anyone can convince you that the sunrises and sunsets youve seen are unreal can you can convince us the Son we've seen is unreal.

Even if you were to be right, your antics are ineffective.

Me thinks you dont give a dayom about us believers, but that your misery wants company.

You are the one who doesnt want to go into your unkown alone.

Dont worry about me, you will have plenty of company.

You really are dense. Try to grasp this concept of truth: Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Even if you try to memorise that, you will have forgotten it by tomorrow.

It's not about me. It's about history. History tells us that the earliest Gospel, Mark, was most probably written four decades after the described events, that the authorship of the gospels has not been established, that there was copying, that the primary source of information about Jesus comes from the gospels, that Paul did not know Jesus the man, that he was not aware of some of the information about Jesus found in the later gospels, etc.

I am not making this up. This is what the research tells us.

We don't even have 500 names, no 500 written depositions..and no chance of witness examination.

Christians ridecule Bigfoot believers and living eyewitnesses, but easily bruise if you question
2000 yr old hand me down extraordinary tales
recorded by unknown authors.

One can't expect much more from those that
willing downgraded their human brain to the
level of a cloned sheep's brain.



Your God is a trickster by proxy and it brought
pain and misery on mankind.

Its not like Adam stumbled along and made
a mistake by chance, your God set him up.

It's quite clear who is dense. Just look in the mirror. How many times does it need repeating that absence of evidence where evidence should be found is in fact evidence for absence.

Why do you persistently leave out the critical bit? Once again; absence of evidence where evidence should be found - absence of evidence where evidence should be found - absence of evidence where evidence should be found - absence of evidence where evidence should be found is evidence for absence......do you get it?

You remember parking your car in the garage, but upon looking in the garage, there is no car. The absence of evidence for the presence of a car in your garage is evidence of absence.....there is no car in your garage.

Well there's another problem. Neither Daniel or Isaiah mention 'Jesus' - nor does Jesus meet the criteria for the Messiah as described in the OT....the very reason why Judaism rejects Jesus as their prophesied Messiah. The Jews still wait for the coming of their prophesied Messiah

2 Peter (3:16)

“........There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.”

Jesus Himself said that He WAS the Messiah. I believe HIM. The Samaritan woman said, “I know that Messiah (called Christ) is coming. When He comes, He will explain everything to us.” Jesus responded to her, “I who speak to you am He.”
Jesus predicted His own death and resurrection, and pulled it off...! I’m gonna go with what HE says.

Anyone who doesnt agree this country has taken a heck of a downturn since God was kicked out of our schools is deaf and dumb or a liar.
Im talking from kids on drugs to supporting socialism to unwed, teenage pregancy to anti 1 and 2 A.
If it were not a successful tool to help destroy a country, the communist playbook wouldnt employ it and the communists wouldnt be anti Christian.

I'll try it this way.

Glad that you guys are getting back on topic.

Wabigoon,

Great verse!

We should ALL ask ourselves, who is responsible for training up our children in the way they should go?
Here's a brief example that represents the past generation of nearly 50 years.

Unfaithful marriages...

Unfaithful parenting...

Parents turn children over to the state run skuul system.

Children conform to the image of their state rather than their Creator Jesus Christ.

Repeat.....

Karl Marx was a reprobate that hated God before he left the surface of this planet for a permanent vacation in a VERY WARM climate. Not only schools, but many churches have followed suit in his philosophies. How many pastors and denominations are preaching the small amount of truth found in this post?


"As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving. Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ."
Colossians 2:6-8

From the beginning of the state run educational system, it was set up according to the Prussian model for the purpose of loyalty and obedience to the Godless state. Most of what is taught in socialist studies, biology, etc., to your children is against God's revealed truth. The subjects are taught mostly by strangers who care less about your values than strangers on a forum.
The children's peers become their friends, who influence them with the same evils that their peers and parents believe and are deceived by.

The parents have chosen the state as their king, and their god when Jesus Christ the Almighty King was our God.

The early Christians met in the catacombs in secret, in fear for their lives.

In spite of all the precutation, the Faith grew. We have it so easy.

Keep your eye on the Prize.

Yep. It wont be long now. Jesus said He'd be back in 2000 years and we know approximately when He was birthed on earth as we know when King Herrod was in office.

It ought to be between now and 2028 if He was referring as to when He came to earth first.

I agree. Although alleged persecution among some Christians nowadays in this country seems to have an allure to it. In other parts of the world, Christians ‘do’ face real persecution. In North Korea and many Muslim-governed countries, Christians risk imprisonment and death for their faith. But for most of this country’s history, Christians haven’t been persecuted...at least not in comparison to early believers, or even what Christians in other parts of the world face today.
That’s not to say there aren’t incidents of discrimination and even hatred towards Christianity nowadays in the United States. But Christians are pretty well-protected and more often accommodated here in America nowadays than actively harmed.

Jaguartx where are you getting this timeline for Christ's return? I don't comprehend everything, but I'm pretty well read when it comes to the Bible. Just last night is was reading in Luke & Jesus said he'd come in an hour you'd think not.

For, it's not important when He returns. HE LIVES! Now!

Exactly Wabigoon, no worries.

This will irritate some but nobody kicked God out of school, he was never there. Had he been his follower's if true believer's, would not have allowed that to happen. Sad that there are so many true believer's but so many more border line believer's. I am not a believer but I know a lot of people that are. And those people are incensed it has happened but they are a minority. Just because someone claims to be a Christian does not mean they are! And when push came to shove, they were no where to be found or were sitting home babbling about how bad it was and did nothing to stop it except pray to a God that never did it in the first place, he had you do it!

Something I do believe is this country was created on the idea of God. I do believe that those people believing in it and living their lives that way made this country what it was. I say was because today we are radically changing and most Christians are sitting around saying pray for a difference from God! That does not work! I watched the movie about Noah taking the Jew's away from whoever those people were, They came to a place where these bad people were going to kill them and they wanted God to come and save them. He didn't. Instead they were left to fight for themselves. But then when it was over, they gave all credit to God rather than themselves. I suspect it was their belief that help was coming that kept them going and not a thing wrong with that but, God does not come down and fix anything, rather if he is there he leaves it for you to decide what course to take and sit back and do nothing is not one of them That get's you killed!

God does whatever He wants to.

I think a lotta people, ‘maybe’ like jaguartx for example, are just ready for something other than what this life has become. It is hard. Maybe harder nowadays, and in different ways, than it has been in the past.
For so many people, the way we live...the way life is nowadays...isn’t suitable for the soul to be happy anymore. Jesus is with those who follow Him. His followers need not fear anything or anyone...because they have been invited to submit themselves and surrender their fears to a God who loves them, who is with them, who’s not surprised by anything that’s happening to them, and will walk with them through it.

Well then, I guess he didn't want to be in school!

He leaves that up to us, we are free moral agents.

Now that is pretty good! I think an old saying I recall was, "God help's those that help's themselves". Ya want him back in school? Put him there!

Believer or not, I’m glad you spoke up. Your opinion and thoughts on this matter seem honest and non-agenda driven. If God is omnipresent, then He’s everywhere...even schools. It might be a situation where He is simply given no credence there anymore.

No credence in schools, and way to many other places

I wouldnt want to be in that now heathen place either.

With all due respect to Wabi, i think he may be forgetting God made a decision to let us have free will, in fact, kind of like Ben Franklin saying, I give you a Republic, if you can keep it.

HE gave us a great and once free country. HE never said we could keep it if we turned away from and rejected HIM and turned to follow Satan. Rather logical if one thinks about it.

Yes He did. I believe it was of utmost importance to God from the time of creation that humans have free will. I don’t think He wants robots, and I don’t think He wants slaves. I think He wants friends and companionship, and a bond of mutual affection.

And many blame HIM for giving us free will, evidently preferring to having been controlled like a mans dog or cow pony. Some wiil say free like a wolf or eagle and totally free of sin without the chance for good news. Too bad for them, they were created in HIS image, by Him, in HIS image and with a spirit.

The one good thing that came about from the Wuhan cold is that governments relinquished a little bit of their authority over the breeders' offspring. Now its time for good Christian parents to quit acting as breeders that provide HUMAN RESOURCES to the corporate governing slave masters. Now it's time for Christian parents and you grandparents to unify UNDER Christ (NOT false diety of state) and take back authority over your children!
Where in God's Holy Word does He say that wicked unbelievers are supposed to raise your children for you?
The Head of the man is CHRIST.
The head of the children are their fathers.
The head of the women are their own husbands.

Go back and read that previous post again my friends, then watch the video and obey our Lord. This is the ONLY SOLUTION THAT GOD PROVIDES. 👍

Here's the Lord's only solution for the topic of this thread and discussion.

Most of us who have kids, had them because we ‘wanted’ some children to love. And to know that all of us were created because God ‘wanted’ some children to love...well, it ‘is’ pretty overwhelming when ya’ think about it.

Danny Thomas, "You have children so they can marry someone that is not half good enough for them. So they can give you grandchildren that are twice as good as anyone else's".

We know about when Jesus was born. He said to Him a day is as is a thousand years to us. Pretty sure Jesus said He would be back in 2 days, ergo 2000 years.

HE has a 7 day calendar, 7000 years.

There was 6 days equals 6000 years. 2000 years from Adam to Abraham and 2000 more from Abraham to Christ. By scripture its about 2000 years from JESUS until now, by the dates ofvKing Herrods rule.

He will rule here a thoudand years after He (Christ) returns, Satan and his minions will be in chains in the dungeon for the mellinium. This would be the time of Christ (we are now in the age or time of Man). After the Age of Christ is the Time or Age of GOD, which is after the White Throne Judgment when the lost are cast into the sea of fire.

Believers will have the Judgment of Christ where they will face their sins but thier names will be in the Book of Life.

Keep in mind, this is from my best study of scripture and i am a sinner and no theologian.

HE said HE doenst know the hour or day of HIS return but said you can look around and see as you can tell when spring approaches.

Look what other predictions about the later days that have come to pass.

PS. Even the most studied theologians of the same religious persuasions disagree on the rapture and other aspects of the Bible.

Did the authors actually see and hear a Jesus
say such thing?.. veracity of such claims are
open to legitimate question.

If folks believe in cadavers coming to life
and Jesus flying into the clouds. then they
should buy modern day accounts of alien
👾 abduction.



Accounts of such prediction were recorded,
embellished? or straight out fabricated?..
long after any such alleged events.

Not a bad answer. Sounds like a logical conclusion. I reckon I'll leave it up to God.
Ever notice how numbers work out in scripture. 14 generations from Abraham to David. 14 from David to captivity in Babylon, & 14 from Babylon to Christ. Adds up to 42. Same amount of months in the great tribulation.

Jive, Some say this: Wiki

Using these methods, most scholars assume a date of birth between 6 and 4 BC, and that Jesus' preaching began around AD 27–29 and lasted one to three years. They calculate the death of Jesus as having taken place between AD 30 and 36.

Another take.

https://bible.org/question/how-old-was-jesus-when-he-was-crucified

Just ridiculous COINCIDENCES, man. The Bible is full of them.

Those sheep herders just coincidently put all those coincidences in it to make the unbelievers say it was just a coincidence over and over.

Since you rely on scripture so much and take
it as your 'truth'

Best you check out the O. T. messianic criiteris
which the Christian Jesus fails to comply with.

but no Christian here will touch it with a
10 foot barge pole, even though it's an OT
infallible Biblical word of God prophesy.

The OT word of God vs the christian fabrication
I wonder who wins that one.

Jive, the latest prophetic time clock mentioned in the Bible about Christs return is measured from the time Israel regained its homeland and became a nation in 1948.

Matthew 24: 32-35 ...."this generation will not pass away until all these things take place...", meaning the generstion of that time or ? Date. Meaning within a generation of that time. A generation being 70-80 years.

Joel 3:1-2 says iirc the generation when Israel is gathered back into her homeland.

Psalm 90:10 A generation is 70-80 years .....

So, say 80 years added to 1948 gives us to 2028.

Now, if we are raptured away when He comes down in the clouds and if that is 7 years before the end of the tribulation....the

See, when HE comes down in tbe clouds and raptures us up with Him and then the tribulation, then HE didnt return to earth. He would not return until 7 or 3.5 years later of tribulation.

If as many believe, believers are raptured away with Him taking His away from the Wrath of the tribulation as He did Lotts family, then He would return after the rapture and the mellinium would commence.

If thats the case, believers would be taken away 7 or 3.5 years before 2028.

This is speculation from scripture, of course.

I wasn't twisting anything. Neither Daniel or Isaiah mention Jesus, and there is a list of reasons why Judaism rejects Jesus as the prophesied Messiah. You can check this for yourself.

Jesus himself wrote nothing. Everything we are told about Jesus comes from anonymous authors writing long after the described events.

Created as flawed creatures who have to survive in a hard world....what could possibly go wrong?

I remember threescore and ten or fourscore from psalm 90. I believe we have the same foundation Jag, but I'll not try predicting anything concerning God's time table. I do remember about 10 yrs back a man predicted the end. It wasn't the first time he had made such predictions that didn't come to pass. Can't recall his name. I do recall shortly after his last failed prediction he had a stroke that left him unable to talk. Could be he reaped what he sowed. Only God knows.

Me too.

The Jewish leaders didn’t like Jesus. They didn’t like His interpretation of the Law, and they didn’t like His rebuking of them. He was like, ‘Hey, you guy’s are into all of the rituals and all of the rules, but you’re leaving out some of the weightier things like love and compassion and grace. Who gives a flip if you have clean cups and clean hands...? What about having a clean heart...? THAT needs to be clean...!’ They didn’t like being told these things. They didn’t like these things being pointed out to them.
ALL of Jesus’ Apostles were Jews. They were raised on the Hebrew Bible, the Mosaic Laws, and the Messianic prophecies. Their lives revolved around these things. They spent 3 years with Jesus. They lived with Him, they learned from Him, they heard the things He said and they saw the things He did, and they saw how He treated others...and they felt His love for them, and they saw His love for others. THEY, to the man, ALL of them Jews, accepted Jesus as the Messiah. And Paul was a Jew, “chief among Pharisees”; he was a scholar of the Hebrew Bible, the Mosaic Laws, and the Messianic prophesies. He was expert at all of it. He even persecuted Christians. Then, he met the risen Jesus. And he, unequivocally, accepted Jesus as the Messiah. ALL of these Jewish men ‘experienced’ Jesus, and then ALL of them accepted Jesus as the Messiah...their consciences were no longer obligated to the Jewish religious authorities and their dictates, or to the legalistic descriptions, and expectations of, the Messiah in the Hebrew Bible.

https://youtu.be/dZgLMnRqJfQ

This topic keeps coming up so here's a link to a documentary called,
Matching to Zion.

It has nothing to do what anyone likes or dislikes, believes or disbelieves. The OT itself sets the criteria for the prophesied Messiah....criteria that Jesus does not meet. You can check this for yourself.

I like Jesus!

The Jesus I know is NOT bound by the covers of a book. Many people attack the Christian faith ‘by’ attacking the Bible (using Old Covenant Messianic prophecies, for example). The Bible is NOT the foundation of the Christian faith, and the Hebrew Bible especially is NOT the foundation of the Christian faith. The faith of Christianity is tethered to the event of Jesus’ resurrection rather than to anything in the Hebrew Bible, for example. The Bible did not create Christianity. The Bible did not birth Jesus’ Church. The Christian faith is anchored to the event (the Resurrection) that sparked the movement (the Church) that brought us the Bible. Christianity began on Easter morning with an empty tomb and a risen Jesus. Those first century Jewish Christians didn’t have their lives changed by something that they read. The Apostles didn’t become emboldened and stand up to the very power structure that had Jesus crucified because of something that they read. And Saul, who was the Pharisee of Pharisees, who was expert at the Law and the Prophets, and the Messianic prophecies...such that his entire life was centered on it...didn’t become the Apostle Paul due to something that he read. All of these people’s lives were changed because of something that they saw.

PTL I'm glad I'm not dumb as Dumb Butt T.

JESUS CHRIST, THE SON, THE SUPERSTAR.

Over, and Over, the solution to All troubles, is Jesus Christ The LORD!

"I believe, help my unbelief:

Questioning is not attacking. Something that is true and factual should stand any sort of questioning.

We only have the gospels as a source for information about Jesus.

Not if he doesn't exist.

Then there is not god to do anything.

Maybe some atheists are not as devoted to their beliefs...or their lack of beliefs...as they’d like to think they are, since they spend ‘so’ much time and effort and emotional energy “questioning” something that they don’t even believe in...!

The word of God for the people of God.

Thanks be to God!

Yep, but HE does exist. He didnt always, but after i asked, HE lives in my heart.

Im sorry to say, I know who lives in yours.

Happy trails good folks, "Pastor Wabigoon" needs to sleep.

You aren't dumb. You have read the Bible and made a valid decision IMHO. Some have come to different conclusions. They have choices that we disagree with. It seems like because of that, we have automatically become their enemies. That's not a big deal if they insist on seeing us that way.

What is a big deal is when they say no to Him so much that eventually He says NO to them. That's when they become unable to be convinced.

Me also. But there are things in "mainstream" Christianity that I believe went off down a swamp road and can't find its way back to Jesus. Jesus among other things was a prophet and a rabbi. If his birth was virgin why do we trace his lineage through Joseph? If he and John the Baptist taught salvation through repentance and good works and clearly endorsed the law and the old testament how can Paul come along and say "Jesus sent me to straighten things out that he forgot to say" If there were 27 or 28 generations between King David and Yeshua (Jesus) he would have 60 + million grand fathers in David's generation. Of course we know the population was small and lots of inbreeding took place. So everyone in Israel was of the seed of David and every other fertile child producing man of David's generation. I don't see any definite endorsement of the rapture in scripture without the odious Paul/Saul. And I don't see any reason to worship a trinity or to believe that Yeshau-Jesus is God. Heck, he was always speaking of God and praying to him. But I believe Yeshua/Jesus was exactly who he claimed to be and since my heart is in A-fib tonight maybe I can ask him myself.

Great post Don.
I've spent most of my life in the bible belt and you couldn't hit the head on this one more squarely.
Even now, I have great friends who are believers that do nothing other than complain about the state of affairs. Talking about it to your church family or posting on Facebook does nothing to further a cause. You can't bitch and moan your way out of a problem. Now it seems it seems to be pointing the finger everywhere but at the real problem. I think there's a saying about actions speaking louder than words.

After losing the faith, it all makes sense why christians are on their own and he always seems to be a no show.

And they think everyone converting to their belief is going to make the world a better place. There's thousands of years of evidence to the contrary. And that's being mild giving them some slack that they may be naïve but it's really a case of bigotry and deceit - persisting with a lie to achieve the control that they want.

Judge not lest ye be judged. A kind answer from you along with friendly encouragement might cause a person to look at you and say I want to look into what he's got. A non believer is easier to bring on board than a self righteous self satisfied hypocrite. Sir: I do believe you seek the truth and think you've found it, but I have many "Christian" friends and acquaintances that are very sincere but hold differing beliefs on some pretty important points. I have adopted a policy of paying close attention to Jesus' teachings and look hard for evidence that somebody twisted his words or inserted their own. Anyone paying the least attention to church history should realize Jesus' teachings have been badly perverted. His message managed to survive despite all this. When you find something incongruous with Jesus just ditch it and move on. That culling out the chaff had to start early shortly after Jesus was murdered. Paul himself laments that all in Asia turned against him. Jesus commended Ephesus (Asia) for outing the false apostles (Paul?)spreading lies. James had to write and straighten out the faith vs works issue. I don't have any idea when the Lord will put an end to this evil society but the plagues and wars and genocides have been going on for centuries. I will say that man has now come up with some really super weapons and never has a weapon system not been used. And the Jewish miracle of the return to Israel comes to mind. Think about it. Some of our most cherished notions learned and believed and our lives invested in may ought be scrutinized a bit. God bless

Rather than beliefs, the name of the game is sorting fact from fiction....that which can stand all questioning and remain true regardless of our beliefs.

Then again, since they ‘do’ spend so much time and effort and emotional energy on a subject that they don’t even believe in (God in this case), maybe they ‘are’ just attacks...under the false pretenses of “questioning” and “sorting fact from fiction.”

It's human nature to try and understand how things work - that's why people invented religion, but it's nothing more than what people have collectively made up. It's weird to see people still believe and religion and is dangerous because of the bigotry, violence, misappropriation of blame and hatred that it creates. It's astounding that believers can't answer simple logical questions that they should not otherwise be afraid of answering and become so threatened by it.

But like they say, science doesn't know everything, religion doesn't know anything.

Uhhm...no. It's just a matter of questioning beliefs. Everyone should do it, Muslims, Christians, Jews, Politicians.....

Good point DBT, God surely wouldn't mind, and the world would have been spared a lot of misery if folks would have just said "wait a minute, Jesus would never support this".

"I believe, help my unbelief".

Huh?

I think that’s a pretty poignant verse there Wabi. A lotta believers share that sentiment. Submitting what faith we ‘do’ have, to God, alongside our doubts. He wants all of what we ‘do’ have. And He’ll help strengthen what we don’t have.

Hastings, I heard that somewhere. [img]https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1...22x11_white_wash_grande.png?v=1463376984[/img]

Who is this THEY you refer to? Its not the they I listen to, but you have your fun.

It just strikes me that those made in His image may have a reason for contemplating things like where we are from and where we are going and going go the moon and whay is our reason for being which creatures like dogs and cats dont do.

I believe. In the old book and in John the Baptist and Jesus. My unbelief only applies when there seems to be an obvious omission or an editing in favor of the powers that held title to "Christianity" for a thousand years. Also when an assumed apostle writes things that do not jive with Jesus' teachings and advises slaves to obey their masters and also stated that the secular government was to be obeyed as an agent of God. Religion has always been used to preserve the social strata so it is not surprising that Jesus was hijacked for that very purpose. But praise the Lord, enough of his teaching survived that will allow an open mind to weed out the BS that was inserted.

The "unbelief", comes in when one has doubts about any part of Faith. That's how I understand it.

Hey, at least we get to have Bibles, and read em’ for ourselves, and interpret what they say for ourselves. Before the Protestant Reformation, the Church didn’t allow the common man to have Bibles, and having one was punishable by death. The Bible was ‘interpreted to’ the common man by those in power. There are lots of different opinions among all believers. There are different theological beliefs, and different interpretations of what the Bible says among all believers. We have the personal freedom to have varying interpretations on theological issues. When ya’ get right down to it, we are all individual denominations unto ourselves. But the Spirit of God dwells in ‘all’ believers.

Yep. Some churches now days dont remotely follow what the Bible HE gave as our book of instruction says.

Conviction or lack of conviction is a process that begins with the presentation of a body of information, in this case the bible....but it can be anything, science, Politics, ideology....

i do not read music well. I was not good playing piano, nor trumpet. I fiddled with a fiddle when I was 37.

I do not have anywhere perfect pitch. I do however know when a bell rings true. The Message of Lord God Jesus ring so true.

Politicians....especially the Marxist one's.....

Any part?

Young earth?

A literal Garden of Eden?

How about a literal The Firmament?

The Modern Flat Earth movement is motivated by such Christians who subscribe to the above statement.

Wabi, have you decided to become a Flat Earther because it's supported by scripture?

Nice picture, but it's not evidence for the truth of the proposition.

Thomas, you are a good sort, you argue without being nasty.
It is one of my prayers that you accept The Lord Jesus.

Wabi, the LORD gave me a revelation today. I had thought for a few years there would be animals in Heaven. HE revealed that truth to me today. It is not told in this video, but if one can add 2 and 2 from the sctiptures below....

It's hard to be nasty when have a discussion with good people.

Politicians are the worst.

Let's lighten up a bit.

We have had Real Progress after kicking God out and starting teaching all about drugs and how to get knocked up and Jane has two daddys and jack has 2 mommies and transvestites and corksuckers were just born that way and are great Americans and are A OK.

"I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue."

May God Bless the Puritans that came here to Worship as they wished to. We are so soft.

When was the last time you were eaten by a lion?

People in Dark Ages believed in God.

Food for thought - religion may be a contributing cause for some crime. Don't know anything about the site or validity of the claims but here you go:

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1362480612463114


A lot of people have been killed thank's to religious beliefs.

And i dont know of any unbeliever drs who went to treat poor patients from out of the states in free clinics.

Can you imagine poor people in Mexico and other countries walking for 3 days and sleeping on the road to get an American dr to treat or operate on them.

There's a whole list of secular charitable organizations, including Doctors without borders.

Christians are like communists in that
they are not permitted to question their
doctrine... same with any crazed cult.

Without the power of the Roman state
Christianity would just be a shriveled up
ancient Middle Eastern cult, one of many
of the time.

Constantine being the shrewd Roman,
hedged his bets by building pagan temples
and christian churches at the same time.
if you get the dummies following one carrot
it easier to centralize and consolidate power
over the people, much like Egypt monotheist
Akhenaten and Hebrew mono-theists did prior...
and Charlemagne and the Viking Nordic/ Kings
did later... History shows it was for their own
selfish and greedy enrichment.

The Old Testament shows the Christian narrative
is a dud tale. and Christianity shows how gullible
weak and easily led humans are.