Originally Posted by curdog4570
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Originally Posted by eyeball
What ever you say. Evidence is for the physical, not the metaphysical. smile


So you admit you have no evidence, and therefore no reasonable basis to believe what you believe?


You inhabit a creation. Do you have evidence that something [creation] can come from nothing?

You are surrounded by the "effect", but deny a "cause".

If you admit to the possibility of a "first cause", what evidence do you have that the "cause" ceased to exist at the time of creation?

Logic demands that you admit to a cause. What "logic" demands that the cause cares not for ITS creation?


Thanks for the bump my friend. I hope this Sunday morning doesn't' find you under a foot of fresh snow.

You've attempted to do a couple things above, so lets walk through them.

You've essentially moved on to a conversational version of the "Cosmological Argument". You begin by stating "You inhabit a creation". What I know is that I live in a Universe. To say it is a "creation" is a fallacy of presupposition, that presupposes a creator that has not been established by evidence.

Next you ask if I have any evidence this Universe came from nothing. Here, you are attempting to shift the burden of proof. If Science is unable to prove a specific model for the creation of the Universe, it gets you no close to your proposition that "God did it". Regardless, we do have evidence, and at this moment the model it seems to best support is the Lawrence Krauss model of "A Universe from Nothing".

Next you ask about the first cause, which has it's own problems. Your assumption that the infinite regress of cause and effect ends with your God is just a case of "special pleading". One argument for the cosmological argument is that the universe is too complex to create itself. However intelligence is extremely complex, and an intelligence that can create the universe, micromanage it, all the lives of all the beings within it, through listening to and answering their prayer, would be exponentially more complex then the universe itself, and hence, to complex to cause itself, which leads to the question, "Who created God". Again, the only way I've seen this question avoided is through more "special pleading", and this special pleading also avoids the question of "which god".

As for logic "demanding I admit to a cause", it does no such thing, since you statement is a based on a fallacy known as a "hasty generalization", pairs of virtual particles pop in and our of existence all the time. Islamic apologist go even further, and reject Augustine;s argument all together, because in thir words, "Observation, however shows simply that the alleged effect happens alongside the cause rather through it ... and accordingly, such a correlation is not logically necessary but is rather the outcome of a correlation is not logically necessary but is rather the outcome of mere psychological disposition or habit."

As for what logic demands of God, it demands evidence that he exists, and a presupposition is not evidence.


You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.

You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell