A.S.
Even many who profess to be Christians really don't have a correct concept of God. They see God as a punisher and one to be appeased.Even well meaning Christians try to earn salvation by good deeds and regular church attendance.That's not the nature of God or salvation at all.
The correct way to see the situation is that by your own deeds and free will you are already Hell bound.No one is good enough on their own for Heaven. One small lie or even lack of doing the right thing disqualifies you. God's standard is so high that none can earn it. It is so high in fact that only God himself qualifies. Because of that God became a man and suffered the punishment of Hell that men deserve. Because he didn't suffer for his wrong he can grant substitution for anyone who asks. Jesus grants the gift of having suffered in place of any person who seeks salvation from him.
It's even more than just a price paid in the stead of the sinner. Being born again means a union with Christ to the point that the man or woman shares not only in the price paid but in the heart of the redeemer.That born again person has their very nature changed to desire good rather than evil.
It's not about a God who seeks to punish anyone who won't cow down. It's about a God who seeks to rescue those already lost and headed for destruction.
RH, thanks for joining the conversation. There are just a few things you left out.
From the general Christian perspective (you enlightened version may very slightly),
God made the rules.
As the all knowing, all powerful creator of the universe he could make the rules any way he chose, yet, through the doctrine of Original Sin, he choose a set of rules that would dictate their destination as hell, before they are even born.
Now because God chose to set the bar at this spot, he has to create a "loophole" where he held of human sacrifice of himself, to himself, because the rules he created where unfair to begin with.
This is just a update version of the older symmetric practice of seeking vicarious redemption through scapegoating. This is where a tribe would load their sin upon a goat and drive it into the desert to die of thirst and pretend this some how absolved the tribes of their transgression. Now this in now way actually takes away the sins of the individual or tribe. Performing a humans sacrifice, or killing a goat in now way takes away your responsibility. It in no way returns the property you stole, nor returns life to the person you murdered. This not a path to moral. This is a way to escape your morality and responsibilities by accepting another immoral act. Keep in mind, regardless of how good you are, unless you accept your pieces of this human sacrifice, you will be tormented forever, just because God says so...but he loves you.
As for a desire to do good, I have a desire to do good and not evil, no Jesus required. Same with you. Previously you've claimed you were less good in the past then you are today and you credit Jesus with your transformation. Personally I believe the transformation occurred within you, and Christianity just happened to be the philosophy you choose to follow on the path to the new, better, more moral self. You could of chosen most any new guiding philosophy, and so long as you didn't fall in with zealot nutcases, the result would of been pretty much the same.
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Without a Jesus there would be no good or evil and there would be no right or wrong. HE created you in His image and giving you a spirit as He has made you human rather than inhuman, or an animal. That's why the lost try to convince us we are nothing but another form of animal.
A wolf or cougar teaching its young to kill and wasting 25 angors goats in the process, as ive seen cougars do, is not evil or wrong.
It has no concept or perception of right and wrong because there is no right or wrong for it.
You are different from an animal. There is a right or wrong and an evil or good for you. Its the innate knowledge of same your Creator instilled in you that lets you know you are more than an animal and are, in fact, created with a conscience, and thus, in the image of Him.[/quote]
So, let's demonstrate the absurdity of your first premise, "There can be no good or evil without Jesus". The human race has been around for about 250,000 years, but Jesus only can about 2000 years ago. So for the first 248,000 years there was no good or evil? Absurd.
As for us not being animals, for a doctor, you sure don't know your biology. Humans are a species of primate, which is a category of mammal, which is a category of vertebrate, which is a category of animal. Yes, we are animals. We certainly are not plants or minerals.
As for us "behaving like animals", different animals behave in different ways. Part of being human is the ability to learn and to modify our behavior to better enable us to live together.
A wolf killing 25 goats is not bad for the goats? Really? If they were your goats you don't see the benefit in shooting the wolf before he eats the rest of our goats? That sounds like something a liberal would say.
As for the rest of your claims, you still have not presented sufficient evidence to establish the existence of a creator to move onto these further dependent claims. [/quote]
You begin your argument with dogma. Much like religionist do. Your number, 250,000 years is improvable, and has been pushed back to 2 to 4 million years depending on wither or not science in its omnipotence find it convenient.
Naturalist, however, do not use those terms like dogma. They use phrases like, "It is the best explanation we have."
To the naturalist, any explanation will do, as long as it does not include God.
