Originally Posted by Yondering
Originally Posted by 458 Lott
If I carried a 380, the extreme penetrator would be my choice, I can also see it in the 45 acp in bear country.

I'm not so sure I'm sold on it in the 9mm vs crack heads as IMHO for rounds that can't break 1000 fps I want a non expanding bullet with a good meplat, but at 1100-1200 fps I'd prefer a bullet that expands some. But if I'm carrying a couple spare mags, one would be filled with the extreme penetrators.


I think some of you guys are still misunderstanding these bullets. They don't expand, but they cause damage like an expanding bullet, without wasting any energy on deforming the bullet itself. This is not a bullet that zips through like an FMJ or slow hard cast flat nose.

I want the benefits of an expanding bullet too, but that doesn't mean I need the bullet to actually expand; the effect is what matters, right?

I'm not sure where 1100-1200 fps comes in, unless you're wanting weak loads. My 90gr ED 9mm loads are running 1525 fps from a G19, and Underwood sells them loaded to 1550 fps. The whole reason to use a lighter bullet is for high velocity, to cause more damage like an expanding bullet. If you're not going to push them fast, just use a hard cast flat nose and call it done; this one isn't your cup of tea.

As a side note, high velocity hard cast bullets can perform similarly to these Lehigh bullets, although not quite as impressive. I've been casting and loading the new Lee 95gr FN 9mm bullet (drops at 102gr for me) at 1500 fps; it doesn't do as much damage as the 90gr Lehigh but still a lot more than 147gr hard cast flat nose, or any FMJ, and still penetrates deeper than any of the popular 9mm expanding jacketed bullets. This one pictured was fired into water jugs at 1500 fps; it exploded the first few jugs and penetrated 5 IIRC, while my 124gr Gold Dot bullets are always stopped in the 3rd jug. You can see the nose bucked up just a bit, but it's undamaged otherwise. That's the 90gr Extreme Defender bullet in the background.

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Yondering,

I remain skeptical but I'm interested in learning more. What I haven't seen yet is how large the soft tissue wound channel is as measured. Everyone is saying "wound channel like a JHP" but when I look closely at ballistic gelatin that has been shot with these bullets, the wound track seems to be right at, or slightly above starting caliber. Is there anything that gives an actual diameter of the wound track, so that the round can be more accurately assessed against a JHP?

Also, for secondary wounding from stretch cavity, the velocity number that has always been accepted is 2,000fps. This was the number given all the way back near the turn of the 20th century, and in several articles written by Dr. Fackler, he pretty much confirmed that 2kfps seems to be about the right velocity. Anything below that and it has to be a shot that comes extremely close to a non-elastic piece of body tissue.

So again I remain dubious about its effects from high velocity...and the fact that over the decades I've seen a LOT of extremely high velocity handgun rounds come and go. They all make nearly identical claims, but as time goes on we find out that the claims just aren't so.

I won't go so far as to say "my mind is made up" in regards to carry ammo, and I like to say I'm open minded...and hope that is true.

I really want to see solid numbers rather than photos of things shot because photos of things shot often doesn't tell the whole story...and often can be created by first ensuring precisely perfect conditions.

That's why most ammunition evaluations scientifically list a numerical value for each category such as; Velocity, starting bullet weight, ending bullet weight, starting bullet diameter, ending bullet diameter, penetration on bare gelatin, penetration on (and then list each test medium), etc.


For my primary carry ammo, I'm pretty happy with the overall performance, but there's always room for a "specialty round" in one of my spare magazines. But I need to see the stats/numbers etc before I'm really going to be convinced.