Originally Posted by MontanaMan
Since I haven't shot the same rifles with an A2 stock & then changed it to some kind of an M4 stock, I cannot quantitatively say how much difference the stock makes on the same rifle with me shooting it.

But all my rifles are built to my own "precision" standards, & to me that means ALL top tier parts, including top level single or 2-stage triggers & suspect that if I performed the trial above I might see from an 1/8" to maybe a 1/4" at the most, difference in group size.............but maybe nothing either.

My guns are not built to be "minute of man" & most will do MOA, with a few maybe slightly >MOA, but then again, not every gun has, or will have, extensive specific load development...........they just get generic loads that are used in other guns. I'm not interested in doing long load development for a dozen different modern sporting rifles; I really want as many as possible to shoot acceptably with as few a load variations as possible...........in doing that, obviously, some will be a little more or less optimized than other.

The ones that are sub-MOA all have stainless barrels; the others have either nitrided or chrome lined barrels, but all are top tier barrels in their type category.

But for the designated purposes of any of the guns, an 1/8" - 1/4" change in group size is meaningless...............it's only meaningful for true competiters or those interested in maximizing bragging rights.

MM



MM, I'm wondering how many of us do exactly what you are describing with their loads. I know I'm guilty of it. Sometimes I laugh at myself and think about that old saying, "the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result". How true is that with some of your loads and rifles, specifically AR's. For me anyway. I'll laugh at myself because it really describes what I've been doing for a while. I like showing pictures to show you guys what I mean. I remember developing a load for my stag, it was a pretty good load with the 69gr SMK bullet. It shot into sub moa consistently. For a long time, I'd strive to do better with each visit to the range. That was with the same load. That load in particular proved to be very good for just about every AR rifle I own:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
I shot that 3 years ago, and still use that same load. Later I shot a score that almost tied my heavy azzed stag, with a rifle I had found locally all put together exactly how I wanted. It was used, but I had to buy it. I had a good feeling about it:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Plus it was not nearly as heavy as my 24" barreled Stag. Some remarks made about heavy axle barreled rifles, got me to thinking and I decided to get rid of the Stag. This used Northtech Defense shot very well with that 69gr sierra load:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Then comes my Noveske. That rifle Seemed to like that load too, but it has never shot a sub moa score in the black rifle challenge here:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Its been close, but no cigar. I was almost to the point of selling the Noveske, until the thread about iron sights came up. It got me to thinking that maybe I could throw some irons on that rifle, shoot it in some local events and maybe like the rifle more. I don't expect it to ever shoot sub moa in the black rifle challenge here, but I keep trying. And it is with the same old load I've been using in 3 different rifles..
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Well, I tweaked the load a bit to get closer to MOA with the old Noveske:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]


For me, the only reason I bought an AR was so I could shoot the black rifle challenge here. So in a way, it's always been about accuracy for me. Where the AR's are concerned. With that being said, the 69gr SMK load isn't the only load I have. For a while I was on a 73 ELD match load kick. My new Colt loves that load, even better than the SMK load. Then there's the 77TMK which looks real promising. I'm glad there are guys here that can add to this thread because I know there are more here that are concerned about getting the most out of their AR's. I'm not the only one.


Originally Posted by raybass
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style.
Originally Posted by Pharmseller
You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole.

BSA MAGA