Points to consider:

I can walk the hundred yards from the front door to the highway without stepping over anything. But I ain't bothered with trespassers.

It ain't worth the risk to them.

A physical barrier is worthless against people unless it is manned by guards that are incorruptible. Adding all the new people to the B P has resulted in much more corruption in the ranks.

Over half of our Mexican Border is the center of a River. Build a fence in N.M. ,Az. , and Ca. and you force most of the illicit traffic to the River.

Those who claim a fence can be built DOWN THE CENTER of the Rio Grande have never had to fix water gaps in a fence after a heavy rain. It is a RIDICULOUS suggestion that displays the ignorance of anyone who entertains it for more than a few seconds. There's some pretty good sized Reservoirs on that river as well.

The Federal Gov't has already defacto ceded millions of acres to Mexico by moving the patrols many miles off the River. Building a fence anywhere on THIS side of the River, even though logistically possible, takes land away from American citizens and deprives wildlife and domestic animals of the only sure source of water in a huge area.

The "border problem" can certainly be solved.

But as long as idiots like Trump and O'Reilly are not called on their B.S., no sane voices will be heard.

You have the debate all to yourself so just keep right on debaiting.

U need to go trapping ...u build the fence to funnel the game to pinch points...works great on my line.…...should work on folks that "start off their 1st day -- in country by breaking the law".

A fence is completely impractical. Those who want in this country will find a way in spite of any minor physical barrier we erect. Save for making entry into this country at anything other than a border crossing station a capital offense, the only way to make a difference is to take away their incentive to come here. Employment.

Fence or wall is only a deterrent when the govt. is willing to enforce the law and that border.

It is only another tool in the arsenal to stop illegal immigration, but is only as effective as the administration allows it to be.

Which brings up another point... Just because one administration puts up a costly fence or wall, doesn't mean that the next administration up to bat will put it to good use and enforce it. Without enforcement, it may as well not be there.

Perhaps the money would be better spent on enforcement.

And welfare...!

Every form of 'welfare' this country provides is a pretty big incentive too...!

People will go where economic opportunity takes them. There was a wall where I was stationed in the Army that had guard towers manned by extremely motivated people with machine guns, it had mine fields and barbed wire and was constantly patrolled, but some folks still were motivated enough to cross it. Lots got killed in the attempt, but it didn't stop people from trying.

The only way to stop illegal immigration is to take away the incentives to immigrate. No one I know of is risking deportation to immigrate to Somalia, unless they just have this lifelong dream to be a pirate.

Problem is that too many businesses on this side benefit from the cheap labor it provides and the Democratic Machine benefits way too much from the votes they provide, so there is no incentive to those offering incentives to quit offering them.

If you can solve that problem then a wall or even a well guarded border becomes superfluous.



Added: oops, didn't read PaulBarnard's post first, but will reiterate that incentives are the key.

You also have to ask yourself why the political will doesn't exist to disincentivize illegal immigration. Who wants to take a crack at that?

There are certainly limitations to a fence but it might be useful in some areas. Better than a fence would be national e-verify required for employers. If they hire anyone who doesn't pass the e-verify screen they pay a hefty fine. This would require ongoing government audits but would dry up many of the jobs that illegals now work and without jobs many would go back where they came from. The incentive for most illegals is economic. If that incentive is taken away there will be a lot fewer of them.

Take away the jobs, health care and welfare, and Canada would need the fence to slow the stampede North.

Trump repeatedly says that Mexicans love him because he hires thousands of them. Does anybody here believe that all those hotel maids and janitors are American citizens? That's another one of those conflicts he's going to have to deal with.

there is a nice big fence down around douglas/aqua prieta, over to naco, and hereford. millions of dollars putting that fence in. What tickles me there were openings left in the fence for wildlife to be able to get through such as coyotes, the four legged kind, etc. YOU THINK? There are parts of the desert down there border patrol is NOT allowed to enter as it might disturb the ecosystem.

The wall isn't the answer to stopping all illegal immigration, but having a wall, properly spaced border agents and giving them the orders to enforce our laws would definitely bring it to manageable levels.

Right now the atmosphere is to come here and if you happen to get caught, the government has little will to deport you unless you're a felon.

The first thing we need to do is put someone who is serious about homeland security in charge of homeland security.

That wall would just slow down illegals, but also terrorists, drug mules, and anyone else who is crossing the border to break our laws.

fixed

It's going to take a special breed again to do what needs to be done. Those types exist today but they will not be allowed to do what needs to be done.



You have to get as many of them as you can the first time. There is more at stake than simply just illegal immigrants. They are evil individuals out there doing unthinkable crimes. And they fear nothing because they have nothing to fear, except their jefes.

Spot on, Bob!

That a picture of some old-time line riders?

It is way past time to de-Incentivize ANY Illegal from coming much less staying.
No jobs, No aid. Make it painful to stay here.

Somehow we manage to keep North and South Korea apart, why can't the same thing work between U.S. and Mexico? To heck with the Border Patrol, we should use the military to patrol the border. We have a Department of Defense, after all, not a Department of de fence.

Barry,
That's a photo of rangers after the Norios ranch raid October 1916! Just north of Raymondville!!! Bandits against a U.S. army and ranger company hit by bandits the night before!

The issue is for almost 100 years we had men who had first hand, seen the cruelty that occurred over that border. Seen what that evil that existed there was capable of. They fought these people on almost a day to day basis. This was all they understood. They have now been chastised by history as racist. That many "innocent" died. Well there were innocent on both sides!

The entire scenario played out today labels "us" as the villian and thief! Poor Mexico!!! Puro toro caca!!! It was simply a matter of having to strike first before the enemy.

I want the border closed. But, I'd rather have it done by folks that know what they are doing. Sometimes, sending green recruits with an M-4 to the border doesn't work out so well.

http://www.ndsn.org/july97/goats.html

Don't care much for military on private property.

Yeah, it's not real PC now to fight wars, (Or at least WIN wars.) Or to close the border.

If you are gonna make mayonnaise, you have to break some eggs...

Cool story about the raid! Thanks!

For a bunch of supposedly ol' western (even Tejican) ranchers and ranch hands, y'all sure sound like a bunch of greenhorn damnyankees

You've got a "pest" problem. How do you deal with it?

Well, first of all figure out what is luring the pest to your place in the first place. Money and gov't benefits. That lure ain't an easy one to do away with or even control, but it's got to be done. The Trump idea of eliminating birth-right citizenship is a non-starter, but at least it starts a conversation about benefits and that's the issue. There has to be some reform in the gov't benefit programs in order to cut down on the attraction of illegals and worthless, non-working native born citizens.

Until, or in addition to, cutting out the "bait", you've got to cut the flow. A damned fence works to do that in three ways: first, it makes passage in certain areas (those that are fenced) more difficult. This creates a funnel to areas that aren't fenced. Now, you can do two things; leave areas so inhospitable that crossing is near certain death unfenced, and/or leave areas that you want to serve as pinch-points for traps unfenced to force more through there to get caught.

When you catch the pests, you have to deal with them. Elimination is not a viable option, to trap and relocation is. I'm not saying relocate just south of the border to have them come right back; I mean relocation to somewhere a hell of a long way away. Panama, for example... take their asses to the Canal and drop them off there to the U.N. or whomever else. Hell, take them to the Hague as international refugees and have them deal with them. Just take them somewhere it makes returning damned difficult.

You've still got a pest infestation internal to deal with. Natural attrition (some simply leaving) will happen. When you catch those internal, relocate similarly to the others caught trying to enter.

Yeah, the infestation is huge and it's a big damned problem that will take a long time to fix. It has to be fixed, and it will take a multi-pronged approach to do it. A fence is definitely part of that approach, as are all the rest.

One would assume that folks who had experience with ranches, etc., would understand this.

As long as our government subsidizes illegal immigration, it will continue. A wall doesn't have to be all or nothing. Build it where it is practical. Use electronics where it isn't.

That's the main issue right there...our government DOES subsidize illegal immigration.

I don't think we have trouble understanding.

The main problem is our own government. That problem with immigration has exploded with Obama. That's a smell that's hard to miss.

The Dems want to import more democrats, and the GOP is afraid they will.

Meanwhile, the cartels make billions smuggling drugs and people. They now have amassed enough money and power to challenge the gov't in Mexico; witness the public works project they did under the nose of the officials to free El Chapo.

If we don't fix the border, they will continue to gain power, until they have enough influence to corrupt or coerce officials on both sides of the border. The next election here won't really matter, because Mexico will become another Somalia.

I'd say triple the number of border guards, and supporting courts, and prosecutors - then let them enforce the border. Whether they need to find and destroy tunnels, or chase coyotes on horseback, let them do their job.

Like in the [bleep]'s aides are calling South American governments, publishing pamphlets to facilitate entrance into the US.

And we will be the next Venezuela and I am not kidding

Ain't you, Barry. There's more than a few that don't get it.

It's a multi-faceted problem (just like any infestation), and it will take a multi-pronged approach to fix it. One solution, alone, ain't gonna cut it.

Hell, I know you know that.

Think 38th Parallel.. Stop playing games with those from south of the border. No need for a debate.

Can't lay it all at Obama's feet, but he sure as hell has done his part to screw it up.

George Bush II had a perfect opportunity and excuse to tighten our border security after 9/11 and he squandered it.

Told me then & there that politics was still more important than American lives to all these a-holes we send to Washington.

We should build a fence and put the damned politicians behind it.

Some here have nailed it. Fences work but they do not work alone. fences would help funnel illegals to parts of the border where our border patrol officers, equipped and unshackled by politics could do their jobs. I fully understand it would not stop the illegals from coming but as the Navy taught me in Damage Control School plugging a hole in the side of a ship the best you can in a way that stops most of the water makes the water the remaining in a lot easier to clean up and can stop the ship from sinking. The same it true about our southern border, stop the mass deluge of illegals by plugging the border the best we can and the leaks will be a lot easier to clean up. But that is just phase one. Phase two has to make it so hard on those who are here they will want to leave. No benefits that give then better deals than working Americans have. No welfare, no free medical, no food stamps, no free education and e-verify put to full use with stiff penalties for the employers and those who are trying to take away jobs for American citizens.

Kick out all who stay. No sanctuary cities no places to hide. Those who leave voluntarily should be in line to return legally with guest worker visas. Those who have criminal records or who have to be deported blocked from ever returning.

One other thing, since Mexico is such a willing partner in helping those wanting to break US immigration laws the fences will be built on their side of the border. That is two if not three fences with good roads and no vegetation or hiding places between fences. Not one square inch of US soil or river bed given up.

Disclaimer: These are just my thoughts gleaned and pondered for reading the thoughts and reports who live and work on our southern border. I do not live there and only have listened and read.

One must first stop the leak or slow it down,before bailing will do any good.

Steps need to be made,it will not stop all at once.

Make it unpleasant for folks to try to cross and then get the ones that are here.
After they catch bank robbers one at a time!

This. We have well trained and professional Border Patrol Agents, give then the tools and support they need to do their jobs, back them up and let them do what they do better than anyone else.

Just wait until ISIS shows their hand in this country, aided by the Mex drug mafia and abetted by the Mex government. Border security may become high priority.

Americans built this. I think Americans could build a wall.

LMAO!

Well played.

I am not convinced we will have to wait for that. Wait implies it is not already happening.

Exactly.

Therein lies part of the problem.

However, the majority of the problem is the 47% of the population who couldn't figure out if they wanted a fence or why, and then the numbers within the other 53% (as evidenced on this thread) that are ready to quit before they even start because "it's too expensive/it'll never work/it'll take too long/etc."

This Republic is falling for exactly the same reasons as Rome did, and damned few realize it (or even care).

Interesting thread.

The only way to stop them is to stop giving them succour...and start seriously penalising those who offer employ or aid.


Twenty years in gaol and confiscation of all assets would be a good start to the "serious" effort.

That is part one; reduce the lure/attraction. Part two is make ingress more difficult and trapping more likely. Part three is removal from within.

Vertebrate pest management; the concepts apply equally regardless of the species involved.

There are two incentives here..

The only one we are talking about is the wetbacks incentive for coming here.

We need to do away with the incentives to hire them. Make the penalty hurt. If it costs so much more to hire them, than they are worth, that incentive goes away as well.

Make it hurt.

Neither party wants a comprehensive plan or laws (hell, we don't even enforce the laws already on the books!) that tackles the illegal immigrant problem because one side views them as potential voters and the other is paid to look the other way.

That said, border fences (built correctly) deter illegals from coming over.

We don't need a DMZ type border, but something very close to it would be effective.

Too bad Mexico couldn't have been in Africa.

It belongs there.

Some time ago I came to the conclusion that the Australian Government hates Australians, it seems you have the same problem with the American Government.

Our government loves itself. It wants to get bigger and bigger.

i can't remember the guy off of the top of my head, maybe it was jordan, but one of those ol texas border guys wrote in one of his books about having to pay a fine for shooting into a bush and killing a hog by mistake. He grumbled if it would have been a mexican nobody would have cared.

That would have been ole Charlie Askins.

The Jews have been building a fence in Israel to help keep the terrorist out and it is working fine.

pretty much.
but i think there are large parts of arizona where a "fence" is not practical but other methods are. What fences do is force the trade routes up in the mountains where it is harder to get at them. there are ways of stopping it. Other than watching B.P. sitting on about 50 new arrivals a few miles north of sasabe in the altar valley transporting them back to sasabe, under catch and release, so they can try the next day, then going back up to the road to sells, and watching a "mule" with a backpack bigger that he was getting ready to cross the road to indian rz land. While bp is cruising along in the a/c on the major highway .

there are solutions that would drive out the illegal aspects of it almost over night. But there isn't the will to do it.
A lot of the new arrivals these days come from further south than mexico, central america and so on. Mexicans treat this influx on their southern border much different than we do here.

I lived in West Germany for several years back in the early 80's. Funny, I don't recall (other than a very small handful) any East Germans or any other folks from Eastern Europe slipping across the boarder wall...

Yes, but the Jews are allowed to kill the fence jumpers...betting you won't.

Obama believes in fences.

We on the other hand could destroy the terrorists and choose not to.

"One would assume that folks who had experience with ranches, etc., would understand this."

OTOH, Nobody expects an unemployed lawyer to understand you can't build a fence or wall down the center of the Rio Grande.

And THAT is the elephant in the room that a bunch of you know it alls don't want to talk about.

And... for the Northern trapping expert, that "pinch 'em to a controlled point" is exactly what the BP in the El Paso Sector has been doing for thirty years that I can attest to.

I damn sure wouldn't make a fool out of myself by arguing with Kamo Gari about something in Boston.

But y'all go right ahead on about "the border" and building a fence or wall.

And post some more pictures of that wall in China.... but show the 200 miles of it down the ceer of a river this time.

Where in hell did you come from? I thought it was all idiots on the other side of the "debate".

But...... Did you know that your idea has been implemented for a lot of years?

But when the guys who are charged with responding to the electronic triggers are corrupt, they are not much of an impediment.

Not really. Implementation requires follow through. We paid for a fence once, but that isn't the same as building one.

But where is the 1200 miles of river in the picture?

I'm not surprised by the stupidity displayed by most of the respondents to this thread.

But I am surprised by you beating the drum for a fence down the center of a river.

I'd rather not have to do so either, but it is being forced upon us. Private property is what is being defended. The way things are headed, private property may cease to exist if we don't defend our borders. Agree we need people who know what they are doing, but that is a training issue, not a policy issue. I would even go so far as to have military personnel in our sea- and air-ports where international cargo/travelers are incoming.

Can anybody post a picture of a fence down the center of a free-flowing river?

1200 miles long?

500 miles long?

100 miles long?

10 miles long?

5 miles long?

Trump is a builder... surely he has done it or he wouldn't propose it.

Well, just go ahead and surrender, Gene.

Good Lord, YOU ought to know how to control pest problems on a ranch; river or not.

Put the damned fence on the MEXICAN side of the border, or ours, but put the damned thing up.

It's PART of the solution; not the whole damned thing - but definitely a part.

A physical fence along/within the river is impractical, obviously. However, with today's technology, you don't need a physical wall or fence.. Put cameras and motion detectors etc. and have soldiers or police ready to act/in position when a illegal border crossing is detected.

And that's just one layer. Aside from protecting our physical boarders, there's also the issue of enforcing the laws currently on the books. Take the financial incentive away from them, and most will deport themselves.

No social welfare programs, no school, no transportation, no medical, and ALL govt. agencies/programs (to include State, City, municipal, local, etc.) required to report illegals to ICE.

It's our river Byatch !
10 miles South of the puckking river suits me fine.
Claymored in between if necessary...

And I wasn't refering to Pedro and Inez dumped by some coyote out in a pear flat in Brooks county. Yeah you've got your work cut out stopping that. Hell they couldnt even stop it during the war.

My referral was to the kind of guys who beat the hell out of you, lock you in your pick up truck and pile on the old fence post and gasoline.

You seem stuck on the fence in the river thing. The Idea of building the fence on or in the river is beyond stupid. Mexico has been actively supporting the invasion of this country. The whole damned fences and a DMZ type space in between two fences if not three fences should be on the Mexico side of the border. Do you honestly think we are so week we could not force this issue?

Now we are talking!

Amen Brother

The centerline of the Rio Grande is indeed the border for quite a distance.

But, where does it say the fence has to be built in the centerline of the border?

I had a piece of property once that went to the center of the Nueces River. I didn't build a fence in the middle of the river, though. It worked much better above the high water mark on my side of the river.

"Put the damned fence on the MEXICAN side of the border, or ours, but put the damned thing up."

Our side is privately owned except for BBNP. But if you're cool with Texans giving up their property for the illusion of safety it will give the yankees... that is an option.

But..... it's probably 300 miles by river from Del Rio to Ft Hancock. How many places you reckon there are, in just that one stretch, where you can DRIVE to a spot where you can even SEE the river? Even if you had permission?

Go on...... take a guess. You'd be wrong. You'd have to build 25 -50 miles of road for each mile of fence. And the roads will wash out every five miles at least once a year.

Y'all ought to be grateful that I take the time to discuss this.

The other members who actually have spent considerable time on that River ain't interested in educating a bunch of damn fools.

Including Trump.

This thread is destined for greatness.




Travis

If you have property within 25 miles of the border, even in Texas, you have to give U.S.B.P. access. Even if you keep it locked. They can come on your land and search without warrant for illegals.

Been that way for years.

They had keys to my ranch gates.

The thoughtful commentary is almost as inspiring as the one about the SAS sniper...

I never knew so many people drank during the day.

Might be easy to fix the problem?

America gives hundreds of millions of dollars of foreign aid to Mexico.

Simply make it that every illegal immigrant we capture coming across the border reduces foreign aid to Mexico by $100,000 so that we can afford to process them back.

Mexican gov't might solve the problem REALLY quick for us.

It's OUR problem. Not Mexico's.

It's just time we started breaking some eggs to make our mayonnaise.

You are wasting your time with trump, if he really is employing thousands of them then he is a part of the problem and cannot assist.

Like the filth that employ illegals here.

Gene, from somebody who hasn't spent significant time on the border...it looks to me like a lot of the property owners are already being forced into "legit" sales to Cartel members thus taking the private owners as yet another barrier to illegal crossings, out of the picture. I don't like forcing people to give up their land for the "greater good" at all, but if they are going to be coerced by drug dealers into doing so anyway, pay them way more than a fair price so they can go anywhere they want WHERE IT IS SAFE and build the fence. That or just force our way into Mexico and build it ten miles on Mexican soil. We've started numerous wars in the middle east anyway, so one over illegal border crossings is certainly more justified.

Round up and deport the illegals and use any monies confiscated to build and man it. Money from all these former confiscations that local popo's have done should be rounded up and further used for this.

All the world is a stage, and trump is an actor

An extremely bad one with a [bleep] hair piece.

Well, Genius... Everytime one of you Damnyankees mentions building a fence on the Border, YOU'RE THE ONES SAYING BUILD IT IN THE CENTER OF THE RIVER,BECAUSE THAT IS THE BORDER.

AND IF EVEN YOU FINALLY FIGURED IT OUT, MY TIME HAS BEEN WELL SPENT.

And....... I have been waaaaay out in front of people like you on a solution.

The very first thread about the Border on this forum, many years ago, I said "THE SOLUTION TO THE BORDER PROBLEM MUST BE IMPLEMENTED IN MEXICO.... BY US....... not on our side of the River.

All the "Elites", and their groupies , like you, branded me an idiot for advocating an armed incursion into a friendly neighbor.

Good evidence the ground work is in process now, meant that people may wake up once some major targets are hit on our soil. Isis is making open threats that something big will happen soon.

Mexico isn't a "friendly" neighbor.

Absolutely agree... things like E-Verify/fines/stop issuing DL's are no-brainers. Letting BP do their job rather than hamstring them with stupid rules. Etc, etc.

But it SURE would help if Mexico would quit enabling the Central American illegals. And cutting foreign aid is revenue neutral - no $$ out of our pocket. If they are going to aid illegals entering our country, they aren't our ally and aren't deserving of foreign aid.

Lease the God damned land. F'kin' Tejicans sure as Hell understand money just as much as anything else. So, rebuild the f'kin' thing.

Or, we could act like Tejicans and declare it impossible and go back to pissing and moaning about losing "their" land to illegals.

The Soviets built some pretty serious fences.

The price of not paying for what is objectively needed, is America itself. The Mexicans are using the border as a political safety valve and a subsidy system. That needs to stop, on the side we control since the Mexicans will not.

Either side of the damned river y'all are so f'kin' scared of. Mexican side? Fine. Take it. Tejican side? Lease it.

Schit, that'll pay Tejicans (they understand money, don't they?) and it MIGHT even shut them up.

Build the f'kin' thing.

Yep. Pretty damned amazing when the f'kin' Russians and Mexicans understand building fences to protect property and nation more so than Tejicans.

As long as its not too high

http://www.breitbart.com/big-journa...as-too-high-for-mexicans-to-safely-jump/

Solution #2
If you schoot'em they'll stop coming

There are a lot of things that MUST be done to fix the immigration problem. A lot of them have been mentioned in this thread.

But as long as people like Trump and O'Reilly can get by with claiming a "fence on the border" is practical, any sane voices won't be heard.

And a "sane voice" will be the one to advocate securing the Border from the South side.

With ZERO co-ordination with the Mexican Government.

"Fight 'em over there so we don't have fight 'em over here".... sound familiar?

A fence is part of the solution; just as it is with any vertebrate pest management system. Part, not all of, but part.

Like I said.

"The other members who actually have spent considerable time on that River ain't interested in educating a bunch of damn fools."

What do you have against taking the fight across the River?

Speaking of fences, It's time for Cruz to get off of it.

http://www.texastribune.org/2013/09/13/immigration-cruz-aims-middle-ground/

When it comes to immigration reform, U.S. Sen. Ted Cruz has made it abundantly clear what he opposes: giving citizenship to people who broke the law to come here.

What has not been as evident is what he supports: legal status for millions of people here already, while making it easier for immigrants to come here through the front door.

Nothing at all. The fence could be built there, or here, but it needs to be built.

Doing it there requires military invasions and a lot of $$ and blood.

Doing it here, perhaps it costs something different.

What part of "part of the solution" doesn't make sense when dealing with a vertebrate pest problem? The rest of the solution needs to be implemented as well.

Build it with mesican labor.

I want to throw this out in all seriousness. Legit question. Not trying to be a smart Azz. Nothing to do with what we can or can't do. Fence or not. Don't matter.


If you were an older land owner ( senior citizen as many are there) on the north side of the river. And we're approached by the two parties. Who would you be more apt to lease your property to? The U.S. Govt or a cartel?

And why?

Geez.

Pretty much the same thing... Only one operates under a charade of legality.

Well, either one is just as likely to kill you, and either is just as likely to take your land afterward.

Scylla and Charybdis.

How is THIS "sitting on the fence"...?


"What Cruz has tried to articulate in both word and deed is a middle ground. It got no support from Democrats in Washington, but it goes further than many on the far right want to go by offering leniency to undocumented immigrants here already: A path to legal status, but not to citizenship. A green card with no right to naturalization."

It's a common sense solution that doesn't leave a bunch of unanswered questions........ unlike "Build a fence and deport 'em all TRUMP" .

Have YOU ever held a job that could be done by an ignorant wetback?

Me neither.

Yankee yes I was born and 66 years later still live north of the Mason Dixon Line but my friend, Damnedyankee hurts. Have lived in the South and having many friends in the South I think you missed me on that one.

And I really doubt I branded you anything like that. I know it would not bother me in the least forcing Mexico to have the fence inside their border by more than just a bit. It seems to me I am on your side and I find myself at a loss just why that pisses you off.

Bingo!

Many do not understand the price of doing business on the border. And many have died. Los muertes no hablan.

Yeah, I have. I worked construction and landscaping growing up, and I worked on and around a bunch of farms picking vegetables, fixing fences, and general other maintenance and farm stuff before that.

A fence is part of the solution; same as it is with keeping foxes out of hen houses, but it ain't the end-all-be-all of the solution.

You go with the Cartel.

The U.S. Gov't MIGHT not kill you for going against their wishes.

Thus the reason why it is PART of the solution.

Of course, it sound like the border areas have already sold out (plomo o plata) because the US gov't has abandoned the area.

F'k it. Sounds like the border area is done, folks. Those there have made their choice, and understandably so.

I reckon the rest of us shouldn't worry about it, or simply cede those areas back to Mejico and build the f'kin' wall further inland.

Since the border area has given up, where should we begin construction?

You chances of being offed by the fed's is much slimmer!

Well, Semper Fi, Gene.

Currently, I would not want to lease to either. The end-game with a Cartel would be threatening you and your family if you didn't. The government would do the exact same thing in a different manner. I would not lease to the Cartel because to me, we are at war and they are the enemy. I don't mean the bogus "war on drugs" either. Whatever they started it for, the Mexicans are now an armed force, invading the USA. That constitutes war but our politicians are so bought-off that they won't do anything.

The answer I feel like you're looking for though is that between the two, the Cartels pay better. I don't purport to understand the nuances of Mexican politics, but the Cartels represent an alternative government to the corrupt Mexico City ring that the corrupt Washington DC ring of ours recognizes. The reality is that our government is taking money from both Mexican "governments" while only outwardly recognizing one. IOW, our government is betraying us to the Cartels.

The question for a landowner being pressured would be which corrupt entity to sell out to or eventually have yourself and your whole family murdered, probably in a horrific fashion in order to serve as a lesson to others.

It is interesting fact that nether country and even worse, no political party in this country really wants to do anything to fix the problem. The problem has been around a long time and nothing has been done about it except make it better for the invaders to live here.

I sure have. I've worked side by side with wets and also ones that were here legally and in Texas, no less. I've worked like a dog and been treated like one but I haven't ate one...yet. My ancestors did though.

Conservatives don't want a middle ground on illegal immigration.

Conservatives want their asses out of here. That's why Trump is at 25% and Cruz is about half that.

And the reality is this stuff happens there all the time.

44.40 parallel?

My sense of it is the Fed's will not pay up and eventually will forcibly remove you. If that entailed killing you or imprisoning you, then so be it. The Cartels would probably offer more money but would kill you and yours in horrific fashion if you didn't negotiate.

My understanding is the cartels tell you they are going to pay you and that you will take it.

End of discussion.

It's damned enlightening that on any other issue where the Tejicans can stand up and thump their chest, they'll bleat "Don't Mess with Tejas" or proclaim that "we've played cowboys and Indians before, but we ain't played..." or some such schit.

Yet, one mention of building a fence and perhaps having to deal with the Cartels and the Mexicans and they'll start in on the "it's too hard; it won't work; it's too dangerous; it's too expensive" line of backpeddling and appeasement. Now, they'll love to tell you about how their ancestors (amazing how many those 300 original settlers begat when it comes time to tout lineage...) "took this land and held it against the Mexicans, the Apaches, the Comanches, the Martians, the Russians, the Spaniards, and the Man in the Moon..." but by damn let it be time for them to have something done about the invasion coming only PARTLY through their area, and whoo boy, it's just not something that anyone should ever consider trying.

Yeah, "don't mess with tejas"... just buy them off.

Hey, Gene,.....

You weren't exactly the Lone Ranger, in advocating this particular approach.

I'll certainly attest to the FEROCITY and utter stupidity of the responses thereto.

GTC

If you need an excuse to not do something, just ask a Texan.






Dave

texas is 3/4 mexican,every time a mexican digs a tunnel theres a half mexican on this side digging to to help him over.

build the wall on the north bourder of texas.my main complaint with people from texas running for potus is that they have done nothing to stop the flow,do you actually think they would as president?

Here's a thought. Put an offer out to those illegals already in the country. Work your way to citizenship. Help us build a fence. Room and board for the family and a small salary and citizenship classes required. Once its done you get your US citizens card after passing the test.

Amazing things have been built with lots of manual labor in the past. Don't we have like 25 million illegals?

See my original post in this thread. And the result was I was labeled a damnyankeeite.
And was abruptly told that elimination was not an option.

That's the Democrat Party's number.

Out here WEST of Texas, the idea of defending our state's line has been batted about more than a bit.There are places where a DMZ,....enforced on the South side, is the ONLY thing that will work,....others where, at best, "Defending" this line will incur FURTHER grief and hardship for it's legitimate CITIZENS.

I don't know who came up with this 10 mile DMZ horsechit,....for the START 25 miles looks really good. In places MORE,....but nowhere any less.

TAKE this land,....NEVER give it back to PRI, PAN, or the plethora of shifting slimy alliances popularly called cartels. NEVER give it back to, "The People of Mexico", unless we see a populist movement that actually MEANS something. Reviewing the last coupla' centuries of lost opportunities to do just that leaves me skeptical.

No "checkpoints" on highways and byways North of the line, ...cuz' none are NEEDED,.....put the goddam USCBP on the fuggin' BORDER where it's supposed to be, thank you very much.

No their number is just give them a free ride. I say make them work for their ride.

Best and sanest post on this thread thus far !

GTC

Oh no Greg!!!!! We have to take a more enlightened approach!! Ship them all to Panama!!

At least I am in good company.

You misunderstand my meaning. The actual number of illegals estimated to be in this country is under great dispute. 25 million is way on the low end. I've heard 100 million before. Likely the number is like, 40 million.

Roflmao!

So once the fence is built we start deporting the one's that didn't help.... now that we have a better chance of stopping them from coming back.

(and yes I did misunderstand your point.)

The border walls seemed to work very well between East and West Germany after WW2. How about between North and South Korea currently?

Border walls work, it's the type of walls and force used to guard the border walls that is the issue...

I don't believe that I ever called you a damnyankee; correct me if I'm wrong.

As for elimination; two ways to do that - trap and removal of the pests that can be dealt with that way, and if they resist then eliminate the pest permanently.

Same as with any other vertebrate pest management issue.

As for the Panama crack; first place further South I could think of that offered a good port to dock a large ship.

Personally, I don't want any of them here. Round them up and put them to work on the fence if you want. Then deport them and their families afterwards.

Roughly 1/10 of the entire U.S. population, for reference.

Think about that for a moment and let it sink in.

Yes and I have posted this here before too! But being it was French nobody pays attention to it. And it worked!!! Especially with the artillery batteries locked in!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morice_Line

I don't need to let it sink in. I already understand the issue. I'm half-Texan. The whole of the issue is money. There is money to be made by having them here and money to be made by keeping the border porous for drug running. The root of all evil. We elect politicians that constantly sell us out. Part of it is human nature but part of it is manageable. We the People just have more and more abdicated our responsibility. The more who abdicate, the harder it makes it for those of us who don't wish to.

When all this mess started, the number that was thrown out there was 12 million illegals. Now we're talking 30? I know they've been coming over in droves lately but....

Build the fence. Build it where ever and however it needs to be built, but build it. That's step one.

"The Morice Line had a significant impact of the reduction of guerrillas activities by forces that originated from Tunisia. Though the Morice Line was not a 'fortification' in the traditional sense of the word, it was nonetheless effective in reducing FLN activity during the Algerian War."

Check out my new sig line.

I think 30 is still low. Then again I live closer to the border than Pennsylvania, Maryland or Wyoming.

What would happen to anyone along the border if they started actually "doing what needs to be done" as some have said? They'd likely be hunted down by the US law and the Cartels is my guess. Maybe one day the US law would back them up. But I'm not holding my breath.

I think the first thing that should be done is, make it legal for illegals to *only* live in those places which have declared themselves to be "sanctuary cities".

Have about 8 million illegals show up in San Francisco overnight and hang around there until them fuggin' liberals get their mind right on the matter.

Then we can all have a talk about it.

Roughly 1/10 of the entire U.S. population, for reference.

Think about that for a moment and let it sink in. [/quote]

Spain was occupado by the moozslums for over 600 years.
Then they were politely asked to leave.
Think about that for a moment or two And let that sink in.

"For a bunch of supposedly ol' western (even Tejican) ranchers and ranch hands, y'all sure sound like a bunch of greenhorn damnyankees".

Ok. I will admit now it sounds funny and I see your humor! Really!

But I reference my original post stating you better get as many as you can the first time around!!! That was an allusion to the Comanche/Apache wars. Because if you don't. They and all their damn cousins are comin' back.

We all know what needs to be done. But it's damn hard to do with both your hands tied behind your back.

Ethan,
I see them everywhere too. Here in Wyoming and in Maryland when I visit the family. I'm just wondering where these numbers are coming from.

Second sanest post of the day!

I still think there are legal ways to stop this problem. I really doubt anyone here will be using any illegal means to stop women and children.

Understood, agreed, and as stated it's only part of the solution.

Glad you caught that, as it went RIGHT over the heads of many.

I would love to see that happen to SF and Seattle too. Then fence those cities and send them all to Mexico including the liberal Americans who think sanctuary cities are a good thing.

How wide is the Rio Grand at its widest point? If a wall forces more to the river, does not the wall serve a purpose?

Not really. Easily crossed in many places without much wading much of the year.

there is an awful lot of that border in arizona that is NOT private property, just saying.

they may have acess to your ranch, but i know one guy down there in arizona told them to bugger off.
There are also chunks b.p. is NOT allowed to enter due to the fragile ecosystem.

I was just talking to somebody that use to be from wisconsin. He told me that people that came from there, are well, different. I have a few examples on here to check his statement out.

No matter what we think or how much we want it to happen the really sad thing is I doubt anything will be done to improve the illegal problem on any front no matter who gets elected to any position.

in my early years, quite a few.

scott, you aren't really a yankee, you is a N.W. yankee which almost makes you a cannuck.
I am not sure that is good or bad.

I think I would take it as a complament. The Canadians I have met in BC and AB are some damned fine people.

Same as being called a Damnedyankee in the same thread Kaywoodie got called the same thing. Are there Damnedyankee Cannucks

greg
you had a really good solution a couple of years ago that i never forgot, but ain't gonna post it.

Kaywoodie is no yankee. a little strange maybe, may come from speaking french,spanish, and texican, but he is a honest to God texican from the ol school.

That is what I thought but I have been wrong before.

even Tejican

and i thought this was hillarious, spelling it that way, I think santa anna did too.

Well, as usual I didn't read the whole thread so forgive me if this has been mentioned. Looks like a few at least alluded to a similar solution.
My idea is one of those no one would consider because its wayyyyy too politically incorrect.
I would string up a simple fence, like a three strander, and another 20-yards into the U.S. paralleling it.
The space in between would be declared a free fire zone, anybody would be invited to 'patrol' it.

And rumor has it a smattering of Dutch!



Black Dutch???

One of my favorite clips Bob!

I love when curdog starts a thread.




Travis

It doesn't degrade as fast as when I start a thread....

You can be responsible for killing the women and children.

And raping the cattle!!!

No wait! Travis already asked for that.

I like your style 4. I've said this before but it wasn't received well by the Texas gang, nonetheless it's still painfully true

As with ingwe, I did not read the whole thread, but I will say that one wall this side of the river with about 3-4ft of three strand ELECTRIFIED wire would work. On the US side, about 25-50ft back, an 8ft fecnce with the rolls of razor wire like you see at a prison.

Even if you did not do that/to those who claim that it is too dangerous to build, I would think an M-1 Abrams or two in overwatch would provide adequate security................

Would that be cool and unusual?

That sounds expensive, what with the fences. Did you mean concertina? Fougasse?



Air Cav?








Carry on.

BD


PS: That handsome devil with the 'stache was one of my co-conspirators. I wouldn't turn him loose unless you're really, really serious.

PS: I'm just trying to stir up chitt.


PPS: Sorta.

Well we all know you can't trust anyone who is from Washington.

You Dan??? Stir the pot? Say it ain't so.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch,,,someone please pull Gene out of the centerline of the fuggin river? Thx in advance.

Having read this whole thread, I am amazed at some of the comments from people that should know better.
No wall no matter where it is, how high or how long is going to stop people crossing the border. they will go over, under, or thru the wall. Starting a war with Mexico, ain't the answer either.
Standing firmly behind the law is the only answer to our border problem, and you all know that's not going to happen. I suggest you all learn to speak Spanish, your going to Need it. Rio7

Oh. feel free to do so, Jefe'



PARTICULARLY if it was in reference to running the Feds offa' the Coronado Monument, with their half azzed display of rusty armor, and emplacing L40 Bofors guns there, in their "Interperative Center's" place.

Hell,...that's been entered into Arizona's Senatorial minutes for years now.

....and it's still a pretty damned good idea.

The heavily armored animatronic Chupacabras ?

I dunno',...

GTC

Walk or swim, it still creates a choke point.

I love it when the playground started debating who is a yankee..weren't Yankees taking down the Bars & Stars.

Bullchitt.

1. Repeal the Posse Comitatus Act, or ignore it by executive order, and station the Army along the Mexican border, with authorization and means to take preemptive violent action. Individual immunity from civil action.

2. No hearings, no lawyers, no judges, no Due Process, for those caught in the act of unlawfully crossing the border. Broad discretion for the Army to say what "the act of crossing" entails.

3. Detention camps at the border for those caught crossing the border. Detainees forced to walk across the border into Mexico under the supervision of the Army each morning until the camp is empty. Including unaccompanied children. Begin again.

4. American activists protesting at the border to be swept up into the camps and forced to walk into Mexico. Presumptive waiver of all Constitutional rights.

One comment...one question.

More than half of the illegal immigrants in the country got here legally, but stayed when their pass expired.

What did we do in 1924?

I think that YOU better keep your half baked nonsense in Indiana, Pal,....and let resident Border folks, who have a clue configure the plan.

Repeal Posse Comitatus in your own backyard,....

not mine.

GTC

How's that been working?

It wouldn't take anything extreme...just different. The United States Government has done very little to curb illegal immigration in the past 25 years, and everything to encourage it in the past several. I would encourage people to look past the border. Illegals don't come to America to be near the border.

You, Mister are the CLASSIC example of our theorum that proximity to the Mexican Border induces ignorance, and that only DISTANCE from that border can provide any concise clarity, or understanding of the situation there.

How's that HIV from shared needles in your "rural Heartland" working out, azzwhole ?

.....something you might be better placed / situated to be stickin' your fascistic martial law oriented nose into,

....what ?

GTC

Yep, no argument there.

Pat, they're coming to my courtroom. Every year, I have to deal with more illegal immigrants, and maybe some of them slipped past Crossfire's property on their way to Flyover Country.

Government has been failing to deal with this. Crossfire and his border neighbors may think they're filling in the gaps somehow, but based on what I'm seeing in MY courtroom, he's not being effective. His neighbors are not being effective.

Ineffective government. Ineffective citizens. If anybody thinks the illegal immigration situation is going to CHANGE without massive and alarming alterations to the way we've been living in this country, he's kidding himself.

See my response to Pat.

Take away the incentives, welfare, and jobs. Then use electronics to monitor traffic. Put up an electronic laser fence zap whom ever tries to cross.

You wouldn’t be talking about way up where I live would you? Like when BP set up a road block for an hour near Port Townsend WA a few years back and caught seventy some illegals from south of the border.

Another white flag from the Lone Star State.




Travis

Sorry but that is a can of worms we DON"T want opened.

Well sure. Illegals don't come across to live under an overpass in Laredo and wait to get deported. There is money to be made in gringo America and once they get several hundred miles from the border, deportation is a non-issue.

You don't think America has been invaded?

Watch what happens over the next few months in Europe, where they are not using their armies to control their borders. Europeans think like you do.

Several, like twenty some had felony warrants pending. I have no doubt they are still out there somewhere in the US.

The Posse Comitatus act was not an issue in 1916.

THANK YOU!

Out of it all came the National Defense Act of 1916.

No thanks to Woody Wilson.

Travis, For a little TWERP!! with a penis fixation,you wouldn't make a pimple on a South Texas, Ranchers ASS! Take your white flag and stick it where the sun don't shine. [bleep] Rio7

Our founding fathers had great foresight in enumerating the ways to control government power in the interest of protecting individual liberty and freedom.

Its simplistic to think that providing expedience to the military and law enforcement by eliminating those safeguards will solve the problem. The reality is we already have the laws and means to defend our boarder, what we lack is the will!

You let the military and police run roughshod, they'll run rough shod over everyone. Classic examples, war on drugs and Homeland security. Neither of which have achieved their stated goals, and both of which have turned us closer to the police state our founding fathers fought and died to protect us from.

This plus our military is not trained for law enforcement.

This is a law enforcement problem right now and unless we invad Mexico it will remain a law enforcement issue. Before anybody jumps me for that last comment I am not in favor of the US going to war with Mexico.

Key in on the Law enforcement issue. Those in charge of our borders have had their hands tied by those in Washington. It is an almost complete lack of enforcement or even the desire for the problem to go away that has caused the mess we have today. The problem will only get worse as long as our leaders sit on their hands and do nothing. Lets put the blame where it belongs. Generations of our elected leaders have done nothing. I really don’t see that changing.

DD is an Azhole, Scott, but a good Azhole, huh?

I spent an number of hours with Dan and hope to get to spend more in the future.

You know, you just MAY be close to getting onto something,....and are just having a hard time, valiantly trying to pull your head out of your nether orfice , Indie.

How be we make "alarming and massive changes" in the way MEXICANS have been living in THEIR country,..... first ?

Kid around a bit with that, and get back to us.

GTC

I'm not disagreeing with your "police state" thingee, but you're blaming the wrong people. Before the "War on Drugs" people went to prison for having them. The "War on Drugs" meant that people were no longer proscecuted for being criminals...they were treated like victims. The same has happened with the "War on Terrorism". The government has taken more action to protect the criminals then the people they are hurting. Same goes for illegal immigration.

Bullsh.it

So, you don't think it would be better if people went to prison for committing crimes, were deported for being here illegally and killed for being enemies of the country? You prefer felons to be arrested 40 times before seeing prison for the first time, illegal immigration encouraged and terrorists given the same rights as Americans?

Pat,

I'm not blaming the cops, they generally do the best they can and get screwed from both ends. Prosecutors and judges that won't/can't put away scum bags, and elected officials that won't stand behind cops.

As I've said before, it is a war on drugs, identify the enemies and kill them. That is a war.

Maybe I'm an idealist but I believe police can do good police work without trampling on peoples rights. Put together a solid case for the prosecutors, prosecute them, and lock them up. That does require the support of local governments, and the courts doing there job when the police have done theirs.

The rise in the use no knock warrants and seizing assets to fund police departments has done nothing to "win the war" but it has caused some peoples rights to be unnecessarily violated.

As kaywoodie pointed out, next year is the 100th anniversary of the US Army under the leadership of Blackjack Pershing (and the junior leadership of that great American, George S. Patton) riding roughshod over and back across the American border, putting the jackboot to a bunch of Mexicans and bringing peace and tranquility to more than a few South Texas ranchers.

Guess there weren't many libertarians among the South Texas ranchers in those days.

Edited to add: And the New Mexican ranchers. Didn't mean to leave them out.

And that worked so well for us elsewhere, didn't it?

Fixing Mexico is beyond our means and ability. What ever is wrong with Mexico is wrong because the Mexican people have made it that way. Not the US.

We wall them off, or we give up.

Start by giving anyone that hires an employee for more than 40 hours of labor without verifying their documents a mandatory night in jail, second offense- 30 days in jail, third offense- 6 months and if they do it more times than that a felony with 1 year minimum for each illegal they hire. Then give those illegals who perpetrate social assistance program fraud 6 months in jail before deportation in Sheriff Joe's tent jail. The wall will help, tough to drive a semi full of drugs and illegals across the border if there is a functional wall, but other measures will be needed too.

How about confiscating and selling off the pickup trucks of every independent roofer who hires a crew of illegals at a Walmart?

Wow, a long meandering thread. Build a "high tech" fence and keep them out.
Get immigration back to some semblance of an orderly process.
Its obvious none of the Dems or enough of the Repubs want to do it.
So, who does that leave the job to?

Follow the money and you will find it leads back to Washington.

We can't fix the border, we can't fix the sovereignty of this nation till we fix Washington.

All three branches of the .gov need a thorough cleaning and placed back in proper order before anything more than lip service happens on all the other issues that stare us in the face.

Iirc, we've done that about 14 times since JFK.

I will add in 1916 the American people expected military intervention for their protection along the border. There were US Troops and National Guard units stationed from the Gulf to the Arizona border. It was a different time. The Indian wars were still a very distinct memory in the minds of individuals from Fort Stockton to Yuma.

Did the punitive expedition achieve any goals? Well yes it did. While they did not accomplish their primary mission with the capture of Pancho Villa they did deplete his ability to field a large and threatening force ever again, with the ruination of his bandit army and depletion of his officer corps. Also it gave US Forces needed experience for its entry into the Great War. It showed Imperial Germany that we were a nation not to be taken lightly. On a political front it led Carrenza to begin talks with the U.S. And for his eventual dismissal of support for the plan of San Diego.

Those were different times and the idea of "rules of engagement" translated to high enemy body count.

Somebody has to build and maintain a physical barrier. Otherwise it stays a "free-for-all" with sanctuary cities and politicians who want to appease.

I still like Bristoe's idea for sanctuary cities!

It doesn't have to be an actual wall.

Federal military control of the border (which I believe is what an army is supposed to do), suspension of federal funds to sanctuary cities (go, Donald), a serious change in the nature of civil immigration removal proceedings and very real, very serious economic harm to those American citizens who traffic in illegals. There's a start.

Look, even the Mexican government admits there are about 30 million Mexican nationals living unlawfully in the US. I want them all to go away, and I think you do, too. I also want to keep all 30 million of them from coming back. I think you, do, too.

Question is, are we willing to accept what kind of people WE have to become to make that happen?

"And I really doubt I branded you anything like that. I know it would not bother me in the least forcing Mexico to have the fence inside their border by more than just a bit. It seems to me I am on your side and I find myself at a loss just why that pisses you off."

Go back and read your asinine post which I responded to.




Then go to hell.

I haven't said a GD thing about "fixing" Mexico, Indie, and could really care less.

You naturally slow on the uptake, or just obstinately DUMB ? .... I GAF.

Okay, one more try here, Black Jack,.... let me re-phrase

How be we make "alarming and massive changes" in the way MEXICANS have been living in a 25 mile deep DMZ in THEIR country, below our LINE,..... first ?

WTF is your problem with THAT ?

and WTF is up with your endless and whiny litany about what worked elsewhere, whenever ?

GTC

You are so damned ignorant of the border issues that you apparently don't know that wetbacks are the property of the Federal Government. If YOU trespass on a border ranch, the rancher can apprehend you and call the Sheriff to come get YOU.

If he detains a trespassing wetback and calls the Sheriff, the Border Patrol shows up and takes HIM to jail.

You expect Texans to fight the Cartels AND the Federal Gov't while you man your keyboard, pumping out solutions for a place where you wouldn't last a week.

It's hard for y'all to grasp the truth of the matter which is that we prefer the company of HONEST Mexicans to 95% of you yankees.

Is inheriting land in a schit hole strenuous? Seems pretty easy to me.



Travis

Isn't that near Dallas?



Travis

Just WTF are we PAYING through the goddam nose for, at this time ?

.....This "Border Patrol" outfit, I mean ?

Do you have any CLUE as to what sorta' "military presence" they represent here on a day to day basis ?

Do you have any CLUE as to how phargged up their "control" of this line is, and WHY it is such ?

Doesn't seem so,....your formula seems to be just add more of exactly the SAME.

Not saying your heart's in the wrong place, Bud,...

and I thank you for your passion.

I for one will PASS on your martial law fantasy.

Yankee, huh? Epic failure on your part, if only by an entire lineage and better than 400 years.

It's obvious you're given up.

That's disappointing, but it what it is.

Next?

Sounds like the Cartels pay well enough to buy Tejicans.

Perhaps we should look at that fence along the Red River. Maybe Oklahomans don't sell themselves so cheap.

Practicing my spanish with this white flag sticking out my ass SUCKS.

But hey, Tejas knows best.



Travis

I thought I made it clear from the Git-Go that ALL my comments dealt with the 1200 mile long Texas/Mexico Border,aka the Rio Grande, and the impossibility of fencing down its center.

Have you seen ONE post that proposes just exactly HOW to build that fence?

No..... you will see smart-assed comments, pictures of NYC and the Great Wall of China, and plenty of insulting remarks about Texas, but not a single response to the premise of the thread.

You know that this is a VERY valid point, 4 ?

SUPREMELY valid, in point of fact.

You seem overly comfortable with expectation of "Above and Beyond" from folks in the very THICK of things. HYPER critical of their failure to deliver goods to your SPEC. as it were.

....maybe it's just that MAGIC understanding of the situation on the line that you folks living miles therefrom that I lack.

Sorry we're not living up to Virginia and Indiana standards,....I'll try to boot everybody in the azz and get em' to try harder.

GTC

How to build it?

Easy... Hire f'king engineering contracting firms like Halliburton who are in the business of figuring schit out and have them figure schit out.

It's a f'king fence. They are building one for the Saudis to keep ISIS out. They build deep sea drill rigs. They build all kinds of schit. I figure they can figure out how to build a f'king fence.

The fence is PART of the solution, but one that is clearly too onerous for Tejicans to imagine, so they never even look at the other parts.

There's a hint there.

Hey buster, that's Azhole' to you.

This is about Mexico. Learn the language, hey?

Ease up there partner, I ma just having some fun.

US Census "states" that there are 40 million immigrants in US with "about" 10-12 million illegals. Highest population is 27% in CA.. Next was NY at 22% and NJ at 21%. Lowest percent for WV at 1.7%

The Center for Immigration Studies analyzed the data and said, among other things that: "absent any policy change, look for immigration to increase at a very high level".

Its doubled since 1990 and tripled since 1980.

And here, I forgot it was Taco Tuesday and I had a BLT for supper!

Link: http://www.newsmax.com/InsiderReport/Immigrant-Population-All-Time-High/2011/11/13/id/417827/

The current system is broken by design. The leadership and higher ups in the cartels have always spent quite a LOT of their time living in the U S of A. Fences and walls are useless when they can just use the border crossing like everyone else. For all the supposed conservatives that inhabit this place to not see that the federal gov't is just as inept running the border as everything else it touches is hilarious.

The thing that scares me is all the Arab refugees that are legally coming over the last several years. They haven't been vetted very carefully and this will create many problems in the future. Some of the south east and South Asian Muslim refugees who are also legally coming over are much more radical than the Arabs. There is a reason why the countries they originate from are encouraging them to leave....

With Tejicans like this, it's no damned wonder a quarter of the state is de facto Mejico and the state politically will go D within a decade or so.

"Don't mess with tejas...unless we're on the border, and you're a cartelista... Then you can just pay us to be your bitch and we'll whine really loud if someone wants to build a fence and cut off your illegal activities and our money..."

JFC.

Check the Red River for fence options. Oklahomans might not be so cheap...

We are loosing our culture from within and being invaded at the same time.
If you like your Country, you can keep it..................?

Thus, the multi-faceted approach to fixing the situation, but the Tejicans want no part of it.

"Hint" ?

Oh, I get it,...this is a GAME SHOW !

This is a pretty important thread, and one that resonates among more than a few friends here..

I really wouldn't have expected this sorta' horsechit from you,...it's a bit disappointing.

HINT ?

Smug, smarmy, self righteous, CHICKESH,.... for starters.

Don't HINT, Sean,....WTF is it EXACTLY that you have on your mind, and are trying to say here ?

GTC

You "figure" wrong. There are some things which are impractical. Then some things which are impossible. But I'm speaking of the real world.

In your fantasy land,if you can spell it... count it done.

OK, went back and read my post. I have never said anywhere we should build a fence down the middle of the river. Some may have said so but not I. Nor do I remember saying about not protecting our borders, or calling anybody names for saying so. We are on the same side if you will look an my posts and pull the burr off your saddle blanket.

And don't take to much pride, you are not the first to call me a Damnedyankee, you are just the first to say it and not piss me off.

This is a macro-economic problem as well as a political and practical problem on the macro level. The solution will be as difficult to endure as it will be as difficult to sell to the populace. All business and political interests will be against any change to the status quo.

Good luck to the candidate that can make the most persuasive argument for the necessary change.

Scott!!! Hey you can take down that tag line now! 4 says I'm now not bona fide either. !

Well I can say this. There is not a damn thing I can do about any of this. Call the 911( if call will go thru) when we find Pedro and Inez there barefoot and thirsty on the place. Give em a bottom of water and wait for em to come get picked up. And VOTE when time rolls around. But my crippled azz has one good fight left in it and I'm saving it for the right time.

And that's just about all I can do.

I will close with some lines of Schiller "it is not up to me to decide the fate of Kings."

I've already stated that it's a multi-faceted problem that will take a multi-pronged approach and discussed several ways to do certain parts of it.

All I am hearing from Tejicans is that a fence won't/can't work, that it's too dangerous, that it will cost too much, that it will take too long...basically every excuse in the book to NOT try anything.

Impossible and impractical seem to only happen when a Tejican is involved.

Again, perhaps it's best to look at the Red River as a practical boundary, as I don't think Oklahomans are as easy to quit.

You're saying that an entire engineering firm like Halliburton who can figure out deep sea drilling, a fence along the entire Saudi border, desalination plants, and friggin' space exploration can't figure out a damned fence in tejas?

Bull.Schit.

What you're saying is that tejicans lack the will to even try.

NO.... What you did was jump on Sean's little bandwagon.

He couldn't hack it as a Marine.Never served out his hitch.

He couldn't hack it as a Lawyer even after getting his degree.

This forum is all he's got. Between his first incarnation as VANimrod and his current "4Ager" handle he holds the record for most posts on here.

And the majority of them are streaming insults at people who he knows he will never meet.

Y'all deserve each other.

He deserves you.

According to Tejicans, this nation... The one that built railroads across the entire continent, the one that dug the Panama Canal, the one that fought WWII in Europe and Asia simultaneously, the one that figured out manned flight, the manned space flight, then put a man on the moon and brought them back alive, in addition to all the other accomplishments over a little better than 200 years...

Can't figure out how to build a damned fence?

Maybe Tejicans have a low opinion of themselves and what the U.S. is capable of accomplishing, but I'm glad that many of the rest of us don't hold that opinion.

"that it's too dangerous,"

Point out who said THAT.

Or be proven a LIAR.

Gene,

I broke my damned legs up in the Corps. Medical discharge. One doesn't exactly "go for" one of those, and they damned sure aren't intended.

You just stopped to an all time low level, even for a Tejican.

No damned wonder the cartels had such an easy time buying off Tejicans. You're showing how quickly you'll turncoat, and over/for how little.

I used to think relatively highly of you. I was wrong. It ain't the first time I've been wrong, but it will be the last time when it comes to you.

The "plomo o plata" offers as to whether to do business (be bought by) cartels or not. Several have posted what "business" is like on the border, old man, and their words are there if you look.

You won't, and as you've said before - you've lived too long.

You do realize that you are saying Halliburton can build a 1200 mile fence down the MIDDLE of a free flowing river.

Don't you?

Or... are you doing your patented shuck and jive deflection bullshiit like you did with Birdwatcher?

You phony son of a bitch.

I'm done with you.

Didn't say down the middle, you stupid old bastard. Your reading comprehension sucks.

I said their side or ours, and gave ideas as to either.

You're right - you have lived too long.

It is easier than you think to solve this mess. Put a sign all the way down the fence that is electrified with 2,000,000 volts that says welcome to Mexico. The Mexicans that can read will turn around and head back in a stupor. The illiterate ones will end up like a fly in a bug zapper.

Then you take all the border patrol agents to Washington and tell them that the democrats are illegal immigrants and before you know it, America will be just like it was in the 1950's...

That's evil.

We could be best buddies!

BD

A good start would be not funding the "solutions" nor the reasons why criminals are welcomed....that racketeering and laundering gig should go first; but people like the teet too much, even when the milk is poisonous....

No, that is not at all what happened. He and I are friends but what I have posted here on this subject are my thoughts and not influenced by his comments in any way. And when it comes to service I did 24 years, that was long enough for several of us and I suffer every day far things that happened on active duty. Sean is man enough to stand on his own two feet and does not need any help from me.

Once again, I am on your side and have no beef with you in any way. I really don't know why you are upset with me.

Drat, and here I thought we on to something.

To deny the effectiveness of a fence/wall is to deny history, since they have been effective every where they have been implored. A fence/wall will slow th illegal alien flow from Mexico to a trickle and a bit of enforcement will slow the flow even more. The Russians built the wall in Germany and its effectiveness is well documented. Military's use fences to slow down attackers and they are effective.

A drivable tunnel was built under the English Channel, they can dam sure build a fence/wall along the border.

For years, you've been dropping hints that you and people you know in the neighborhood are doing what you can to ... well, it's hard to say exactly what it is you're doing because you don't go into details, but it seems to involve telling people from outside the border country to stay away and let the locals handle things.

Handle what? WTF knows, because you never say. You're what, in your 60s now? I suppose you could thump an illegal pretty good if you took one by surprise, but what ever general good you think you're doing for yourselves - you and the rest of the border crew - in terms of "handling" things on the border is of no apparent value to any of the rest of us.

Hence, my belief that you and everybody else along the border should not be encouraged to handle things the way you have (actually) not been handling things.

From my perspective, there's a problem on the border that effects ME, and you're just standing in the way.

"they can dam sure build a fence/wall ALONG the border."

Of course a fence can be built ALONG the border. You can build it ON the border, except for where the border is a river.

Which is over half of the border.

The Devil is in the details.

Build a fence on the North side of the river, and we would be giving the River and substantial land to Mexico. And the infrastructure we would have to build to service and guard the fence/wall would destroy the ecology. Of course, that infrastructure would make it much easier on the wetbacks that DO manage to get past the fence.

The only ones who keep calling for a wall/fence are those who have no familiarity with the Trans Pecos.Even self absorbed idiots like a couple posting on this thread would shut up about building a fence/wall IF THEY EVER ACTUALLY SPENT ANY TIME DOWN THERE.

Until Politicians and Media talking heads are required to address the REAL reasons our "immigration system" is broken, they will continue to chant "BUILD A FENCE".

Then; "I'll build a wall and make Mexico pay for it".

Anybody who falls for that B.S. is stupid as an Obama voter.

Greg noticed this phenomenon many moons ago:

"The further one lives from the border, the more knowledgeable he becomes about the border."

yup the only way it would work, would be to put it on the mescan side.

Piers can certainly be installed in the middle of the river if that is what is warranted and the wall built on top of them close enough to the water to make crossing more difficult.
Our immigration system is only broken as you call it because we do not in force our laws and we hand out free [bleep] to people that not only haven't earned but also broke the law.

Half right, I think.

Employment is not the issue, sez I. We--or at least I--want as many Mexicans working in the US as we can get. If you're an able-bodied American, and you can't compete economically with a poverty-stricken, non-English-speaking, uneducated Mexican, then you need to be the one solving that problem, not the government.

Matter of fact, I say repeal the minimum wage completely. If a $3/hr Mexican can do the job of a $300K robot, then that's one happy Mexican and fifty years of lower prices for me. (More, if you count power and upkeep for the robot.) Where's the downside?

The problem is not employment, the problem is welfare--including free health care. Get rid of that, and the problem goes away. Lots of problems go away.

You don't have Mexicans out committing crimes, because it takes a lot of hours at $3/hr to feed them and their families. No time for anything but working, eating and sleeping. You don't have mass illegitimacy in the black inner cities, because former welfare queens can no longer support fifteen kids without a husband. (Or even with a husband. Fifteen kids are expensive.) You don't have teenagers idly hanging around on the streets looking for trouble--or even veging out on the couch playing video games--because A) their families need income from them to survive, and B) without a minimum wage, there's a good chance they can get a job making a decent chunk of change even without any skills or education.

As usual, the solution to this particular set of social problems is not new laws, not enforcement of existing laws, but repeal of existing laws. The vast majority of social problems in the world are caused by laws and politicians: more laws and more politicians always make things worse, not better.

^

THAT'S my O.P.

How many REASONED comments did it generate?

My very first comment about my front yard being secure WITHOUT a fence should have prompted some thought.

Derision is NOT commentary.

Crossfire and I became old men by the simple expedient of not dying. It's a mathematical probability that Tim and 4Ager will share that same fate.

Crossfire and I escaped being young idiots by being exposed to old guys who knew how to build stuff and fix things. We learned how to learn.

Unless THEY learn how to learn, 4Ager and Tim will likely become old idiots.

I got stuff to do outdoors.

Every time I read "DOWN THE MIDDLE OF A RIVER..." I hear Matt Foley's voice.




Travis

Yeah right.





Dave

building a fence?

Shouldn't you be on ANOTHER fuuckin' vacation or is next week PTO?





Burned you, you lazy mofuucker!

I'll probably take another break when bird season starts.






Clark

BUUUUUUUURRN!





Travis

Impossible.





Travis

Oh I'm sure you will!

2,000 miles of Border.

Pair of boots on the ground every quarter mile - 8,000 people.

Times three shifts - 24,000 people.

Associated support staff - 75,000 people.

If a nation of 300 million plus cannot field a force of around 100,000 people we might as well hang it up.

Birdwatcher

two shifts

We only need one 'roamer' on the northern border... for appearance sake...

Kent

From 1919



Interestingly the army stayed on the border until 1922-23

Wow! They even drew in a Narco hacienda in the background....

The border will never be secure until Mexico buys into preventing illegal entry into the U.S. They can travel from the Gulf of Mexico to the Pacific and launch an illegal entry anywhere they find a soft spot.

The only way that we can slow the influx is to removed the economic incentives to come here. We need to be hard-asses: prosecute ad incarcerate those who employ illegals and deny anyone who is undocumented free medical care, unemployment benefits and other support services. Until we do those things, we are kidding ourselves.

^

Four shifts to allow for time off, but 25% more is still not that much.

There are lots of easy answers, but the one that nobody wants to address is who pays for it. When I started my career in LE, over three decades ago, every illegal alien we encountered was summarily picked up by Immigration and deported. Then the BP funding was cut and they started asking us to hold them in our local jail (which costs money)and they would send a bus, once a week, to pick them up. Shortly thereafter, they asked us to hold them, but would only deport those who had committed felonies or had been deported before. Then we were told to only hold those who had been arrested for felonies (which we obviously did anyway) and they would eventually pick them up. Then we were told to give them a call when we had an illegal felon in custody and get a good address for them in case they needed them after they were released.

My point is that the logistics are easy, secure the border and deport illegal aliens.

Now...realistically...where do you get the money? Social security? (It's biggest form of "welfare" out there.)

as noted, an approach reflecting a COMPLETE lack of familiarity with the topography, hydrology, and available infrastructural shortfalls.

INDUSTRIALIZING the Trans Pecos is not the objective. Juan and Maria no longer struggle through desert , packing a humble tortilla in a simple cloth sack,....they come to the U.S. on busses and airplanes now, we're tying to stop HOSTILE incursion for crap's sake.

GTC

Well, sorry, Pal, but that requires an escalation in return fire that I really would prefer to avoid,....BUT,....

Your idyllic "Rural Indiana, green verdant fields of corn, waving gently in the warm Summer breeze, while healthy Sun bronzed stalwarts toil happily after a nice breakfast of pancakes and sorghum .... ......etc", is the F**ckin' MYTH here, Mister.

This border's been a tough and lawless place for a LONG time, moreso now than ever before now. The fact that large areas still exist and are maintained more or less traffic free is in large part due to the efforts of Joe Citizen,....not any .Gov military effort.

Your MYTH is at this time a burgeoning population of sick HIV positive middle aged druggies, with elderly / aging pill seller parents.....WEANED on Mexican dope, and now requiring an emergency legislative action allowing a free needle exchange,.....and clinics (no DOUBT tax $$ funded) to treat their "illness."

You need to get your azz down here and VISIT, before throwing rocks into other folk's back yard, Mister.

How be you get your Governor to declare martial law regarding whole TOWNS fulla dope traders / prescription drug sellers, and when the FEDS come in and shut his initiative down, try and get your brain around what's happened down here in that regard.



Your providing a smoking hot marketplace for Mexican dope, and failure to "do something", up there in the land of little white picket fences and scenic church steeples, is of "no apparent value" to the average border resident, Sir.

It is YOUR population that seems to be the problem, when viewed in a clear and honest light.

GTC

OK I read every word. I get it, no fence. Then what do we do. Are we going to mine the border including down the middle of the river? Are we going to stand shoulder to shoulder along the border including down the middle of the river and shoot every man woman or child that shows up? What do we do?

In my posts above I set out my thoughts on stopping the flood of illegals. It did include a fence on the Mexican side but I admit I could be wrong. I also included stopping the free stuff and punishments for hiring.

Now I admit, I have never even seen a border crossing. So, I would know nothing about the subject living so far up north. So I am waiting for the solution form those who know. Edgumicate this stupid yankee. (I may have lost the Damnedyankee title but I read the definition or Yankee and I was born and now live north of the Mason Dixon Line and so qualify)

Thus,....





This one's a REAL peach



I'm making a VERY valid point here, and regret any ruffled feathers incurred.

GTC

Ben, and stop most of the welfare for American Citizens. All of it for able bodied people that can work. This means that if you can sit at a desk and work, even though you can do manual labor, you still have to support yourself. miles

1600 miles and completed in under a year:

Bit of a JIVEY reply, Scott

......have you retained / remembered NOTHING of the proposals to push a DMZ into Mexico,....

discussed for HOW bloody long here ?

By how bloody MANY of us ?

GTC

Conceptual is for leaders.

Technical is for workers.

The incapable are easily replaced.

Go Trump.




Dave

Another little project that couldn't be done.

In my posts in the beginning of this thread I did say a wall with a DMZ on the Mexican side giving up not even one square inch of US soil or river bottom. So, yes I remember it well.

I even know a little of the fence in CA as my baby boy was the project manager in charge of build a big piece of the road on our side.

Hence, my confusion and a bit of disappointment as well.

Who says the fence has to be an imposing structure in the first place?

Taking advantage of pinch points , patrolling the river if possible . Lookout towers

Look, the argument that an illegal alien can walk into this Country, obtain legal and political jurisdiction and grant US citizenship for their children is insane.
Go Trump.

I'm shocked this thread turned tits up....just shocked.

STATE (not Fed.) managed

* Light and Medium Artillery,.....PRE-REGISTERED, where feasible.

* A-10 s standing by, if things go really stupid.

* WATER BOMBERS,......

.....I could go on.

GTC

If you push ten miles into Mexico and build one, then at least we can fish Falcon and Amistad without being molested by Federales in gunboats or Rurales and kidnapped or shaken down.

A wall by itself is useless, the Chinese knew this 700 years before Christ. To fortify/defend anything, takes 4 basic steps.

1 - Deter
2 - Detect
3 - Delay
4 - Respond

A all all by itself is step 3 only, simple as that. Until you can ensure you have the other 3 steps, a wall is a waste of money.

After reading this entire thread I can only conclude that the OP meant to post it in some private sub-forum only accessible to those from SW border states.

It was quickly made clear that no outside opinions were necessary even though certain SW border state parties were quite free with their opinion on locales outside of their area of first hand knowledge.

More division of Americans from within, I guess.

Abolish 'any' government handouts for illegals. Period. Tell Mexico...and mean it... that if 'they' allow a single illegal to cross the border into this country, that they (Mexico) will receive zero American dollars from our government for that year.

I was on a Navy base that had some security. When the SEALS pulled a practice raid the were apprehended within ten minutes.

There is a fair sized compound on that base that has two tall fences with razor wire on top of both fences. White gravel covers all the ground between the fences. Proximity sensors every thirty feet. Mines under the pretty white gravel. Skull and crossbones signs posted all around stating use of deadly force is authorized at all times. If you even walk up to within say fifty feet of the outside fence vibration sensors let security know.

It is possible to secure a site if you really want to. In my opinion no one in Washington wants to.

So after reading this entire thread, I think I get curdog's point.

It's too difficult to change Texas, so the rest of the US has to change.

Got it.

Combine potential solutions
1. build a damn wall
2. put Piranhas in the damn river for Curdog
3. anyone who hires illegals spends 3 years in prison tossing Tyrone's salad.
4. control electronic transfer of funds to Mexico.
5. require voter I.D.
6. No form of welfare for illegals.

Lots of ways to solve problems, what is lacking is the leadership and national will to do so.

This is a national problem, you don't have to live in a specific location to recognize this.


Some people take this crap too seiously.


mike r

you get it

My point was that as long as you folks who do not know the geography of the Trans-Pecos - AND THAT INCLUDES A MAJORITY OF TEXANS - accept the premise that a WALL/FENCE goes a long way toward solving the border security problem, NOTHING will change.

Everything that needs to be done to fix this complex problem has been pointed out in this thread. And not by me.

TALK ABOUT A FENCE has sucked all the air out of the debate room for years. So there is no sustained discussion of...

Punish employers of illegals.... yep.

End Sanctuary cities........ yep

End 'catch and release'..... yep

and on and on......

Any border rancher, like RIO7, can distinguish between a "Juan looking for work" and a " Pedro the narco" at a glance. But the Feds treat them both the same.

How often do you hear a meaningful discussion of the "OTM's" when the border is discussed?

You don't.

And as long as Trump can stay at 25% in the polls by saying"I'll build a fence and make Mexico pay for it", there will be ZERO pressure on D C to do a damn thing about securing the border.

And that, my friend, is the point of this thread.

And I'm pretty sure you already knew it.

"2. put Piranhas in the damn river for Curdog"

That's my hunting pard's Lab. And that far bank is Mexico.
I doubt the little fish would stay on their side of the river. Your other suggestions have merit.





And how deep a water do the little fishes need?



Again... halfway to the far bank is Mexico.

But a couple times a year, the water is twenty feet deep in this spot. Lots of big old trees floating down the middle.

Teamsters?

We will breed shallow water,gps enabled, spanglish speaking Piranhas.

A few labs is a small price to pay to protect the people of America.



mike r

Bro', D.C. hasn't done Jack $ch!t about securing the border FOR DECADES...before Trump ever even entered the picture...! It seems more than a little bit far from the truth to think that 'he' is keeping something positive from happening regarding D.C. doing something to secure the border.

No... of course he is not to blame. But HE is the one with the megaphone right now.

SOMEONE just needs to ask him which side of the River he will build his wall on every time he makes his border speech.

And insist that he answer the question.

That could prompt a discussion and reveal the ineptitude of the PTB.

You probably don't know what I do for a living, and assuming that you don't care, I won't bore you. We're not talking about dope coming across the border in this thread. We're talking about tens of millions of Mexican people, who come here and don't leave.

My disagreement with you is not what you are doing to help yourself, but your resistance to the idea that because you don't, won't, can't do anything to help me, I am, in my own modest way, going to do what I can to help myself by working to drop a couple of hundred thousand regular US army combat troops and support personnel on your neighborhood, together with all the uproar that implies.

No to help you, but to help me. Your home, our border.

At no point in my comments did I say we couldn't build a fence on or near the border. A fence is just materials and labor, back years ago when the gov't started to talk about a fence on the border near here, they placed the cost at $8,000,000 a mile, as per spec's, having done a lot of fence building in my life time, I put the pencil to work and came up with a rough figure of $100 ,000 a mile for cost of a double fence 8'6" high with razor wire in the middle coiled to 8' high that included a right a way on the U.S. side of the fence not a finished road. I figured even with the payoff's to the local senators and reps, I would still make about $5,000,000 a mile.
I didn't want the whole job I just wanted to a contract at $8,000,000 a mile for 25 miles or so. well nothing ever came of it, the fence has never been built.
This year we built 27 miles of 8'6" fence, to replace a fence that was 30 yrs old, that had been climbed and cut down and run thru by Illegals, thousands of times, cost was a little over $15,000 a mile, materials and labor, with no gov't help. and it's a damn nice fence, hope it lasts 30 years. Oh we didn't inherit this ranch we bought it. kinda old fashioned, HUH ! Rio7

Jesus wept,....that's COY.

Were you hiding your face behind an Oriental fan, and fluttering your eyelashes at the screen while typing that ?

GTC

Quote

I am, in my own modest way, going to do what I can to help myself by working to drop a couple of hundred thousand regular US army combat troops and support personnel on your neighborhood, together with all the uproar that implies.

again,....Jesus wept.

GTC

Thanks. NGAF.

I think we're dealing with a chick, here,....if not, someone who sure knows how to act like one.

GTC

And yet you cared enough to write. That's nice.

Coy, chickesh, and intended from the get go to offend.

No, that happened later in the thread.

Just East of El Paso, in rural Hudspeth County, TX there is a bridge that crosses the Rio Grande.

It is unmanned and unchecked.

ANYONE can come or go at will.

http://www.cbsnews.com/pictures/along-the-border/

"Close the Border" means just that... Enforce our immigration laws in the courts, and give the enforcers in the field some teeth to bite with. Back them up in every way when they DO bite.

Back in the 'fifties you could walk across a footbridge at Boquillas with no guards on either side. It would get washed away most years and the locals from both sides would patch it back up.

Your...wherever.

Been there many times.

They got tired of messing with the bridge, and some enterprising folks got a few horses you can pay to ride across the river, and into Boquillas.

Been a long time since I was there, though.

I'm on your side Gene. Nobody here that isn't full on retarded, is suggesting actually building a wall down the center of a river. It's not that it can't be done. It's that it's stupid. The question is just whether to build one on this side or the other. My vote is the other. There are definitely ways to keep people out without a wall. I'm not sure that a wall is even needed. Corruption, not just on the physical border and amongst line BP agents, is definitely at the forefront of this issue. A wall is just a physical barrier that reminds all of us that this is OUR country and you don't come here without OUR say-so. A pity that last ain't been true for some time because our leaders have sold us out. I agree that no wall or increased presence is going to do a bit of good if the people in charge of watching the border are bought and paid for.

People don't like to spend money on fences...or prisons...or enforcement. The fix is easy. Paying for it...not so much.

How about a dome!!?? With a retractable roof.

I don't know, but you'll never hear a Politician saying we're going to have to cut Social Security to pay for it.

That's a scary thought. I dropped costs because it really doesn't matter. Something has to be built now.

But to your point...and you're scary right...what if they did take/justify 401's to fund security?

Annex?

When a Republican hears "raise taxes" or "cut social security" everything else is out the window. It's like saying "drug test" to a Democrat.

Where have we fought our wars? From the sands of Africa during WWII to Afghan and Iraq so IMO we need at least 3 major training sites aka military installations down on our southern border spaced out accordingly to train and at the same time render a vast 'stoppage' to border intrusion just by the sake of those military bases being used to train our troops and 'sack' illegals from coming into the country! Don't tell me it can't be done.....I know better!!

Don't forget cut public employee pentions.

Kent

That's a good idea...!

A lone fence would be useless; it can slow, but not stop border crossers.

The fence needs to be 1,989 miles long (US-Mexico border length) and needs to cover such vulnerable points as rivers, creeks drainage ditches etc. It will be VERY expensive, but even a 50' fence will result in 51 foot ladders. The border will need to be manned, probably at 100 foot intervals to stop individuals who make it through.

This would require about 105,020 manned posts (1,989 miles X 5280' / 100'). Assuming a standard security manning ratio of 4.5 per post (to account for week-ends, holidays, vacations, training time, etc.), this would require a Border Patrol of 475,590 men! What will this cost?

The current Federal civilian workforce is about 2.6 million; of this, the Border Patrol currently has about 20,000 officers. This means that the Federal civilian workforce will grow to about 3,1 million. How many more taxes will be required to pay for this?

.gov hath spoken...

Someone is gonna' come up with a giant bug zapper (not a bad idea) and that will be that. Gets ugly then.

Maybe they can sing red rover, red rover, send Pepe on over...

Kent

Look,.....the American "host" has spent a small FORTUNE on cancelled live fire exercises on the Barry Goldwater Range over the last 7-8 years, because of the "risk of hitting migrants".

Great stuff,....bombed up and gunned up aircraft flying over OUR residential areas,.....and landing "hot".

I'm OK with that, and will be the last to complain.

When one considers that at the same time that a "Gun Run" was being cancelled on BGR, USCBP were calling out high speed intrusions/ dope loads roaring and running up past Silverbell,...or had clearly IDENTIFIED "spotter hides" on the peaks, ....one has to wonder.

This mysterious Indiannan who thinks he's coy /cute /fetching, demure/ intriguing, and won't tell us what he does for a living ( I think he's an azzwhole, on that score, and KNOW what he does for a living FWIW) says this thread's not about drugs, and that we need Martial Law here.

I'll flex a bit, and back offa' the drugs issue, and fall back to my original premise .

This is about HOSTILE incursion,....NOT "Juan and Maria".

...and I'll tell ya,....at this point I'll guarantee that more Feds = more incursions



GTC

You're a [bleep] inside the beltway idiot, Mate.

GTC

I'd argue that people sure do, simply because they have been engrained to believe that the only ones who can "fix" it or mete out any form of justice are the creeps who created the situation in the first place, long after prevention had been paid for ten times over.

This isn't an issue strictly tied to the border....

2007

unpleasant to think about, but in the interest of American values, it would probably be better if our computer screens, CPUs, whatevers emitted some sorta' rotten smell, everytime DJS puts up a post.

....he's been posting the same defeatist crap forever,....

GTC

In this case, he's right. How is congress gonna pay for it? I'm all for it, but we have to consider reality also.

cross

I'm not talking about 'mom & pop' exactly but if they're in the group....and based upon what I'm about to type here....they might decide THEY don't need to wade the river! If we had a man in office with a REAL SET OF NUTS, one that wanted this schitt STOPPED BIG TIME, one that wouldn't tie the hands of our military...you give our men an order and a mission to stop the incursions and I'm a firm believer that our military would put a vast stoppage to what's been coming down the pike! Political correctness has to be abandoned and the ROE in favor of OUR SIDE!!

Good point and some do. But beyond the border.... folks feel it how? Aside from drugs of course. I see and lean more here regarding BP than anywhere else.

Not being cynical and I realize the importance of safe borders. However, lots and LOTS of folks in Virginia and the Carolina's do not. "Immigrants" in rafts aren't washing up on the shores of Myrtle and Virginia Beaches. Or maybe they are.

Diminishing/eliminating foreign aide is a damn good starter for the America First crowd.

By stopping ALL forms of welfare to ALL able bodied people who are receiving it.

Good idea. Where do your representatives stand on that?

Yup....


Its like saying no one can teach children, other than a "qualified" teacher. And they can't do their best teaching unless properly funded.

So many hearts of gold out there, all they need is the funds to bless us with good fortune and prosperity....

Where do your representatives stand on the issue?

The ones outside the Israel/Middle East/Africa lobby?

That 3% in NC came from SC when the vote favored to profile and herd certain illegal folks out of the state. More South America than Mexico.

Regardless, now they're gone and folks are complaining.

We had minimal problems but again people remote from the real storms only look beyond their schools and grocery stores. Even morose their own front porches.

I don't know. Whoever you guys sent to Washington. They are the one's you should be concerned about.

Understood. Only about half of America's illegal immigration is from Mexico. Other than an inconvenience, most don't cause that much of a problem on the border either. It's the bandidos from Mexico that prey on Americans that are the issue there.

Face it...everybody but the middle class wants them here.

"In 2012 the Obama administration spent $18 billion on immigration enforcement programs; more than the budget for all other federal law enforcement agencies that year combined."

Its designed for them NOT to feel it; but the piper will demand payment...

http://www.usdebtclock.org/

When Pedro, muslims and Africans show up not being able to communicate but having a Homeland Security card or a Mexican consulate resident card as ID along with all kinds of cash, maybe even Virginia Beach will know.

Odd, I see it every day, but I guess my eyes aren't closed.

Maybe at an elementary "Holiday" music event, it might register with anyone who isn't Mr. Magoo.....

No one in Virginia Beach notices an unemployed meth head buying $400 purses at the middle of the day at the mall? Showing up where you work?

The bottom line is that if you're a taxpayer with a job, you are funding your own demise, period. The agencies that you and others pay for to protect your borders, teach your kids are pretty much against you, simply based on the results.

I can't be any more blunt about it....

As Ron's already pointed out, there are HOLES in our "fence", concurrent and coordinated with USCBP "no go" zones,...whether from "ecological sensitivity" or "TOO DANGEROUS",....THAT is, and HAS BEEN the state of affairs here, for quite a while.

Over in Douglas, Agua Preitta, we find DOORS cut into the fence, with LOCKS installed, on the Mex. side

You've seen the vid of the "jack up" fence, .....that one's off to my West,....

The "National Guard" sent here COWERED under green tarps as cartelistas walked through their "positions"

ROEs do not have to be unmerciful,....

where a coupla' warning shots will suffice.

A muscle bound Guatemalan or Salvadoran 16 year old mule, covered with MS 13 tats is not a "Child" in my universe, and if you want to eschew warning shots, ....that's fine by me.

GTC

Depends on how much money gets donated and who donated to their campaign.

Hard for a guy to know, being they are all up front, good people....with long term visions.

I do know that some new suburbanites wanted to build a "water park" in town, but not to the point that they alone should pay for it. That's what voting is for....

Well...no argument from me. And that's about as blunt as I can be!

We do need to have the argument.....and its about funding.

Its amazing to me how I get my ass chewed about how much it costs to replace a 15 year old vehicle part but the same assclown can get fleeced for over 20 percent of his income, sight unseen, to import and fund an MS-13 member who drives a two year old Cadillac....

Seize all SS funds and do away with the system. Do away with the VA and all involved. Stop all welfare. Stop all Medicare and Medicare. Close all jails and prisons. Just execute all incarcerated. Stop paying the military. it is simple really.

Of course most people left to their own devices take care of those worth taking care of.
All else is a simple matter of eliminating waste, which some people are.

Of course its always better to kick the can down the road knowing someone else will be able to deal with it.

I don't know about you, but like most people I blow the next paycheck on beer and eat the months groceries in a day....because someone needs to be responsible and deal with real consequences.

The hell it isn't.

I imagine anyone with half a brain could figure out how to shuffle military resources from nonessential out of country to down on the border.

Kent

A manned post every 35 yards or so?

Depends on the nature of the terrain. Whatever the terrain I figure manned posts on an average of 440 yards. Detection would be their primary function as opposed to interdiction.

Spacing would be closer some places, further apart over the vast open spaces out West.

What's the point of detecting them, then?

No manned outposts...

tactical response teams.

Kent

Well, not watch towers spaced on the border... vantage points utilized obviously.

Kent

A good FO and some air support would be nice.

I'd settle for 3 jarheads and a 4 deuce as a start.

We could ramp it up from there when the coyotes start targeting the OP's.

Someone just has to give the order to take off the gloves and put on the brass knuckles.

Estimated cost is 140 billion over 20 years. My guess is that illegals easily make up that much of the 2.5 trillion spent on Social Security, medical and health care. The answer is easy. Implementing it, not so much. We are still a democratic republic, and as long as the States send screwballs to Washington it ain't gonna happen.

Some years back I did a little hangin' out with (at that time) State Senator Frank Antonori. Actually worked on his campaign for a while.

His views on surveillance / response parallel yours, Kent.

Had the formation of the Arizona State Guard not been obstructed and thwarted the application of his methodology would have been VERY effective, and founded on AFFORDABILITY, and practical personal experience in the field.

His book, “Roughneck Nine-One: The extraordinary Story of a Special Forces A-Team at War," is a worthwhile read.

GTC

Shoot the present occupants of the vantage points.

The longer this is debated, the harder it will be to implement.

WTF is it you don't understand about clear and prevailing evidence that J&M are FLYING in , and RIDING in,....no longer trekking across the frontier ?

Guess you're not going to tell us what you do for a living, either.

Carrying on a "debate" with you is like flirting with a Geisha girl.

GTC

Illegals cost the tax payer over 100 billion a year, about 3/4s of that by the state yaxpayer.

Start knocking that down by percentages and eventually, even if you only reduce illegals by 50% you will see a substantial improvement in savings, plus removing a high percentage criminal element.

Of course saying it won't be done doesn't mean it can't be done.

Kent

Of course it can be done. Is John McCain going to do it?

The costs keep snowballing as well. Increasing every year. Every day.

We don't need to be saying "Enough".

We need to be screaming it.

I don't know how the cartels can afford to have lookouts, run expensive, armored, weapon mounted, hightech, nightvision, highspeed blackout, across 100 miles of desert roads... it's got to cost them trillions.

And I don't know why a BP agent with a tahoe, glock, intermittent radio and two hours from backup can't sit in the road and yell stop at them...

Kent

Nope... I like Cruz but he isn't either.

Kent

Neither is Trump...by himself. That's my point, if they were all Cruz's and Trump's, it would be snap. It can happen, and hopefully it will, but "Make America Great Again" is just a photo negative of "Hope and Change". That's not a bad thing, but it is...what it is.

So this is a Trump thread?

I thought your point was funding... and then political will of implementation.

Kent

Build the wall... on Texas' Northern border

Actually, just build an Interstate highway along the border.. They come with fences on each side.

I realize you're trying to be funny, but I don't believe people understand the magnitude of the task being suggested. It would take many years just to gain viable access to most of the Rio Grand to begin construction of a wall, much less the construction itself. Can it be done? Sure. Do we have the political will? I doubt it.

Willing to do something about it is the catch 22.

Not all areas are conducive to a fence or wall. But, if willing, the border CAN be shut down effectively.

Yep.

But that's the point.

600 Billion and we're being invaded.
What/why are we paying for, seriously?

Texas has a barrier with the river, a phsical barrier is just a symbol and only as strong as enforcement.

Places in az could use a better symbol than a barber wire fence. But without enforcement any materials used would become salvage scrap for Beto with a torch.

Kent

It's a military funding issue not a SS funds issue.

Kent

To notify the local cavalry of course.

Also to compile detailed data on the number, nature and location of incursions so as to allocated said mobile cavalry posts more effectively.

Of course, all this wont happen without the political will, and as pointed out, funding.

Forgot the other thing people have suggested; go after all the Americans who hire 'em by the millions.

Birdwatcher