Originally Posted by varmintsinc
Boy lots of tight panties in here. MM has the best response so far, the one pulling the trigger is almost always the least experienced shooter, it is the spotters job to be ranging, reading wind and making the correct calls. The physical act of shooting a moderately heavy rifle from the prone is not some super athletic skill set.

I have a friend that I consider a poor shot, does not practice, has no idea of how to obtain a solid field rest and if he hits an 8" paper plate at 200yards 50% of the time with his rifle I would be suprised. While playing on the ranch he was impressed the way I was splattering stuff with my .243 running the 115Dtac and wanted a try. He dry fired a few times and then using the called comeups and windage hold he wiped out a crow at 435 yards and a second one over 550. Two one shot hits on something smaller than the vitals of that elk.

My brother in law is in his 30s and his last shots fired were from an air rifle in boy scouts. Set him up at the range and put him on a 6" plate at 400yards, had him dry fire a few to understand the concept of a trigger press, gave him a wind read and he pops the plate 2 for 2. He looked at me and said "so what is so hard about that", he switched to the 600yard plate I told him to guess on external ballistics and I let him chase his tail in a switching cross wind for a half dozen rounds before he looked over and said "I get it now". He quickly understood that the knowledge was far more important than the physical skill. I have coached a lot of new shooters over the years and if they willing to listen they can have fabulous results. When I got that particular .243 up and running I put it on paper at 100 with 3-4 rounds then jumped right to 1000yards on a plate. The next three rounds were under 8"and a little bit high because of a software problem, I did not compensate for the uphill shot and the 1000yard plate should have only needed data for about 970. Went back to 200yards and followed my JBM results and built a data table to 1200yards. I was blessed to have a very light 6 o'clock wind and from 200 yards out to about 1050 I would not have had a single round off of a 10" target.

For me ethics is a sum of whole. If the hunter had no experience behind this rifle, no knowledge of proper comeups and holds then slinging lead from any caliber at any distance is unethical. As it was shown here the physical component was solid as well as the information required to make the shot. Never met JB in my life but I think if he was looking at a shooter that could not get comfortable, was not sure of themselves or had a good dose of buck (bull?) fever he would have waved off the shot and looked for a fourth setup.


This is a good post by someone who clearly shoots a lot and knows it is no trick to hit from prone with a bipod,even to long distances;and calling conditions is most important of all.

I shot with John one afternoon in Wyoming, he making the "calls" for wind,comeups, etc,and he had three of us on rocks the size of elk vitals to 1200 yards(which to me looked like the next time zone).I was completely incredulous, never having shot so far at anything......When we switched to 800 yards it seemed somehow "easy"...so I know this gal was well coached.

John does not "guess" about this stuff.

What many can't get their head around is that little slip of a bullet killing that elk so quickly.I might feel the same if I had not dug so many 100 gr bullets from elk carcasses years back,killed with a 250 Savage by a pal in Wyoming.A 243 would not be my choice either, but I am not shocked the animals died quickly....


Sure, elk are tough(hit poorly with anything),but it only takes a few inches of penetration over the ribs to reach the lungs,and that 6mm bullet through lungs is a destructive force in soft tissue.No North American ungulate will survive it if placed close enough to where he "lives",ie heart/lungs destroyed.



The 280 Remington is overbore.

The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.