Originally Posted by simonkenton7

I saw 14 patients hit at close range torso shots with bird shot, I am talking a range of 10 to 15 feet, and every one of them died. A 1 1/2 inch "rat hole" entrance wound, no exit.
I never saw anyone hit with buck shot but, I would imagine, whatever bird shot would do, buck shot would do even better.

Close range shotgun hit is the most lethal load a person can be hit with.


Unimpeded close range birdshot GSW's are indeed lethal. The problem we run into here is knowing what the limit of "close" range is.

"Close" range varies with the shooter, the load, and the shotgun. Change any of these and what you think is a lethal load may be only a minor annoyance to your attacker.

First Thing: the shooter. When we include a shotgun session in one of my Tactical Anatomy classes, I find most people bring a pump shotgun (usually an 870 or Mossberg), and they bring at least 25 rounds of their preferred ammunition. Then we test pattern some of the shotguns at 5, 10, 15, 20, and 25 yards. I learned a long time ago it's best if I don't let them shoot their own guns, because most of them can't hit the pattern paper. (And these are people who claim to have a lot of shotgun experience!) We have seen a bunch of folks on this thread deplore the ability of ordinary folks to shoot their handguns effectively in a high-stress home defense situation... what makes you think that someone who can't hit the perp at 5 yards with his 9mm will be able to do it with a shotgun at the same distance? In my instructor experience, crappy handgun shooters who haven't trained enough are also crappy shotgun shooters who haven't trained enough.

Also First Thing: pump shotguns suck when you're under stress. Every 870 fan I know says he would never short-stroke the pump. When I put these guys on a range with even a fraction of stress (I put them 10 yards from a silhouette target, in front of the whole class, and tell them "hit the target five times in five seconds") and short-stroking happens to several people in every class. A good and reliable autoloader is a much better shotgun for real gunfighting. And if you dare to say "autoloaders jam", you'd better be prepared to sell all your AR's.

Second thing: the load. I'm not gonna argue with the birdshot advocates. You're wrong, but I don't care. Do what you want. My shotgun is loaded with buckshot. 00 buck is arguably the best load all around, and plated #1 buck is a close second. But here's the deal: it doesn't matter what load you pick if you don't know where your shotgun throws the pellets. In those shotgun classes I mentioned in the first paragraph, I have found shotguns that will completely miss the silhouette target at 15 to 20 yards with Load A of 00 buckshot but will center the pattern on the chest with Load B. So you HAVE TO PATTERN your shotgun with your chosen load. It may not hit where you are pointing the muzzle. You don't want to find this out when a maniac is attacking you in your home.

Also Second thing: while birdshot is deadly effective inside its lethal range, that lethal range can vary significantly depending on shotgun and load. You can't know the limit of the lethal range of your birdshot loads unless you pattern your shotgun. When you do so, take note of the range at which your pattern opens up to 3-4" or more. At that point, your pellets have lost 30-40% of their velocity and energy, and that may be only 4-5 yards from your muzzle.

Third thing: Continuing with what I've seen in my classes, the quality of most home defense shotguns is dismal. Many home defense shotguns lack a rear sight, and many don't even have a front bead. Good sights are critical to hitting the Bad Guy where he lives and breathes. You need to aim your shotgun if you're defending your life with it; you only point it when you're wingshooting birds. Many defensive shotguns are dry (unlubed), and gas-operated autos often haven't been cleaned in living memory. I'm not talking about the bores... a shiny bore doesn't matter in a shotgun. Shiny, clean, well-oiled actions are what count.


"I'm gonna have to science the schit out of this." Mark Watney, Sol 59, Mars