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Have any VLD detractors here personally called and talked with Berger or studied their site? I doubt it. Maybe watch any of the videos previously posted on the Berger site, where various hunting VLDs were fired into carcasses including bone at point blank range? I doubt it.
You would be wrong, as I've both talked directly with Berger, studied their web site thoroughly and had an online discussion with someone from the factory. In addition I've read reports by those who were happy with the results and those who were not, watched numerous videos, studied photographs of recovered bullets and still find no reason to use them for my hunting.
... Well I have called Berger on several occasions including a couple of times prior to my first VLD kill on elk several years ago. And one of the questions and concerns I had was regarding the maximum impact velocities where the bullet would still be able to do its job without fragmenting to hell before the vitals are greatly disrupted.
This is what they (one of the higher up techs) said....Using the hunting VLDs, "we like" an impact speed to generally not exceed 3000 fps. And that 3000 fps figure is not set in stone or is an absolute max.
Now given the average killing distances for elk all across the board, do you think that a 3000 fps impact speed and less would fall under most if not all of the cartridges used for elk? Now there may be some extreme examples where someone might use a 300 RUM at less than 100-150 yards using say a 185 gr Berger at 3350-3400 fps MV that he loaded to max that will exceed a 3000 fps impact speed. And who is to say, that a reloader cannot down load his 300 RUM Berger VLD hunting load a bit.
But given most elk hunting situations, a 3000 fps impact speed and less, will be far, far more common than otherwise.
And that is why I wouldn`t hesitate.
I have a couple problems with the above - one with the 3000fps impact speed as being an upper limit where the Berger VLDs will work " fragmenting to hell" and the other the "average" distance at which elk are taken.
First, I have no faith the VLDs won't " fragment to hell" at considerably less than 3000fps impact velocities, especially if bone is hit or maybe even an unseen twig. In the Barnes bone/gelatin tests, for example, a 7mm 168g VLD impacting at 2830fps penetrated 14-1/4" and retained only 24.3% of its original weight - pretty much the results advertised by Berger.
http://www.barnesbullets.com/information/bullet-talk/lab-tests/As to the " average killing distances for elk", averages are just that - averages. Most elk are killed at ranges longer or shorter ranges. In 31 years I've never known at what ranges I would shoot until after the actual shot. One day might find me hunting the dense stuff while the next I'm looking across expanses of grass and sage. In years like 2007, where I anticipated 400-600 yards shots, I ended up taking one at 120 yards. A day or two later I passed on a second at 25 feet, only to take one moments later at 40 yards. Last year I was hunting sage with a bull tag in my pocket, in an area where I've taken several elk over the years, and took a muley buck on a quartering away shot at about 20-25 yards with a 180g MRX. The bullet's muzzle velocity was 3038fps last time I chrono'd one. The buck went maybe 3 yards and down. The next day I took my cow at 400 yards, my longest shot ever, with similar results - it swapped ends and took a step or so back the way it had come, then turned uphill for another step or two and went down. In any case, based on my "averages", I don't need a bullet that I think is best suited to ranges over 600 yards, partiularly since I only practice to 600.
Please keep in mind I bear no ill will towards those that choose differently - I just don't see VLDs as a viable solution for my hunting.
..............CH...........I think that John Burns last posting sums things up quite well.
One quote you gave earlier on this thread that he points out, is that you have never used the VLDs for hunting. Well that is your choice not to use them. And as John Burns and I pointed out earlier, it seems clear on these VLD threads, that most if not all VLD detractors have not used them in the field.
And while you say that you know folks that have had VLD failures, there are always other mitigating circumstances as to why. Like why did the VLD fail? Did the elk get away?
I was looking for some real documented or real published links from articles from reliable magazine sources from you. Unless I missed something, I didn`t see any link or source from you in your previous post. Talking with others and getting their opinions are all well and good. But all that is, is 2nd party and beyond heresay. Actual evidence of failure trumps heresay.
So for you, the VLDs will never be on your hunting menu. And you can continue to justify your con opinions about them all you want. And that`s ok! Nevertheless, that does not diminish the fact that the VLDs are extremely lethal elk killers whether it be from the shorter ranges or at the longer extended ranges.
I simply asked the question if any con people to the VLDs called Berger and watched the videos on their site. When I stated that "I doubted it", that didn`t mean that I was 100% sure of that.
The hunting VLDs throw all kinds of wrenches into the traditional thinking of how a bullet "should" work after impact. Your choice is to stick with the traditional methods and thinking.
We successful VLD users at one point had to make the gamble and try them for ourselves for the very first time. It is obvious that you are not willing to go there.
Well until you do CH and are willing to set aside all the second hand heresay from this so and so and from that so and so, it seems to me that regardless of what you state that justifies their non use on elk, it is all conjecture based on opinion which you are entitled to have.
"FIRST" hand experience beats down the line heresay.
And how many times have we read about other so called bullet failure about other brand name bullets on this forum? There have been a few.
The bottom line is that your "after impact" bullet philosophy doesn`t match up with the hunting VLDS.
