]..............CH...........I think that John Burns last posting sums things up quite well.
One quote you gave earlier on this thread that he points out, is that you have never used the VLDs for hunting. Well that is your choice not to use them. And as John Burns and I pointed out earlier, it seems clear on these VLD threads, that most if not all VLD detractors have not used them in the field.
bigsqueeze -
First, thank you for keeping the discussion civil- that is more than a lot of people seem to be capable of doing. I agree that we agree to disagree.
As a side note, my intention on such threads as these is not to denigrate those who choose to use Berger VLDs or the VLDs themselves and I apologize if it seems otherwise. My intent is to provide a second opinion, primarily for the benefit of those who might otherwise choose the product based on one-sided and possibly biased information. Just as no one is going to persuade me that North Forks are a poor choice for my needs, for either performance or cost reasons, I don't expect to persuade someone who is happy with VLDs not to use them - nor is that my intent.
And while you say that you know folks that have had VLD failures, there are always other mitigating circumstances as to why. Like why did the VLD fail? Did the elk get away?
It isn't that I know people who have had "failures" per se, rather just performance that I don't find particularly attractive when other options are available that have a track record of providing performance I do find acceptable - even under adverse conditions where I wouldn't trust a VLD.
I was looking for some real documented or real published links from articles from reliable magazine sources from you. Unless I missed something, I didn`t see any link or source from you in your previous post. Talking with others and getting their opinions are all well and good. But all that is, is 2nd party and beyond heresay. Actual evidence of failure trumps heresay.
2nd party, yes, but a great deal of our learning is equally valid even if indirect. Photos and, videos are sources I consider quite valid, as are manufacturer claims in this case and personal accounts of people I trust.
So for you, the VLDs will never be on your hunting menu. And you can continue to justify your con opinions about them all you want. And that`s ok! Nevertheless, that does not diminish the fact that the VLDs are extremely lethal elk killers whether it be from the shorter ranges or at the longer extended ranges.
Four things I have little doubt about:
1. A Berger VLD would have killed every elk and deer I've ever shot.
2. The difference in time-of-shot to elk-on-ground or distance travelled would have been very marginal at best.
3. Having seen the destruction caused by AMAX bullets use by my son-in-law, I've no doubt VLDs would have caused more, and quite unnecessary, meat loss.
4. When things go badly, as happened with the quartering away buck that moved and got hit in the ham, I trust North Fork, TTSX and Grand Slam to penetrate to the vitals. Not so much a VLD.
I simply asked the question if any con people to the VLDs called Berger and watched the videos on their site. When I stated that "I doubted it", that didn`t mean that I was 100% sure of that.
The hunting VLDs throw all kinds of wrenches into the traditional thinking of how a bullet "should" work after impact. Your choice is to stick with the traditional methods and thinking.
We successful VLD users at one point had to make the gamble and try them for ourselves for the very first time. It is obvious that you are not willing to go there.
Well until you do CH and are willing to set aside all the second hand heresay from this so and so and from that so and so, it seems to me that regardless of what you state that justifies their non use on elk, it is all conjecture based on opinion which you are entitled to have.
"FIRST" hand experience beats down the line heresay.
You are correct, I'll probably not bother trying VLDs - the first-hand experience of others and proud claims by the manufacturer are the primary reasons why.
And how many times have we read about other so called bullet failure about other brand name bullets on this forum? There have been a few.
The bottom line is that your "after impact" bullet philosophy doesn`t match up with the hunting VLDS.
First-hand experience with XLCs is the reason I could never bring myself to use TSX on big game. Second-hand reports confirmed my doubts, even though, as the poster says of Lester's ammunition, "It usually works".
![[Linked Image]](http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/AR15_Duo.jpg)
When the MRX came out the tip gave me enough confidence of reliable expansion that I gave them a try. Some years later with multiple TTSX and MRX kills for myself and my hunting partners, I'm quite happy with the results. The TSX loads I had worked up were quite accurate but I've used them on paper and steel rather than risk another XLC-type incident. The North Forks never gave me concern and first-hand experience with them dropping elk in their tracks has only boosted my confidence in them. Someone may be experiencing failures with them but so far we have not.
By contrast, second-hand accounts of VLD experiences causes what I consider justifiable concern. Not everyone will agree.
By the way, if I was shooting hogs as I used to do coyotes or prairie dogs, I might well give VLDs a go. Different application, different needs, different acceptable results.
