pahick - we can agree to disagree. My post was not a complaining post to bemoan the lack of deer sightings and blame it on other hunters. I always choose less deer density/fewer hunters than higher deer density/more hunters. As an aside, I too prefer to hunt deer undisturbed - they are easier to figure out than when hunters are moving them around.
My "decision" to hunt the big woods, hence lower deer density, wasnt really a choice. I live in York County, raised in York-Adams, and born in 1970. If you wanted to hunt deer, you went north, the deer just werent here in the southern end like they were up state. My relatives had a camp north of Renovo in the 50's. Smack dab in the middle of 3 state forests there was a farmer who slowly broke off parcels, and eventually before his death, all his farm became hunting camps, or lots to be sold. Today, you wouldnt recognize these as farmland. At one point, the majority were all owned by family. Today, theres 4 camps, still on that hill in the family.
I come from a huge family, and family was all life was about, yesterday and today. Tradition dictated that the little town of Tamarack was where you spent your fall, if not most of the year. Until my dad opened his business, he rarely had money to take us on trips to the popular beach destination Ocean City(thought he tried for my moms sake once a year, she loved the beach). Being so, tradition had me in the woods. Again, not by choice, its just what is was. I got to know the land like the back of my hand. Got in my blood. It didnt start out that way. Started hunting at 12 in 82, and whether rifle or muzzler loader, it was pretty much the same...pick a tree and keep your fingers crossed. Rifle season at that point was more tradition, and a mix of socializing, drinking(for adults) and some hunting. For years, I never got a buck. Got close, but no cigar. When I was 16, dad turned me loose and things started to make sense. I still didnt get my first buck 'til 93. And all hell broke loose after that
Because of our business, in a small farm community, we gained a lot of farms to hunt down here over the years. A few times I took them up on offers, but never got the big woods out of my system, and hopefully never do. The big woods influenced me so much, in 2002 I moved to Coudersport for 4 years. My family has a farm just north of there in Andrews Settlement, and another across the NY line so they can hunt sundays. Because of lack of work, I moved home here in York County in 2006. But I never strayed, I kept hunting northern Clinton, and Lord willing I always will. Deer or no deer, hunters or no hunters.
I am curious how deer numbers in 1982 compare to 2014 in the areas you reference. I hunted alot in Warren and Elk counties in the late 70 and early 80's. There is not the same number of deer in those areas today as there was in the late 70's, early 80's time period. The deer numbers dropped off in the early 1980's - and increased doe licenses didn't start till the early 90's if my memory serves me. As an aside my family hails from Clearfield County and my grandfather and father stated the same observation - their experience dates back to the 50's.
Deers numbers were steady through the 80's in our area, exploded around late to early 90's, then of course Herd Reduction hit in 2001, and though numbers started to fall late 90's, they dropped drastically from 2001 til now. Though 2G has been in stabilization mode awhile now, the PGC trickery(DMAPs and splitting 2G into 2G&2H) has the deer dropping further. The explosion of bear, coyote, and IMO poaching, simply cannot give the herd a chance to grow on its own.
Something to chew on with respect to hunter mobility: I sense that I'm a bit older than you. As such, I remember the revolution that was the Baker treestand. The first one I remember belonged to my uncle who bought it to archery hunt from. The only treestands I recall from my youth were wooden fixtures nailed to trees. The Baker allowed you to hunt anywhere suitable trees were found. I recall very, very few people hunting from treestands in rifle season and certainly none in a portable before the early 80's. Possibly it could just be my part of PA. This year I watched 2 guys climbing treestands within site of my first location. My Dad, brother and I are likely representative of the modern deer hunter - we've been using climbing treestands almost exclusively for 25+ years. I normally hunt brushy areas that are virtually impossible to hunt from the ground - without a TS, you would push those deer toward other hunters if trying to hunt there. Its my position that this evolution occurred in NW PA, southern NY, and eastern OH about the same time. I hunted all three of those states in the same year during that time frame and saw the same thing.
I know the Baker stand quite well. One of the biggest sellers locally, and if youre an archer or have been, you'd know of Bowhunters Warehouse which was a big local shop here in York County, not far from my home. And you had John Knapp and his daughters who were excellent archers in their own right. Not sure if they were Mennonite or Brethren, but those young ladies could shoot and knew archery very well. Dad took me to see John when I was 12, and he set me up with a new Jennings Lightning. Rifle season still dominated, but compound bows and treestands were about to make their mark. There were no Bill Jordans and Jackie Bushmans. It was George Klucky Films and a local program on channel 8 called Call of the Outdoors with Harry Allaman, later with Tom Fegley. In our area up north, it was rare to see a hunter in a treestand, at least until the very late 80's. For our clan, my dad and I were the first to bring a Baker, and later API stands. Took others years later to adopt TS hunting, and some never did. Dad still uses a climber, but has two ladder stands since hes over 60 now. I personally have both types, but since I stopped archery hunting 6 yrs ago, I dont use a stand. I prefer to use a small folding seat, or still hunt, depending on conditions(deer and hunter numbers/weather, etc). But no matter my equipment, I still get right on top of the deer. Again, I know the area and lay of the land pretty well. I rarely walk back in to scout. Road trips back old logging roads dawn and dusk and the occasional short walk are all I need. Im not much for sign, due to weather conditions they can be misleading. I want to know the deer are there today, and why, ill figure out if theyll be there tomorrow or not. All I need to do is physically see a deer on my "scouting trips", doe or buck it doesnt matter. Just need to know theyre using it. Ill make it happen.
As to fewer hunters, its a numerical fact that fewer hunters exist now than at about any earlier time in history. Having hunted in more than few States under natural and man-induced movement conditions, I think its a bit of a stretch to infer that deer movement isn't increased when hunters are moving around the woods. The inference being less guys = less deer total movement. Last year on the first day of rifle I saw 49 deer from my treestand. This year I saw 24, 22 between noon and 4:30. I mentioned watching people climbing trees this year. I saw at least 1 other guy from my treestand as well. I saw 24 deer, mostly around noon. I hunted the first saturday, which was crappy - 36 degrees and rain/fog. I saw not a single guy and 1 deer from the exact same stand, with the exact same wind conditions. My Dad saw 0. This past saturday was a repeat of the first saturday. No guys, 1 deer sighting - until my Dad and brother got down and made loops through known deer bedding areas. 10 deer were seen in 1 hr. We've hunted this area for 30 years. We know where the deer eat, bed, travel - travel both under natural conditions and when pushed. I've seen this many, many times in my areas and its not a remarkable coincidence. I probably won't be convinced that less hunters that are less mobile don't result in less total deer sightings.
Each individuals experiences with sightings are different. I hunted over your way 2 years, Just out of Dubois, PA. Actually Falls Creek. Get off Rte 80, turn right at the Sheetz and head back to the railroad tracks, hunted some swamp round there. You indeed needed hunters to get them moving there. That was some thick stuff! Dont get me wrong, more hunters do get deer moving. Depending on weather(and I dont agree with Battues stated study concerning movement and clear skies, ive seen much more movement on extremely overcast days) less hunters have the deer in their natural state. Theyll move just like any other day, whether shots are going off in the distance or not. I know you said you couldnt see my pics posted. To the typical guy in this forum theyre not monsters, but to me theyre trophies. Theyre PA mountain buck. And each shot hunting alone. Im a loner. Which pains me most days, cause my dads getting older and id love to spend all the time I can with him. Back at camp isnt enough, I want more time with him. But we had a talk long ago, im a loner and the woods are a magical place for me. I cant be my best with others trailing me. That said, it is public land and I do run into hunters. If theyre near, my tactics change. If theyre gonna get "my deer" they need to be a better hunter than me, and know the area better. And sometimes that happens. Im fine with that. We're all out there for the same thing.
I'd gather by your reference to bear hunters, you live/hunt in the 'big woods'. I don't doubt deer get back to their normal patterns in a few days after bear season. I think the difference is the amount of pressure actually experienced by the deer during bear season in your area. Overall, I think deer in those type scenarios have much less overall pressure than their farmland brethren.
I wouldnt go that far. Farmland does experience more pressure. But the bear hunters do a fine job of stirring things up. And many people have short memories. Marcellus Shale is a new thing to most folks, but around us the gas industry has been there "forever". Many many old dry wells around us, and Dominion Transmission does its best to keep them filled. Those gentleman have their daily routes, checking well heads and such. Add in locals and visitors(hikers, atver's, horseback riders) the area sees a bit of activity.
This was a long-winded way of saying we can disagree on amount of hunter movement and deer habitat. I agree wholeheartedly about hunter expertise and made reference to such in my post - things have changed but the hunters, for the most part, have not. Your pictures don't display for me but don't doubt you've shot some decent bucks or you wouldn't be posting them. My representation from last year - big 8 pt from eastern TN, shot high on the mountain with no agricultural fields within 10 miles; a 10 pt shot from the aforementioned treestand about 100 yards from a PA farm field. I could post numerous pictures of both environments plus a few from western states but don't think this is a bigger wanger discussion. To your point on hunting where no people go - thats why I hunt the mountains of east Tennessee. Love the mountains and the fact that I see no people. I may have a few sheds from bucks I'm trying to figure out.
They are there, the people are not.
No, definitely not a bigger "wanger" discussion(that made me
) just a difference of opinion on habitat, hunter experience, and geography. What works for some folks definitely wont work for another. One thing I see a lot of, especially in this thread and some others is, the basics. Not to offend anyone, but it sounds like some watch too many hunting shows, and base their knowledge of hunting on such. Learn the animal, learn the terrain. Know what they are doing NOW, not yesterday or last week. When I walk in the woods, I want to know what theyll be doing tomorrow. The basics will get you there. No matter how many deer or hunters are in the woods. You were right above, good discussion. Thanks!
