Originally Posted by R_H_Clark
Originally Posted by OrangeOkie
Originally Posted by jaguartx
And every eye shall see him return in that cloud of glory, even those who pierced him.


So here is my question . . . if this passage is literal, and every person on earth was to actually see Christ coming in the clouds of glory, with their own eyes, simultaneously, and that the resurrection of all the dead who had ever lived on earth, all the way from Adam and Eve to the day of Christ coming in the clouds, . . . . then how were these people over in 2 Tim 2 having their faith overthrown by Hymenaeus and Philetus claiming the resurrection was past? If every eye was to literally "see Christ return in the clouds of glory" someone claiming this had already happened would be laughed to scorn, no?

We need to answer these questions, and not just gaze past them and go on with our beliefs about the second coming.



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Here is an interesting take on the "resurrection."

2 Tim 2:15-18

15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.


Question: If the resurrection in the New Testament refers to the simultaneous 1) coming of Christ in the clouds, 2) on the day of judgment, 3) the end of time, 4) the burning up of the sun, moon, and stars, and 5) the resurrection of all the dead of all people from the beginning of Adam and Eve, to be 6) judged by Christ, sitting on the throne of judgment, separating the good from the evil, like a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats . . . then how could the faith of some be over thrown simply by Hymenaeus and Philetus saying that "the resurrection is past already?" How could these people possibly believe "the resurrection is past already" if all of these visible and astonishing things were to happen in front of their very eyes? Is it possible that many of us today do not understand what was the Resurrection of the New Testament?

I contend the "Resurrection" mentioned in the New Testament is the resurrection of Israel form "spiritual death" and the transformation of God's people from the fleshly Israel to the " Spiritual Israel" which was fulfillment of the promise made to Abraham, and it occurred in 70 AD with the physical annihilation of the earthly vestiges of the Mosaic economy.




Oh,my brother,we would have to sit down and talk about these things for hours if not days before we could completely understand. Just as a quick note,I think you read too much into the phrase "and overthrow the faith of some" by giving it substance it may not necessarily contain. I think the point is rather that the Resurrection had not come yet,and so the teaching was in error.


Okay I'm confused.

First, Hymenaus and Philetus, whoever these people were did not impress the Apostle Paul much so that is a giant, colossal, big ass, honking, red flag right there that whatever they believed was wrong. He made a negative statement without detail about them in One Timothy as well.

Next, tradition states that Paul was murdered by the Romans sometime around AD 67 so he wrote both One and Two Timothy before then. So if Hymenaus and Philetus were teaching that the resurrection had already happened in time for Paul to write about them, they were doing it before the destruction of the Temple in AD 70 when the "spiritual resurrection" was alleged to take place by these folks. So that would make them wrong about it even if it were true. So my question is, can the people espousing this theory not count?

Further, what pages of the Bible do you have to tear out in order to make this theory work? Perhaps One Thessolonians 4: 16-18. If the second coming has already taken place, are we waiting for the 3rd in which Jesus "comes down from heaven"? Anytime someone comes to me with some kind of new "revelation" that requires me to twist, edit, or omit other scriptures, I gong it pretty quick. No end to all manner of cockamamie stuff has been concocted based on one verse which could easily be dismissed as garbage if people would only read the Bible and think for themselves and apply its whole counsel. When you fail to do that you are liable to wind up dancing with a rattlesnake in some little church in the Appalachian mountains.......or some such mental equivalent.

"Men must be governed by God or they will be ruled by tyrants". --- William Penn