Greetings The Campfire,
My apologies for the delayed responses, it has been hard to keep up with all the postings on the various forums as well as make a few rifles! I just realized that my last posting update was way back on page 6. We greatly appreciate all the feedback, input, criticism and comments on our rifles. Passion with a bit of Poison at times is the way I would describe this thread and the number of responses is almost overwhelming to us at the company. I hope we can be civil with each other and those who offer up poison will be ignored by us I suspect. I will try to catch up with the questions and comments but it might take me a day or so...
Blackbrush: Your question about the design and construction of the bolt and bolt head is a valid one and an astute observation. My short answer is that it is safe but of course you want facts. I am in the process of gathering some engineering data and information that I will provide to you shortly, just be a bit patient with my timing. If you look at some other photo angles of the bolt you will see that despite the cuts there is still a substantial amount of material on the lugs and it is not a one lug configuration. I am trying to get some other photos together to post on the Website to allow shooters to see it...please stay tuned.
Twist Rates: Yes, we got the message, twist rates are important of certainly to this group of shooters. It is a bit of a challenge to configure barrels and twist rates that will satisfy everybody. The shooter's on this forum are more advanced in their skills and shooting requirements when compare it to the average hunter who really doesn't pay attention to twist rates. For us, trying to keep our rifles at a price point that is competitive, it is difficult to offer a variety of options. I will say in general we are making an effort overall to move to faster twists. We will be looking at each caliber chambering again with an eye to “modernize" the twist rates more. As I stated in an earlier posting, we will be reestablishing our custom business, but probably not until late 2015 or early 2016. There the sky is the limit. The information that all of you are providing has been very helpful.
Shortactionsmoker has a pretty good suggestion to market to the rifle guys, the others won't know the difference or care.
Taylorforce1: your observation about the industry moving towards sub $500 rifles your spot on. We call it “the race to the bottom". We wonder where it will end. I am not suggesting that those rifles don't have a purpose, but that is not where we want to be with our rifles.
Tedthorn: thanks for your comments. I guess I would say “different strokes, for different folks" when it comes to our action configuration and the sharp edges you refer to. I think it makes the rifle look distinctive but at the same time still comfortable to carry in the hand. Your point about the scope base hanging over the rear action bridge is a valid one. Part of the reason is the size and configuration of the Talley style base and weaver style bases that we are using. In reality the real issue is the length of the rear receiver bridge is generally shorter than most other rifles. I will take that suggestion back to Mark and the team and see if we can make a modification. With regard to the bolt handle welding, that is a good comment but TIG welding is a bit harder to do and can be more expensive. We have tested the bolt handles under significant stress and have been satisfied with their strength. However if you are a handloader who likes to run in the world of maximum pressure, and end up sticking a bolt shut, we can't guarantee it when you whack at it with a 2x4! For normal hunting and shooting use the bolt handles have held up well. 28 Nosler...looks like an interesting cartridge and new can be good...not going to say anymore to avoid divulging company secrets. With regard to bottom metal, no immediate plans for a blind magazine. I personally don't like them but understand that there is a desire for that in the market.
Skane: Nope, not Hawkins bottom metal but one of equal quality. You are correct on the blind magazine issue...it seems to be a true split down the middle.
Steelhead, tedtthorn: Regarding the stock "2x4 look" that you suggest is perhaps the way the picture is configures. Yes the stock does have a squarish flat bottom and it sits well in the bags but at the same time feels well and carries well. This design has been on Mark's stocks for over 20 years and has been widely accepted. I suggest reserving judgment until you can get one in your hand.
Ted-I'll take that bet, I don't think you carry the gun that far up on the forearm of the stock but rather at the floorplate where it is slightly rounded. They feel well in the hand. I used a Big Five in Mozambique on a buffalo hunt last September and carried it for 10 days and never once felt it was uncomfortable.
JasonH: You are correct with regard to prices. We took pretty hard look at the market and you see two "peaks" one under $500 and the other over ~$2500. Considering a Winchester Model 70 is selling in the $1100 to $1200 range we think we have a market price point that is attractive considering the features offered. And you are correct, we are spoiled in the US with our options...but I submit that there is one rifle out there that will make you happy
Deflave: The 243 with a 1 in 8" really seems to me to be on he extreme end of the shooting community wishes but as I said we are looking at all twists. I do not have personal experience with a 243 so can't offer real life fact based opinion. Do you have experience with that twist rate and shooting bullets at the extreme light and heavy ends of the spectrum? If so how did they shoot?
Tedthorn: The bottom metal pocket is both cut and molded, the fit is excellent IMO. Utter the phrase “Injection Molded” and that will get you fired at LAW after Mark tears you a new one. Okay, no more company secrets...
RDfinn: $20K for a mold...I wish! I had no idea what was involved to make a stock and I'll bet most others would be surprised too. Knowing what I know makes our rifles an even better value IMO.
Tedthorn: You are absolutely right on, I am overwhelmed at the amount of advice we have received from this and other forums. I can't keep up and of course not all of it is actionable for us but the test bed is something unique to our sport I suspect. Maybe the car guys get as passionate but for us in the gun industry we can't even begin to put a value on the advice...thanks again to all.
Steelhead: COAL and mag box information...Heard it, I just put the final touches of an Action Specification Sheet and it will be up on the LAW Website next week in the Model 704 Action Specs link here:
http://www.legendaryarmsworks.com/704-action/. It should give all the information people want. Yes, looking at the 7mm cartridge twists...we chose the industry accepted standards but are reviewing them
Tedthorn/taylorforce: Regarding the statement: This company won't be around in 5 years if they want to build $1500 rifles that a company in Yonkers already builds for 500 less.... you refer to a Kimber. I have one in our shop and have compared them side by side...not even close on many fronts, stock is not as comfortable to me, not Cerakoted etc. Melvin Forbes is a great gunsmith with tremendous experience and he and Mark are friends but it is a push feed rifle.
JasonH: Correct, we are not marketing an ultra light rifle but rather a sporter rifle and you are correct in our competitive environment being Nosler and perhaps a Montana. With most of the other rifles the separator is the controlled round feed action.
10thgeneration/thekid/fosteology/rwe: As I stated above, we appreciate the advice and yes it is equivalent to an R&D department. We are listening, may not mean we can act on everything though. And yes I’d like to think it takes balls to come here and “run the gauntlet” but I will say that the response has been at least 90% positive constructive criticism for the forum both publicly and in PMs. There are some members who should be sent to their room without milk and cookies however…
Moosemike: We will be at the Great American Outdoor Show in booth 457. Please stop by and introduce yourself.
Mmgravy: I don’t think we are “afraid” of changing twists but we are taking both a measured and fact based approach to producing rifles that will appeal to most shooters. I’m not saying we are trying to make our rifles “generic” but each change is being very well researched and thought out primarily because changes translate to one thing-expense. I think we have shown that we are adaptable at LAW. We heard the message-reconsider your twist rates.
Regarding the Ron Spomer video: Jesus guys, before you go off the rails further please take a breath, get a glass of single malt and relax
… Yes the commentary may seem misleading, but here are the
FACTS. SHOT Show range day is huge amount of activity for many gun companies. Our team was set up and
was shooting at a steel gong at 500 yards. Ron shot about midway through the day and the gong was obliterated with hits (yes I said hits at 500 yards) making it hard to determine a group. It was not possible to go downrange, nor permitted and no there was no snow, just bullets flying around! And yes there were optics there and yes there was an attempt to spot the gong but after so much shooting it was not truly possible to judge a group. I thought I remember someone here posting that they were at the Range Day event so perhaps they would corroborate my summary. The event was really meant to allow the writers and dealers to shoot the rifle a bit, get familiar with the fit, feel and finish not an extensive testing for accuracy. That will come later when they rifles in the hands at their home ranges. Currently there are at least three articles in the works by writers and those will be more detailed. Really the SHOT Show range day is more akin to a beauty pageant than a full blown rifle test. There is so much activity going on that all writers and dealers get to do is quick review. Spomer is a man of high ethics and a good writer IMO with boundless energy and I think he was impressed with the gun.
Deflave….an unemployed alcoholic with a Zeiss spotter and camera….maybe you should replace your milk carton with beverage that is a little more calming
Ringman: We are trying to answer questions, get feedback and be transparent. As for my postings just being a commercial to get cheap advertising, I think that would be insulting for me to do that to the Forum members. No question that we want to sell guns, we probably could spend our money on the typical advertising avenues with less effort but that is not the goal. I think I’ve shown that LAW is giving in return for getting. If the moderator views this as advertising they always have the option to remove the thread but that has not happened on any of the forums where I have been commenting.
Brad: Hope told me about the communication with you and I’m sorry that we can’t immediately fulfill your needs for a M70 configuration you seek. As I said in earlier posts nearly all of our efforts in stock making are being devoted to the M704 rifles and we “fill in” as we can on the secondary market. Yes the market is probably strong for a variety of rifle fits, I think at last count we had 35 variations in house. Yes we can set up to fit that M70 and probably will hopefully in the near future. I would submit however that you would be aghast if I told you the amount of effort and finances to do one rifle stock mold…not done overnight.
Gents, Let’s try to keep the thread positive or I will be forced to send some of you guys to detention
RDFinn: Yep, as I said above we will be at the Great American Outdoor Show booth 457. I will be there towards the end of the show with Craig at our booth. Please visit and introduce yourself. If you ask me “what is the twist rate on this rifle” my answer will be “Oh, all our guns are twisted fast, they shoot any bullet you can find”
I’ll end this long winded response again with a genuine “Thank You” to the forum for the feedback…I gotta go help make a rifle.
Paul
