…. his credibility comes up short, due to a lack of experience as a street cop. If you haven't "been there and done that", you gotta get your data somewhere, so you use data from other sources, instead of personal experience. Doing traffic stops on hay-balers in a 1-stoplight town in New Hampshire doesn't qualify…..I'd rather listen to folks that have personal experience, several times over. They're out there; people like Kyle Lamb, Scotty Reitz, Larry Mudgett or Bill Allard. You just gotta be careful picking your "expert"….
…..and yet, ironically MANY (i.e. Scotty Reitz) of the most prestigious SWAT organizations in the country trained under Jeff Cooper……a man who never spent a day as a street cop (hay bailing community or otherwise)…..a bunch went to the Chapman Academy (Ray spent a short time as a county sheriff as a range officer but certainly not to your street-cred qualification)…….in the early 80's, SEALS and DELTA worked with John Shaw and Bill Wilson, men who have never spent a day in ANY uniform nor heard a shot fired in anger……..other elite military units worked with Bill Rogers a great man who AFAIK was never in the military and I don't recall hearing of any FBI firefights that he was in…….If being bloodied "on the street" is your criteria, of the original trainers only Clint Smith, Chuck Taylor and John Farnam qualify….I don't believe Hackathorn's ever seen the elephant…..on the LEO side Jim Cirillo is about it and Ken and Jim both frequently worked with Jeff and Ray…….the point is that the guys that you mentioned all learned their craft initially from competitive shooters like (dare I say it) Ayoob……..if you want to see REALLY ridiculous training, check out things being offered by supposed ex-SpecOps guys just back from Mesopotamia….i.e. "Shoot like a Seal," etc…….or guys like James Yeager (he's the epitome of your criteria).
I really don't have a dog in this fight-----Ayoob is as idiosyncratic as a person can be outside of captivity……but that doesn't mean that he hasn't offered something of value over the years.
JMO----of course I could be wrong.
Yeah, you're wrong. Yeager? That's your hero? You GOT to be kidding. The Iraq contractor-coward on Route Irish? The only fight he was in, he hid in a ditch without returning fire. You've just proven my point, regarding "experts". Pick carefully. But most of the guys you've mentioned DO have something to offer...superb marksmanship and teaching skills. Gunfights aren't the ONLY criteria, but it's nice to have. Stellar shooting skills (and the ability to teach them) are also nice. Bill Wilson, Ray Chapman and Bill Rodgers (and Rob Leatham, also not a "killer") are superb marksmen. Ayoob ain't in their league.
As far as being taught by Cooper...Scotty Reitz, Larry Mudgett and John Helms were ALREADY decorated LA city cops when they attended Gunsite and used what Cooper had to offer. Cooper in turn used their experiences as SWAT cops and borrowed them as instructors at Gunsite (most LAPD SWAT dudes used to do tours at Gunsite as instructors) to validate his teachings. Let's see...Jeff Cooper. Decorated career Marine, WW II vet, more than one gunfight. Ability to listen and an outstanding trainer. Definitely not Yeager. Incidentally, Kyle Lamb, former 1st SFOD-D (DELTA) was never a cop, either. Lots of creds, though. Time "outside the wire", great instructor and a superb competitive marksman. Pretty good writer, too.
Yeah, you're definitely wrong. But that's OK. Sign on with and read Ayoob; I guess you can do worse. Again, lots of experts out there. Pick wisely. Bob
