[quote=mauserand9mm]Looks like the theists have run out of steam. Antlers is in misdirection mode, CCCC is producing bafflegab and Raspy is patting them all on the backside and saying "good job".
Over and above the other of your failures, you are delusional if you believe what you posted.
Just remember that any premise beginning with "God made..." or "God created..." is invalid despite any evasive side arguments.
You should remember that any premise based upon the presumption of no God or beginning with “I don’t know why/what/how [blank] happened but God didn’t…..” is invalid despite your deflection and obvious confusion.
Just because you wrongly believe what you posted doesn’t mean it’s true. 😉
There is hope when someone will say "I don't know or I don't understand". If a Stephen Hawking tells you with a certainty that this universe began when all this matter collapsed into a particle smaller than an atom and created an explosion that turned loose all the matter and has sent it at incredible velocity out into space which in turn produced our finely tuned rhythmic rotating and orbiting universe and that is all there is to it. Well, there isn't any hope of bringing that person back to thinking there is a supernatural first cause.
Believing that there is a supernatural cause is an assumption, an illusion of knowledge where no knowledge exists.
''I don't know how the universe came to be'' is the honest position.
Faith doesn't provide the answers, it just gives believers the illusion of answers.
If there is a God, whatever that may be, God appears to have no interest in dealing with us openly.
Instead we have self appointed representatives assuming to speak on behalf of whatever God they are spruiking.
Most scientist do know how the universe came to be...despite some materialists proposing “time before the Big Bang”, there is no evidence for it all.
I didn't mean the big bang. The universe may be a part of a larger system, cyclic, a one off fluke, quantum instability/fluctuations, or whatever...it hasn't been established, it is not known. Nor has it been established or ruled out that time had a beginning.
It is not known. That is the point of my remark
Originally Posted by Raspy
[ Despite Physicists such as Victor Stenger postulating “Pre-Big Bang time”, or what Stephen Hawking calls, “Imaginary Time” there is no proof for it, whereas, there is much proof for there being a beginning. This is why it is rejected by most Cosmologists because the evidence points to a "singularity" of the beginning of space, time, energy and matter. Far from time being meaningless in the moments of the Big Bang, the timing of the expansion rate from the moment of the Big Bang was critical.
It is not known, nothing has been established in that regard, and no reason to invoke faith, that because we don't know, God did it.
The correct position is: we don't know.
You are correct, we do not absolutely know.......but, from my perspective, my (I think interesting) research shows that the universe was caused by the God of the Bible is a reasonable one since the universe supports this conclusion. For example, the cause of the universe must logically be greater than the effect of the Universe — since no effect can be greater than its cause. We know that at the Big Bang, all space, time, energy and matter, came into existence. Therefore, the First Cause of this must be logically greater than this effects. Therefore, the Cause is not subject to space ~ it must be omnipresent; the Cause is not subject to time ~ it must be eternal; the Cause is not subject to any limits of energy/power ~ it must be omnipotent (all-powerful); and, the Cause cannot be material ~ it must be immaterial. Added to this, the universe is exquisitely fine-tuned and displays the hallmarks of purposeful, thoughtful design, which points to the First Cause being both personable (only personal agents are capable of thought) and omniscient. These are the unique and exclusive attributes of the God of the Bible.[/quote]
Edit out the fallacies and errors of Raspy's post and you'd have a blank post. You'd think that a god would be embarrassed by the antics of the apologists.
Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
Originally Posted by Raspy
Whatever you said...everyone knows you are a lying jerk.
That's a bold assertion. Point out where you think I lied.
