Originally Posted by antlers
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
We are biological beings. Biological being die. It is not a question of if you and everyone you know is going to cease to exist, but a matter of when, and how, and what you are going to do between this day and that.
I can see that. Speaking for yourself, do you ever believe in any kind of higher power...? And speaking for yourself, do you ever feel a deep sense of spiritual peace and well-being...?



Antler, I do not believe it's your intent, but some of the words you used can have pretty slippery meanings, so please forgive me as I try to remove some of that ambiguity so we do not end up talking past each other.

Do I believe in "any kind of higher power"?

If by "higher power" you mean some kind of supernatural overlord, controller, or supreme influence, whether in the singular or plural, I see no good evidence supporting such a proposition regardless of how it's labeled.

In contrast, if we are discussing natural forces, yes, we are very much at the mercy of many random variances in the universe. A single supernova, asteroid, wandering blackhole ect. in the wrong place at the wrong time, and that's it, we are done, and there's not a thing we can do about it. So in that sense, yes there are "higher powers" or shall we say "powers", or "forces" beyond our control.

If we take a more local view, can a collection of humans be a "higher power", or shall we say "more powerful" than the individual, or even the sum of the collection of individuals? Yes, we know that to be the case which is why we are social animals. The power of the symphony to create spiritual awe greatly surpasses that of the lone violinist.

Now let me apologize a bit for bring up the other slippery word in your question, "spiritual". The Cambridge dictionary specifically includes the word "religious" in it's definition of "spiritual", and Oxford defines religion as "believing in religion", so we get a circular definition that precludes all non-religious experiences from "spiritual". Other definitions presuppose the existence of a soul, or intelligence separate from the physical body, for which again, we have no good evidence.

If however by "spiritual" you mean deeply touching or moving experiences, or those that create a deep sense or awe, wonder or inspiration, then yes, I have the same full range of "spiritual" experiences as theist do, I just don't attribute the experience to any power higher than the combined talents of the symphony. I don't need a god to explain the deep sense of peace and well being I experience the concert, the thousand years of combined experience and 50,000 hours of practice is enough for me. And once it's over, and you reflect upon the totality of the combined efforts necessary to bring you that 90 minutes of spiritual bliss, isn't that pretty awesome as well?


You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.

You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell