Originally Posted by Tarquin
Originally Posted by Idaho_Shooter
Originally Posted by Tarquin
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper


Morality is relative to death, property and human relations, self defence, etc. The benefits to not killing wontonly are that you yourself and your family are safer if your society adopts this standard. The same for stealing, social manners, etc, everyone benefits. We don't need religion to tell us that.

Secular societies now are doing better than theocracies ever did.


Against any measure of well being, the less theocratic the society the greater the well being of it's people. The same plays out across American states.


False. Utah.

Apparently you have little knowledge of Utah's early history. Or you are wearing Morman blinders.

Now, don't take this wrong. I have no problem with the modern LDS Church. They are one of the most conservative and family oriented groups out there. But 19'th century Utah was not a friendly place to be if you were not Morman.

For ex: ZMCI...Zion Mercantile Co-op Inc, an organization of merchants within the Morman Church. If a non member moved into town and tried to compete, the member merchants sold their inventory at a loss until the interloper was run out of town. Their losses subsidized by the Co-op.

Mountain Meadows Massacre?

The Utah War? US Army vs Mormans May 1857- July 1858.

Many of the present day Mormans I know refuse to acknowledge that any such events ever happened. Revisionist history abounds.

Utah really began to prosper when the theocracy was subjugated and the state became an actual part of the Union.


My point was to refute AS's claim by pointing out that the social health indicators of Mormons are very high, thus defeating his claim that in every case religiosity doesn't correlate with social virtue. The Mountain Meadows massacre or other such facts do not rebutt my point. Every religion and secular ideology has committed atrocities. I'm no expert on history, but didn't he Mormons also suffer a fair amount of persecution at the hands of so-called "Chrisitans"?
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I said against every measure, not in every instance. They are not the same thing.

You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.

You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell