Originally Posted by TF49
Originally Posted by DBT
Originally Posted by TF49
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Originally Posted by TF49
For DBT......One clear example of this is indeed Titus1:12....

Paul is talking about correcting false teachers...

Here is what Paul says...”As one of their own prophets has said, ‘Cretan are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.”

Paul goes on to confirm the idea that false teachers should be rebuked..... by the way, he mentions “dishonorable gain”. Whoever wrote your point #5 was deliberately incomplete in the description and I am pretty sure had slander as a motive.

Whoever wrote the comment on your point #5 fails.... on purpose, to present the context.

Who is the false teacher here?



Titus wasn't written by Paul, but you already know that.




Well, this is interesting. One atheist claims Paul, in his writings, borrowed from Greek philosophy and another atheist claims that Paul didn’t write Titus.

Figures.....


Later today, I will finish up on the letter to Titus for DBT.

Perhaps in the meantime, you can tell us why Paul was not the author of Titus?


My point was in relation to the claim that the bible, the new testament, etc, is the inspired word of God, yet here we have Paul not being inspired by God, not putting his own thoughts to parchment, but copying the work of Pagans, Greek Philosophers.

Can you not see the implications of this for the bible?




Yes, I can see it and you are totally wrong. Paul's use of some reference to the culture of the day is entirely appropriate and does not negate the inspiration of what he says.....

DBT and his comment: “So again. If St Paul copied from Greek philosophy, he was not using his own thoughts or reasoning or being inspired by God, he was copying other people’s work, the work of Greek Philosophers.”

Note that Titus is in Crete and Paul is advising him on how to deal with rebellious dissenters and ….. deceivers there in Crete as he is tasked with building up the church. There are problems in Crete and Paul is advising. Paul is providing Titus with material to use and insight.

However, your point is that if he copied …. or quoted from other sources, he was not using his own thoughts? Right….. and since it was not his own “reasoning” it could not be inspired by God.

Your point might have a tiny bit of merit if he was using the quotes to add doctrine and introduce a new teaching. He is of course NOT doing that at all. That would be like saying it is God’s word that “….Cretans are always liars, evil beasts , slow bellies….”

Note that no one has ever said that this was Paul’s point. In fact, he does indeed attribute the comment to an earlier poet from Crete. He did this to help make a point…. perhaps some “riffing” …. perhaps to put in a line call attention of the Cretans to that saying. This is not doctrine that he is teaching.
Any implication that Paul used Greek philosophy and massaged it into Christian doctrine is simple deceit, fabricated to undermine Paul’s teachings.

Consider this.... let's suppose God wanted to make a point to someone and while doing so, explained to them about what FDR may have said in 1941. Would that communication be invalidated because of God's reference what FDR said?

No, it would not be invalidated.

btw.... Jesus often used figures of speech. If someone did not understand this he might misunderstand when Jesus said He was the "gate for the sheep."

The point is this...…not understanding is not reason to toss out all that you do not understand. I have literally heard people object to Jesus as He could not possible be "bread."

The article you quote from says this: “….. there are also passages….. where Christian teachings are explained using concepts from Greek philosophy….” This is for the purpose of explaining and transmitting understanding to people of differing languages and cultures. The use of “Greek philosophy” is simply a tool to assist in conveying a Christian teaching. Nothing else.



For my point to stand, it doesn't matter who wrote it.

It doesn't matter if it was Paul or a bunch of anonymous scribes who wrote that which was undeniably copied from Greek philosophy.

Authorship of the new testament, the gospels and some of the works ascribed to Paul is questionable in any case. That is beside the point.

It makes no difference because we clearly have copying from Greek philosophy rather than divine revelation at work.

It's there for anyone to see.

It has nothing to do with me, or me being wrong.

There it is, anyone can see it: Greek philosophy. Does divine revelation need to copy from Greek philosophers in order to teach the word of God?

Last edited by DBT; 06/21/20.