Originally Posted by Starman
Originally Posted by Thunderstick


I think you are missing the point I was making. The critics of Christianity in the days of the early Church did not deny that Jesus performed miracles,
because there were too many witnesses...


Famous magicians still draw large audiences that 'witness' objects appearing and disappearing, miracle like.

some even think great magicians have sold their soul to the devil to gain the ability to do what they believe
are wonderous awe inspiring supernatural acts or demomstrations.

then others with adopted religious beliefs will think a person can get such supernatural powers from a God.


Originally Posted by Thunderstick

The resurrection of Jesus Christ was the ultimate proof that His deeds were not sleight of hand, illusory, or occultic. .


Christians for millennia have ultimately relied on FAITH that He has risen , not proof.

Evidence or proof based beliefs don't require such faith , or do they?

When it comes to right before ones very eyes miracles or magic shows, People can claim to witness things and simply be fooled
into believing something happened that didn't actually happen...but they will swear it did.
now if that aint credulous enough ....many folks today [without actually witnessing] totally believe in miracles /or magic shows
from 2000+ yrs ago and they remain totally convinced that it happened precisely the way they have been told it happened.

In other words,.. they are putting blind faith in the long strung-out contorted word of mouth subjective beliefs shared from one
anonymous [non-witnessing] believer to another....and they take it all to be the indisputable Gospel Truth.


These statements about Christianity simply are not true. The death and resurrection story from the very beginning was shared on the basis of fact. Note Luke's Gospel's opening statements:

1 Inasmuch as many have undertaken to compile a narrative of the things that have been accomplished among us, 2 just as those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word have delivered them to us, 3 it seemed good to me also, having followed all things closely for some time past, to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, 4 that you may have certainty concerning the things you have been taught.

Luke makes it clear to Theophilus that the things believed by the Christians were based on eye witness accounts. In his gospel record he provides the chronology of the events tracing the timelines with both the Jewish religious calendar and significant events in the Roman Empire with the intent to show the certainty of the record. This time frame of Christ has been validated by both Suetonius and and Tacitus the Roman historians as Jesus having been crucified under Pontius Pilate.

Suetonius--Since the Jews constantly made disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, he expelled them from Rome.

Tacitus--But all human efforts, all the lavish gifts of the emperor, and the propitiations of the gods, did not banish the sinister belief that the conflagration was the result of an order. Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judæa, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular.

Pliny--They asserted, however, that the sum and substance of their fault or error had been that they were accustomed to meet on a fixed day before dawn and sing responsively a hymn to Christ as to a god, and to bind themselves by oath, not to some crime, but not to commit fraud, theft, or adultery, not falsify their trust, nor to refuse to return a trust when called upon to do so.


Last edited by Thunderstick; 07/01/19.