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Once again. It is not my moral standards that are under question. It is the moral standards of the bible that are under question. Your trying to impose your own conditions onto me as way of deflection from the actual issues.

Do you really mean to say that if I don't provide a description of my own moral standards there are no contradictions in the bible?

That is not an argument. It's ludicrous.


That there are problems in the bible is undeniable.
For example;

If God is good to all and his tender mercies are all of his works;


''The Lord is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works.''Psalm 145:9

Yet God has a man killed for gathering sticks on a Sabbath;


While the people of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day. 33 And those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron and to all the congregation. 34 They put him in custody, because it had not been made clear what should be done to him. 35 And the LORD said to Moses, The man shall be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp. 36 And all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him to death with stones, as the LORD commanded Moses. Numbers 15:32-36:

God is clearly not good to all and has shown no mercy toward what to us as mere humans would call a trivial offense. Certainly not a Capital Crime.

We have;

1)God is good to all
2)God kills a man for gathering sticks.
3)God showed no goodness toward that man
4)The Lord is a God of tender mercy.
5) The Lord did not show any mercy for a man gathering sticks on a Sabbath.

God is good to all/God was not good toward the gatherer of sticks'

The lord is a God of tender mercy/ The Lord showed no mercy for a trivial offense.



This is an excellent post to use as an example of a skeptic moralizing from their own arbitrary standards. Rather than even trying to understand the texts within their contexts an outside morality is inserted which makes moral judgments without stating the moral law which is the basis of that judgment. I have been noting this regularly with others, but you have done it a few more times here which helps illustrate the point being made.

Now let's look at these texts.

The sabbath was established as part of the order of creation--a fundamental part of the original law and order for the moral code of man. Gen.2:2,3
God knew that man needed to be in relationship with Him in order for the world to perform as He intended. He sanctified that 7th day and asked that it be observed for physical rest and spiritual focus. This was essential for the creation order and the well being of man. Man needed to recognize the existence of God, the fact that he is the servant of God, and that he also needs physical rest. The laws of the 10 commandments did not ordain the sabbath, rather it reinforced the sabbath by saying "remember" the Sabbath day to keep it holy." So the order of keeping the Sabbath holy from the very beginning is part of the first moral code of conduct.

This is where personal morals come into play because atheists or agnostics typically cannot see any value in remembering God or in keeping any day holy for Him. With all the moral law flowing from God, the moral lawgiver; keeping God in view was essential to preserving God's moral law. Therefore the Sabbath was the first and highest ordinance of honor to God. A violation of the sabbath was a deliberate act of profanation against God and a rebellion against His moral law. The violation of it is not about picking up sticks per se, it is about defiance against God, and God's law, and all that both of them stand for. Its picking the one day that God has sanctified using that day to express open defiance against Him, His law, and the order of His people. Let this go unpunished, or even trivialized, and the sabbath ordinance will cease and man will drift away from God and His laws.

In a more practical sense the whole concept of a 7 day week comes from this ordinance and the concept of 1 day off in 7 for rest and spiritual focus. Simply dropping the Lord's day (1st day in 7 according to the new creation by Christ) and treating it like any other day will eventually degrade our spiritual priorities and focus and undermine everything sacred and holy.The Jews, their families, their servants, and their livestock all rested on the 7th day.

When you have this proper understanding of the sabbath (and you can verify this with traditional Judaism) you can easily understand why the gathering of sticks was a capital offense--because it was a deliberate act of rebellion and profanation against God, His laws, and the spiritual welfare of His people.

The capital punishment was a beneficent act of mercy because it shielded the rest of the people from contemplating a similar action. The punishment maintained the sanctity of the people and preserved their faith and the ordinance which would help maintain their relationship with God and His moral law.

So to the Jew, even the corporal punishments of their law were just acts of mercy which shielded the rest of the people from the degradation of their society. The offenders knew when they made a rebellious choice that consequences were likely to be swift and deadly if they were caught.

But again, if you do not have the same moral background or respect for God and His laws you will never understand how the mercy and grace of God were manifested in justice. The same authors who extolled the mercy of God were the same ones who said they loved the law of the Lord. Catching an offender and executing corporal punishment was viewed as a cleansing from rebellion and moral decline. There is absolutely no tension in these passages when they are understood within the context of the Jewish faith--they see perfect harmony.

So when you reject this explanation -- remember you are doing so on the basis of your own morality and are doing so because you also would consider it a trivial thing to despise God and His laws.




Last edited by Thunderstick; 07/11/19.