Originally Posted by BOWSINGER
Originally Posted by Thunderstick
Originally Posted by DBT


[quote=Thunderstick][quote=DBT][quote=Thunderstick]An avowed skeptic reading the Bible is similar to an avowed communist reading our constitution.


Look at the original post it was there all along.when I compared an avowed skeptic reading the Bible to an avowed communist reading our constitution. Critical thinking that requires evidence based conclusions is a good thing. Skepticism as system does not compare with critical thinking. They have a clear anti-religious agenda and therefore they are closer to Communist thought which has the same premise than impartial critical thinking. I have yet to dialogue with a skeptic who made an honest impartial inquiry to find truth.


Thank God that Thomas Jefferson lead the battle to separate church and state. Some of the rigid, my way or the highway, closed minds on this thread have even called his ideas; “rantings.”
Scary.

“...legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.”
― Thomas Jefferson, Letters of Thomas Jefferson

“Where the preamble declares that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed, by inserting the word "Jesus Christ," so that it should read "a departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion." The insertion was rejected by a great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of it's protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mahometan, the Hindoo, and infidel of every denomination.”
― Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography of Thomas Jefferson

“The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.”
― John Adams

“Every new & successful example therefore of a perfect separation between ecclesiastical and civil matters, is of importance. And I have no doubt that every new example, will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt. will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.
[Letter to Edward Livingston, 10 July 1822 - Writings 9:100--103]”
― James Madison, James Madison: Writings

“Christianity may be good and Satanism evil. Under the Constitution, however, both are neutral. This is an important, but difficult, concept for many law enforcement officers to accept. They are paid to uphold the penal code, not the Ten Commandments … The fact is that far more crime and child abuse has been committed by zealots in the name of God, Jesus and Mohammed than has ever been committed in the name of Satan. Many people don’t like that statement, but few can argue with it.”
― Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

“Those who would renegotiate the boundaries between church and state must therefore answer a difficult question: why would we trade a system that has served us so well for one that has served others so poorly?”
― Sandra Day O'Connor


First of all since we are discussing the Founders we can dismiss the comments of Carl Sagan and Sandra as irrelevant to this discussion.

Secondly, what I called the "rantings of Jefferson" were his private views on supernatural events in the Bible and not his views on good government. Most of the other founders would not have accepted his ravings on the Bible either; but they did agree with him on good moral government; so I stand in good company on that point.

Let's look again at the Declaration:
All the founders signed their names to a firm persuasion of the following:
Belief in a Creator, His laws of nature, that all men were created equal, self-evident truth that is beyond reasonable debate, a Supreme Judge, and that the success of the nation depended on divine providence. There's no wiggle room on these points--they all signed that document. This is the moral basis of the country and that moral basis is Biblical morality, not any other morality. The founders were abundantly clear in their writings that they believed in the morals of Jesus.

The skeptics on this thread are not coming out and saying they subscribe to each of those points declared in the Declaration, they are only agreeing to parts of it. This tells me the skepticism expressed here is incompatible with the beliefs of the Founders and that they could not have honestly signed the document which began the formation of America. If you discard the Declaration as not being a legal document in force, well then you have no historical argument either for the equality of all men. This specific portion of the document was used to abolish slavery. It was argued that every document that followed was founded upon the premise of that which gave birth to the nation which included the equality of all men. I agree with that line of reasoning.

Everything since that Declaration that they wrote also needs to be interpreted in light of that document which they signed. No one ever said later (to my knowledge) that they did not believe in what they signed.

Everything written or enacted after that point were intended to uphold "belief in a Creator, His laws of nature, that all men were created equal, self-evident truth that is beyond reasonable debate, a Supreme Judge, and that the success of the nation depended on divine providence."

When John Adams says--“The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.” He is not saying it was not founded on Biblical morals or the general principles of Christianity.

John Adams also says, the general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.

The Christian religion is, above all the religions that ever prevailed or existed in ancient or modern times, the religion of wisdom, virtue, equity and humanity.

Suppose a nation in some distant region should take the Bible for their only law book and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited. . . . What a Eutopia – what a Paradise would this region be!

I have examined all religions, and the result is that the Bible is the best book in the world.

What Adams is saying is that we founded this nation on the principles and morals of Christianity but we did not declare it a Christian nation or a Christian government because that would require a union of Church and State and that is what they wanted to avoid. However neither did they wish to establish an amoral or irreligious government either. They founded the nation on the general moral principles of the Christianity but the religion or faith of Christianity was kept outside the sphere of the government. No one had done this before in history.

James Madison also professed his personal beliefs as follows:
A watchful eye must be kept on ourselves lest, while we are building ideal monuments of renown and bliss here, we neglect to have our names enrolled in the Annals of Heaven.

I have sometimes thought there could not be a stronger testimony in favor of religion or against temporal enjoyments, even the most rational and manly, than for men who occupy the most honorable and gainful departments and [who] are rising in reputation and wealth, publicly to declare their unsatisfactoriness by becoming fervent advocates in the cause of Christ; and I wish you may give in your evidence in this way.

Madison is supporting the Christian cause and influence in this country but yet he is still opposed to making Christianity a state religion or a test of office. There is no conflict to in being a strong Christian and also holding to the separation of Church and state.

In his memorial and remonstrance he says,
The Religion then of every man must be left to the conviction and conscience of every man; and it is the right of every man to exercise it as these may dictate. This right is in its nature an unalienable right. It is unalienable, because the opinions of men, depending only on the evidence contemplated by their own minds cannot follow the dictates of other men: It is unalienable also, because what is here a right towards men, is a duty towards the Creator.

Jefferson
He supported the morals of Jesus:
The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend all to the happiness of man.
The practice of morality being necessary for the well being of society, He [God] has taken care to impress its precepts so indelibly on our hearts that they shall not be effaced by the subtleties of our brain. We all agree in the obligation of the moral principles of Jesus and nowhere will they be found delivered in greater purity than in His discourses.

I am a Christian in the only sense in which He wished anyone to be: sincerely attached to His doctrines in preference to all others.

I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ.

So while Jefferson was strident about the separation of church and state he was also equally adamant about building a moral society on the principles that Jesus taught.

All of this goes again to prove--the skepticism expressed on this thread does not embody the founding ideals of America. However at the same we are not a Christian nation in the religious sense of requiring the Christian faith as a test of office. The separation of the Church and State was always intended. But think about that phrase--they did not say the separation of paganism and the state, or the separation of Islam and the state. It is very clear by this phrase that they expected most of the nation would be Christian. But they also intended for there to be freedom of religion of any kind, providing it would not be allowed to overthrow our moral basis of government.






Last edited by Thunderstick; 07/17/19.