Originally Posted by Thunderstick
Originally Posted by Starman
Originally Posted by jaguartx


The truth is the truth, with or without the Bible.


heaven and hell exist in your mind only because you read it in a book,
or you started believing someone who told you those places exist.

Originally Posted by Thunderstick

The death and resurrection story from the very beginning was shared on the basis of fact.


So for christians the resurrection of Jesus is not based on their FAITH / BELIEF..?
If christians knew it as FACT , why would they need to trust in their FAITH..?

def. of faith: = strong belief based on spiritual conviction rather than proof.

PROOF is needed to demonstrate a claim as FACT ..Thus FAITH cannot be FACT based,
because facts require proof - if you have proof establishing fact ,then its not faith.

Christians with their lack of proof thus does not permit them to establish fact, and if they did have such
it would nullify their need for faith.
Christians overwhelmingly rely on their faith simply because faith [or beliefs] don't require facts, evidence, proof or truth.


There is some circular reasoning here. On the same criteria you cannot prove that Jesus never rose from the dead. You were not there--you did not guard the tomb to confirm the presence of the body till decay. In your belief system you choose unbelief--yes a belief system that is based on faith in your own rational conclusions on what to doubt with a high degree of certainty. Furthermore your approach would invalidate all history as fact because you cannot personally validate the events as an eye-witness. However on the basis of faith in the historical evidence professors teach history. They look at the evidence and try to make reasonable conclusions and then they teach history.

Disputing the evidence for the resurrection of Christ is equal to trying to dispute that the American Revolution actually occurred. We all "believe" it occurred on the basis of evidence. We have a strong faith in the certainty of because of the reasonably indisputable evidence from the historical record.

Likewise:
1. we have reasonably indisputable historical evidence from various sources that Jesus was crucified in a public event
2. we have indisputable evidence that some of the early believers "claimed" that He also arose because they were eyewitness of His resurrected body
3. they spread the stories of their resurrection claims throughout the whole world
4. the world was hostile to the resurrection claims of the early Christians
5. the apostles and early Christians were put to death for making these claims and promoting the teachings of Christ
6. the early Christians did not have the favor or aid of the government to protect their faith
7. the story continued to spread and grow and could not be dismissed
8. all the events surrounding the death and crucifixion were in the gospel accounts and could be investigated and disproven
9. the critics and enemies of Christianity were never successful in refuting those claims and the church grew
10. Diocletion ordered all the Scriptures apprehended and burnt and Christians executed if they would not recant their faith
11. But the story grew to the point where the succeeding Roman Emperor Constantine officially embraced Christianity. While this also began to introduce some corruptions into the church it still establishes the fact that the basic story of Jesus was validated on the basis of evidence.
12. Emporer Julian comes along and tries to make intellectual arguments to dismiss the resurrection of Christ. His arguments fail and the story grows even further.

Friends, in the early ages of Christianity when it was being persecuted, everyone had access to the data needed to refute the resurrection claims--more data than we have today. Eye-witnesses could be interviewed, stories of the gospels could be investigated, the public crucifixion under Pontius Pilate could be verified. The man Jesus was crucified by the Romans and guarded because Jesus said in advance He would rise again--what happened to the body? The only thing the critics needed to do was prove that Christ never arose.

Our faith is based on indisputable evidence. The Bible defines our faith as such:
Quote
Now faith is the reality (or assurance or substance as some translations say) of what is hoped for, the proof (or evidence as some translations say) of what is not seen Heb.11:1


Our faith is a strong belief based on reasonably indisputable evidence. Unbelief is based upon blind faith that refuses to acknowledge the testimony of reasonable evidence because of a strong prejudice against moral absolutes.


All these things you state about early Christian teachings and writings could also be stated for The Book of Morman.
Smith had no backing.
The gov't and all established religions tried to stamp out his teachings.
He was killed for his teachings.
His followers were driven out into the wilderness.

Yet they persisted and prospered. Does this make their beliefs true?

Then we could ask the same questions for the teachings of Ellen G White. Was she a true prophet of God?


People who choose to brew up their own storms bitch loudest about the rain.